Why did Harbingers mobility need to be reduced so much?

[Otto.6495]

In the big official thread that detailed the changes for the various classes elite specs, they generally broke down and explained their reasoning for most changes for most classes, including both buffs and nerfs. For the Harbinger shrouds two mobility skills, they didn't explain anything, just slipped it into the big list of changes near the bottom of the Harb section. I'm curious why this reduction was needed? It was one of my favorite aspects of the Harbinger builds I played in the first Beta, and it didn't feel like it was super overpowered when compared some mobility options that other classes already had or were getting in their new Elite specs. And mobility was one of the things i felt most lacking in most of the Necro builds i enjoy today, so i was really excited to get some good mobility added.

 

I'm not gonna be too dramatic and say it's literally unplayable in it's current state in todays Beta, but the reduction is noticeable, both the the CD reductions and the range reductions. In the first beta, I felt like i could really easily move from one target to the next, between the shroud 3 and shroud 4, and shroud 3's lower CD made it available pretty often. In this Beta, i'm using the 2 dashes to get a bit closer to the next target, but it's usually not enough to get me all the way there, just kinda halfway and then i run the rest. And with the increased CD on shroud 3 dash, i am finding myself having to wait a of time just slowly running between mobs.

 

Again, it's not like this is unplayable, i just miss it, and i'm curious why it needed to be taken away. I don't do much ranked PVP, didn't try that at all in the first beta, but was this mobility really OP in that setting? If that's the case, why couldn't the reduction just be a PVP only change? I don't think it broke anything in Open World roaming and other PVE content.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Otto.6495

[LucianDK.8615]

And with the dps nosediving, its difficult to see anything compelling about the Harbinger.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

How tiring, too much King fu is it? To nerf mobility...leave us with that at least. Won't need to buy any additional templates with this spec atleast.

[Esorono.1039]

Yeah, tested with both power and condition, it takes a while for the damage to even rack up high enough with the blight to be decent enough to outdo Scourge or Reaper, but usually by then the mobs are already dead. But Harbinger by then is already dead as well since it is at 12k hp. Also Voracious Arc feels much lower of a range than Devouring Cut, while Devouring Cut has too long of a cast time for it's leap length without quickness.

[KlausKNT.9302]

Harbringer on beta test 1 was fragile but have some mobility to run. Now Harbringer its fragile and lost some mobility? And dont get invul? block, invisibility etc.? - any point to play IT? 😉

 

[Esorono.1039]

7 minutes ago, KlausKNT.9302 said:

Harbringer on beta test 1 was fragile but have some mobility to run. Now Harbringer its fragile and lost some mobility? And dont get invul? block, invisibility etc.? - any point to play IT? 😉

 

It's really good if you want to show off how good at the game you are. "I play a light armor class with 12k health, no active defenses, and no mobility, takes forever for damage to ramp, and can still kill people!" XD

[Rym.1469]

I agree. I don't feel like the mobility nerfs were necessary, even in sPvP. It was a lot of mobility, but allowed to dip out of bad fights quickly and tank less damage. 

It was also a thing that, coupled with a lot more fragile nature, made Harbinger feel different to other Necro builds. 

It still has better mobility than other Necro specs, but it no longer feels like a real Harbinger's characteristic and a bonus for giving up defenses.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Rym.1469
Lol

[Dadnir.5038]

They probably nerfed the mobility as a trade off for the "increased survivability" that removing blight is supposed to add.

NB.: Also after the change it will no longer be 12k Hp but 14k HP.

[KrHome.1920]

Since shroud 3 and 4 remove 15 blight and have extremely low cooldowns in PvE, harbinger won't sit at 14k HP that often.

For the competitive modes builds that pick CPC, spectral ring and either spectral walk or wurm can somehow manage to survive by keeping their targets at a distance and avoiding a deadeye or ranger nuke. But this isn't a fun playstyle at all - it's constant tryhard kiting.

Transfusion does not work in harbinger shroud currently - I hope this is only a bug as this is a key sustain trait for harbinger.

[XECOR.2814]

22 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Since shroud 3 and 4 remove 15 blight and have extremely low cooldowns in PvE, harbinger won't sit at 14k HP that often.

For the competitive modes builds that pick CPC, spectral ring and either spectral walk or wurm can somehow manage to survive by keeping their targets at a distance and avoiding a deadeye or ranger nuke. But this isn't a fun playstyle at all - it's constant tryhard kiting.

Transfusion does not work in harbinger shroud currently - I hope this is only a bug as this is a key sustain trait for harbinger.

Transfusion is not and never will be a self sustain feature outside pve and even in pve its healing is not the highest valued kind of defense. Heal numbers are extremely low in wvw and pvp.
After talking walk, ring and wurm you are essentially playing scuffed core in terms of effectiveness and just a lot more risk to get the same or inferior result.

[XECOR.2814]

Anet is not consistent with their words when they say harbinger is flipping the necro gameplay on its head in the changes thread and then increasing cd's on utility and reducing range on mobility, reducing resustain.
I am 100% sure they didnt implement utility in shroud cause they grabbed the normal shroud code which doesnt allow utility and its too kittened to implement utility in it. Or they just didnt think abt it which is worse.
The spec is dead we should move on.

 

[wolfyrik.2017]

Harbinger was prety much the only EoD spec I was even remotely excited for. Now it's just kinda boring. Like all the rest. This is a bad expac for elite specs, so far.

[Crikk.3854]

The thing that bothers me the most about shroud 3 and 4 is actually the Blight removal.  I mean, in beta 1 the point of shroud was to build up Blight for that "high risk, high reward" damage.  But now, I can go into shroud and if I use skills 3 and 4 to close, I wind up with less Blight than when I started???

Took my a while to figure out why my max Blight seemed to be about 10. 😝

And if you're not trying to max Blight to max damage, why even play the spec?  As I said elsewhere, they're basically encouraging you to *not* ever use skills 3 or 4.

The whole spec is just such an aimless mess right now.  Beta 1 version (even with lame "press button, get boons" elixirs) was just so much better (in my opinion).

[Otto.6495]

22 hours ago, Crikk.3854 said:

The thing that bothers me the most about shroud 3 and 4 is actually the Blight removal.  I mean, in beta 1 the point of shroud was to build up Blight for that "high risk, high reward" damage.  But now, I can go into shroud and if I use skills 3 and 4 to close, I wind up with less Blight than when I started???

Took my a while to figure out why my max Blight seemed to be about 10. 😝

And if you're not trying to max Blight to max damage, why even play the spec?  As I said elsewhere, they're basically encouraging you to *not* ever use skills 3 or 4.

The whole spec is just such an aimless mess right now.  Beta 1 version (even with lame "press button, get boons" elixirs) was just so much better (in my opinion).

This is actually a really good point, and something i was feeling but didn't quite put my finger on. I honestly kinda liked the original intent of Blight being a 'high risk, high reward', but just wanted a bit more reward or interaction for the risk... I don't think i really wanted so many blight dumps... or if they were adding blight dumps, they should be outside of shroud. While you're staying in shroud, the whole point of it felt like a squishy high risk situation, but where you also got high dps.

 

It's funny how they removed the out of shroud regen, saying it didn't make any sense with the spec, and at the same time rebalanced the spec all around dumping blight when blight build up was the original intent.

 

P.S. i do not wanna be as negative as some are being, i don't think the spec is LITERAL GARBAGE, LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE, and i honestly do have a fair bit of faith in the Anet team. I just hope they can land in the right spot with these specs. I know that they're getting feedback from different players that are completely opposed to the feedback that the next player gives. There's another thread right next to this one on the forums right now that is asking for Harb to be changed into something that removes everything i like about the current and previous versions of the spec. So i recognize that the devs are in a nearly unwinnable position.

[XECOR.2814]

@Crikk.3854 the reward for blight is very little compared to the disadvantage of losing max hp. I think its better that we got something to reduce the blight in shroud. You are not thinking about competitive modes.