Buffing Off-hand Dagger (Update 1)

[Swagg.9236]

Main goal:  Increase user survivability and area control via buffed field hazard threats, rotation disruption and an extra movement option for more flexible terrain negotiation and combat repositioning.

Update 1:  It remains a PBAoE weapon kit.  It also has zero defenses against the metagame if anyone is to run it with any set other than Weaver, and frankly, people generally run Weaver with focus anyway because it's just so much easier to stall out enemies via invuln, projectile mitigation, and the ranged CC with no travel time.  Offhand dagger doesn't need much in order to better survive trading blows with the worst of the metagame, so it's mostly come in the form of forcing enemies to make hard decisions about where or how they want to move once the kit starts setting down decision-forcers like [Ring of Fire],  [Transmute Frost], and the buffed [Churning Earth].  Beyond that, the flexibility to reposition within the mid-range fight with a targeted leap on [Updraft] also helps the kit adjust for certain attacks like [Burning Speed] or just make space for scepter attacks.

FIRE

Spoiler

[Ring of Fire] (4)

For enemies, the pass-through effect now functions like Dragonhunter [Test of Faith], inflicting unblockable damage upon pass-through (burning tied to this damage packet).

• Pass-through Burning increased from 1 stack (2s) to 2 stacks (4s)
• Pass-through Damage: [PvP/WvW] (0.6) | [PvE] (1.2)

[Fire Grab] (5)

This strike is now always a critical hit vs burning targets.  Deals increased damage to targets based on how many stacks of burning they have; extends the duration of any active burning stacks on struck foes.  Range increased from 300 to 425 (similar to the Engineer flamethrower autoattack).  Baseline strike damage increased in [PvP/WvW].

• Damage: [PvP/WvW] (1.25) | [PvE] (1.75)
• Damage Increase per Burn Stack: [PvP/WvW] 20% (Max 100%) | [PvE] 10% (Max 300%)
• Burn Durations Extended: [PvP/WvW] 2½s | [PvE] 5s.

WATER

Spoiler

[Cleansing Wave] (5)

• Effect radius increased from 240 to 300.
• If this skill affects an ally without conditions, it grants that ally a unique buff and the skill recharges faster:  [Cleansing Water] (15s).
• Cleansing Water (15s): Convert the next incoming condition into Regeneration (3s).
• Recharge Reduced per Affected Ally Without Conditions: 10%

Gives this skill a pre-combat support element (PvP/WvW) or possibly a mid-combat support element against certain enemies/encounters with predictable condition attacks (PvE).

AIR

Spoiler

[Ride the Lightning] (4)

• Recharge reduced from 30s to 25s (still retains its "halve recharge on hit" function).
• Skill can now be used in midair once again (disable this feature in WvW if you want; it would probably have to be an entirely separate skill considering how spaghetti GW2’s code is, though).

[Updraft] (5)

Instead of locking the user into a backwards roll animation, this skill is now an animation clone of Engineer [Jump Shot] (800 range, ground-targeted leap; retains its current 1s evasion period).  The "delayed launch” effect appears at the user's initial location when this skill is activated.

• Recharge reduced from 40s to 35s.
• Now grants superspeed (3s) and cures movement-impairing conditions in addition to the current swiftness.

EARTH

Spoiler

[Earthquake] (4)

This skill is now unblockable.  Against targets that are immune to CC (i.e. those with active stability or a defiance bar), this skill now deals a large, extra packet of damage.  Against downed foes, this skill now deals a fixed amount of downed health damage.

• Damage vs CC Immune Targets: [PvP/WvW] (1.7) | [PvE] (2.25)
• Damage vs Downed Foe Health: 33%
• Unblockable

[Churning Earth] (5)

Now has an initial strike (billowing dust effect) which occurs immediately upon cast start-up.  This strike damages, blinds and slows foes within the 360 impact radius.  This skill now also blocks projectiles during its channel.

• Number of Targets: 5
• Damage: (0.3)
• Blindness (3s): Next outgoing attack misses.
• Slow (2s): Skills and actions are slower.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Swagg.9236

[Noodle Ant.1605]

this and the other suggestions (on scepter) sound more like reworks rather than just buffs. i wasnt really expecting any significant functionality changes, just number increases/cd decreases or added boons/conditions/effects

also your suggestions include lots of added ground targeting, which i honestly dont think is everyones cup of tea

but if this is like a semi-personal wishlist then dont mind me

(edit) some feedback: aegis imo doesnt belong on elementalist. i can get on board with knockback on water trident since you cant really hit anything ranged with it anyway, would serve to create a gap if opponents get too close. everything else i wont really talk much about

Edited December 22, 2021 by Noodle Ant.1605

[Infusion.7149]

I have to agree with Noodle Ant.

Offhand dagger has existed since core days as a melee range PBAOE weapon.

There's no "1550" range movement skills so the Ride to Lightning change doesn't make any sense. The only "weak" skill on offhand dagger is Frost Aura/Transmute Frost, which isn't spectacular but Transmute Frost still does some damage and instant chill rather than waiting to be hit.

When is the last time you've seen water immob things? That's powercreep plain and simple. Water has always either chilled or applied vuln

[solemn.9608]

These suggestions are all nerfs except for air.

Noooo

[Stallic.2397]

Everything seems pretty cool except fire. I would definitely buff ring of fire. But would rather just have it pulse burns after it's initiation. Fire grab is actually pretty good as is in my opinion. People want it stronger more cause Eles base stats are weak. Not the skill.

 

Instant transmute frost is pretty cool. 

 

Stomp on earth 4 should grant stab for each target hit. 

[Swagg.9236]

11 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I have to agree with Noodle Ant.

Offhand dagger has existed since core days as a melee range PBAOE weapon.

There's no "1550" range movement skills so the Ride to Lightning change doesn't make any sense. The only "weak" skill on offhand dagger is Frost Aura/Transmute Frost, which isn't spectacular but Transmute Frost still does some damage and instant chill rather than waiting to be hit.

When is the last time you've seen water immob things? That's powercreep plain and simple. Water has always either chilled or applied vuln

Scepter/dagger was used for burst even before Fresh Air existed as a trait.  Unfortunately, it was only viable because attaining to air used to be a free 2k-ish passive burst by itself, but let's not pretend that s/d wasn't ever a thing (and passive traits shouldn't carry builds anyway--even if they generally do regardless).

The original Ride the Lightning (due to its baseline effect duration) caused the user to travel roughly 1550 range units if the skill was allowed to completely resolve without hitting a target.  It's not so much a matter of the skill traveling a fixed distance as it is the skill's effect causes the user to travel at a speed of about 600 units per second (and the original version just lasted longer than it does now).  Tooltips were never super accurate at launch.  This would actually be a super easy change because you just make the RtL effect last another half second or so.

At the end of the day, Transmute Frost is just another genetic button to thoughtlessly mash in most instances.  If it were given a more PvP-oriented dimension, PvE would not miss its meager DPS input.  Moreover, remember when torment was released and billed as the new, Necromancer-exclusive condition that was supposed to actually help make condi necro viable (because there was a time when that class used to be irredeemably bad in all content)?  Remember when alacrity was a Mesmer thing?  Point is, GW2 has no justifiable flavor conventions, and adding 1.5s of immob as a purely defensive option within a suite of healing skills is not going to completely break the game worse than any other patch drop has.

All this said, Noodle Ant actually outed me already:  both of the "Buffing X" posts I made were formed within the context of my playing a surprisingly fun (as in it actually has a legitimate playstyle and tactic set to it) CORE scepter/dagger build.  Even if it's an arguably very dumb build that merely features a bizarrely high level of general effectiveness if used correctly, I'm not surprised to see some people counter any ideas here with the "legacy purpose" of either weapon (despite scepter being used basically nowhere and OH dagger only getting carried by the overpowered, autopilot nature of Weaver's rotations).  There's also the problem of how badly core weapons generally rely on gimmick powercreep from elite specs.

The weapons aren't good.  They're just duct-taped up with passive powercreep from TRAIT LINES.  After playing with the core set, I can safely say that I've identified specific shortcomings with respect to the kinds of unfair match-ups that can faceoff against it.  It's just a shame that the whole discussion about what a more versatile scepter/dagger set might be is preemptively poisoned by elite specs or what kind of "flavor" (i.e. what boons or effects should be "allowed") the weapons should feature.

[Infusion.7149]

Regardless of what I think , CMC already stated he liked core dagger+dagger ele so your suggestion of redoing all of it just to fit some build you made seems unlikely.

[Exzen.2976]

I also love playing scepter dagger, but you must also understand that buffing these weapons will also buff other builds that use them, which throws class balance off. 

 

If these builds started off as balanced, they will no longer be after significant buffs.

 

If you want to buff your build to make it more viable, then rather than looking to buff the weapons, you need to think more carefully about what makes scepter dagger less viable than the alternatives and try and come up with a solution for that, which won't throw off all other ele builds. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Swagg.9236]

13 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Regardless of what I think , CMC already stated he liked core dagger+dagger ele so your suggestion of redoing all of it just to fit some build you made seems unlikely.

That's just a guy's opinion.  In reality, more than half of the suggestions I made for OH dagger really wouldn't impact how the skills are respectively used now.  Making Earthquake and Updraft into GTAoEs doesn't do anything but open up their baseline versatility.  Turning Fire Grab into a target-seeking movement skill (that still has an AoE strike radius) really isn't going to impact any current theory behind its current "most effective use."  I'll admit that the Ring of Fire and Transmute Frost ideas are drastic, but the former is does indeed work fine now (so if it remained the same it wouldn't be an issue) while the latter could probably use any change at all because it's so bland.

Regardless of what somebody thinks (or their position), it's not hard to see that the above suggestions don't really impact HOW any of the current skills are used now.  I also don't entirely expect anything to change.  If anything, it just goes to show how bad the gw2 staff is at iterating the game if I can spend a single afternoon compiling precise changes to benefit a particular build without completely retooling a kit's preestablished "purpose."

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

That's just a guy's opinion.  In reality, more than half of the suggestions I made for OH dagger really wouldn't impact how the skills are respectively used now.  Making Earthquake and Updraft into GTAoEs doesn't do anything but open up their baseline versatility.  Turning Fire Grab into a target-seeking movement skill (that still has an AoE strike radius) really isn't going to impact any current theory behind its current "most effective use."  I'll admit that the Ring of Fire and Transmute Frost ideas are drastic, but the former is does indeed work fine now (so if it remained the same it wouldn't be an issue) while the latter could probably use any change at all because it's so bland.

Regardless of what somebody thinks (or their position), it's not hard to see that the above suggestions don't really impact HOW any of the current skills are used now.  I also don't entirely expect anything to change.  If anything, it just goes to show how bad the gw2 staff is at iterating the game if I can spend a single afternoon compiling precise changes to benefit a particular build without completely retooling a kit's preestablished "purpose."

"Just a guy" but CMC is on the balance team. 😆

[Swagg.9236]

1 hour ago, Exzen.2976 said:

I also love playing scepter dagger, but you must also understand that buffing these weapons will also buff other builds that use them, which throws class balance off. 

 

If these builds started off as balanced, they will no longer be after significant buffs.

 

If you want to buff your build to make it more viable, then rather than looking to buff the weapons, you need to think more carefully about what makes scepter dagger less viable than the alternatives and try and come up with a solution for that, which won't throw off all other ele builds. 

That's really the issue.  I'm using a build that forgoes the usual, passive and overbearing defenses that most ele builds use (either offensive weaver or support spam tempest).  Frankly, if you ask me, it'd be a lot more interesting if we buffed and changed core sets to promote versatility and then culled the passive defenses that pigeonhole every ele into taking the weapons that have the most built-in evasions and teleports.

It'd probably come down to making weaver and tempest less autopilot and increasing the overall ground that a lot of "bad" skills can cover.   Basically, give ele the ability to break fights and re-engage using sheer distance (it's super fun in PvP if you ever want to try it) rather than just making every ele build stand still and magically evade or heal off everything.  However, everybody in GW2 is generally too comfortable using autopilot to fight autopilot, so it's difficult to imagine people wanting to play builds that require some active input over what they have now (particularly within the environment established by the generic meta).

[Swagg.9236]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

"Just a guy" but CMC is on the balance team. 😆

I know that.  Big pile of whoopie that means considering how bland gw2 PvP has traditionally been lmao.

[fuzzyp.6295]

OH Dagger is pretty meh right now, but it doesn't need a major rework. Return some consistency to Fire Grab would be the best way to make it viable again. Ever since the death of Arcane Fury, this move has been pretty poor as the daggers finishing move. I'd like to see it changed along to something like having it always crit on burning targets (with some numbers changed about, perhaps lowing the base damage to compensate) to allow for more consistent finishes. Right now, even if you hit a target on fire, if you don't crit you may only see it hit for around 2-3k... which is pretty poor for the finishing move.

Earthquake is also pretty fine the way it is. Churring Earth is probably the one that needs some change. It's still painful long to charge up and the damage is still mostly focused on the bleeds. I honestly feel bad anytime an Ele uses it when fighting me lol why would you subject yourself to that charge time.

Water and Air skills are pretty good as is and buffing them just for the sake of buffing them is kind of a waste. I don't really like the new updraft, but its fine. RtL is also perfectly fine with the on hit conditional.

Yeah, idk, let's just return some damage to Fire Grab and maybe buff the pass through burn damage on Ring of Fire to make it a pseudo control skill where you can either stay and fight the ele close range or walk across it and get some nasty damage to get away.

[Jski.6180]

A lot of what wrong with off hand dagger on ele is from the hard cc dmg nerf to the earth skill set losing a major dmging skill. Sadly there been no real update to the update so we are left with a high cd slow cc skill that has very low dmg. Maybe if anet gose back and adds more effect to earthquake and churring earth or drop there cd like they should do for all of the hard cc and soft cc skills that where hit over all in the last major update.

I would like to see

[Exzen.2976]

9 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

That's really the issue.  I'm using a build that forgoes the usual, passive and overbearing defenses that most ele builds use (either offensive weaver or support spam tempest).  Frankly, if you ask me, it'd be a lot more interesting if we buffed and changed core sets to promote versatility and then culled the passive defenses that pigeonhole every ele into taking the weapons that have the most built-in evasions and teleports.

It'd probably come down to making weaver and tempest less autopilot and increasing the overall ground that a lot of "bad" skills can cover.   Basically, give ele the ability to break fights and re-engage using sheer distance (it's super fun in PvP if you ever want to try it) rather than just making every ele build stand still and magically evade or heal off everything.  However, everybody in GW2 is generally too comfortable using autopilot to fight autopilot, so it's difficult to imagine people wanting to play builds that require some active input over what they have now (particularly within the environment established by the generic meta).

Yes, to buffing core ele, it could certainly use something to help it shine without further buffing tempest, Weaver and Catalyst.

 

But to generally suggest that tempest and Weaver especially are autopilot is laughable. Sure, some builds can be built for that, but you can also build core ele to be packed with defence if you want. Fresh Air Weaver for example is harder than anything you could build on core and doesn't bring any additional passive defenses. If anything the "passive" healing you would get on swap from traiting water makes core FA have more "autopilot".

 

These sort of comments water down the valid comments you are making about buffing core ele. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:31 AM, Swagg.9236 said:

Main goals:  Give the weapon an actual identity.  These changes add some extra area control and damage potential, but the collective kit mostly works to increase the user's survivability and terrain negotiation by just going ham on movement options.  Could be a decent pair with dagger main-hand after this, but it would also synergize very well as a support option for scepter.

FIRE

  Hide contents

[Ring of Fire] (4)

- This skill is now ground-targeted with a range of 900; radius reduced from 240 to 180; activation time increased from ¼s to ½s; initial damage decreased from (0.5) to (0.3) in PvP/WvW.

- Pass-through burning increased from 1 stack (2s) to 2 stacks (4s); the pass-through burning now functions like Dragonhunter [Test of Faith] (unblockable); Damage: [PvP/WvW] (0.5) | [PvE] (0.6)

[Fire Grab] (5)

- This skill is now a fire-flavor clone of the current (as of DEC 2021) [Ride the Lightning]; deals increased damage to targets based on how many stacks of burning they have; extends the duration of any active burning stacks on struck foes.

- Recharge:  [PvP/WvW] 40s | [PvE] 20s; there is no “half-recharge on hit” function.

- Damage: [PvP/WvW] (1.0) | [PvE] (1.5); Damage Increase per Burn Stack: [PvP/WvW] 10% (Max 100%) | [PvE] 10% (Max 500%)

- Burn Durations Extended: [PvP/WvW] 2½s | [PvE] 5s.

WATER

  Hide contents

[Transmute Frost] (4b)

- Activation reduced from ½s to 0 (instant); recharge increased from 10s to 30s.

- Healing increased from 490 (0.5) to 808 (0.5); no longer grants regeneration, but instead grants aegis (5s) to affected allies.

- No longer inflicts damage.  Now grants a “leave behind AoE trail effect” equivalent to Engineer [Slick Shoes] (duration of effect: 3s | duration of trail AoEs: 3s | AoEs cannot be evaded or blocked; targets only affected by a single AoE once per duration). AoE trail slows (2½s) and immobilizes (1½s) struck foes.

[Cleansing Wave] (5)

- Now a clone of Tempest [“Wash the Pain Away!”] (recharge set to 30s). Each healing packet cures 1 condition and heals for 490 (0.5) health. The third packet radius is set to 360 (down from the original 600 radius).

- [Evasive Arcana] trait retains original functionality.

AIR

  Hide contents

[Ride the Lightning] (4)

- Recharge reduced from 30s to 25s (still retains its "half recharge on hit" function); maximum distance traveled increased from 1200 to original 1550 (total baseline duration of RtL effect on player increased by 0.5s).

- Skill can now be used in midair once again (disable this feature in WvW if you want; it would probably have to be an entirely separate skill considering how spaghetti GW2’s code is, though).

[Updraft] (5)

- Recharge reduced from 40s to 30s.

- Now grants superspeed (3s) and cures movement-imparing conditions in addition to the current swiftness.

- Instead of locking the user into a backwards roll animation, this skill is now an effective clone of Engineer [Jump Shot] (with a 1s evasion period). Skill retains its original “delayed launch” effect (no “landing effect”).

EARTH

  Hide contents

[Earthquake] (4)

- This is now an unblockable, 450-range, ground-targeted AoE attack (same animation and functionality as Warrior [Stomp]; retains blast finisher effect).

 

Why are you trying to make offhand dagger into some pepega level "range" weapon though? It's a melee weapon with gap closer skills. What you're proposing is pure powercreep though. Weapon need some smoll buffs here and there with bug fixes and most important, polish it to become more smooth to use.
Ring of Fire needs to apply burn also within the ring itself and ring needs more stacks of burn while crossing it + a bit higher damage on cast time. Maybe not even applying burning within the ring itself, it could become a cleanse for you, like: "If you or your ally pass through ring, you 'burn away' 1 condition, this effect trigger once every 2s".
Fire Grab needs to be more consistent and reliable with a bit wider cone to actually hit something, I would also suggest increased crit chance by 15-20% against enemies with burn, to actually do damage, since more often than not I see that Burning Speed crits twice as often as Fire Grab, which is a bit ridiculous.
Transmute Frost could just remove condition and/or apply 3s of Resistance... 
Cleansing Wave could heal for additional amount for each removed condition.
Ride the Lightning doesn't really need anything? Most annoying thing that can happen is to get random immobilize, fear, taunt, whatever, so only thing I could potentally see here is "you ignore abc conditions while in the middle of traveling with this skill", so if fear was applied in the middle of animation, you'll still get that fear condition, but you wouldn't be feared and breaking skill, but hard cc would still work on it.
Updraft curing Immobilize, Chill and Cripple would be great already.
Earthquake could apply slow on hit.
Churning Earth is still slow af to cast, people even after getting hard cc can just get up from ground, go to kitchen, make some sandwitches with tea, then come sit on chair and still walk out of Churning Earth skill without problems...

[Swagg.9236]

6 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Why are you trying to make offhand dagger into some pepega level "range" weapon though? It's a melee weapon with gap closer skills. What you're proposing is pure powercreep though. Weapon need some smoll buffs here and there with bug fixes and most important, polish it to become more smooth to use.
Ring of Fire needs to apply burn also within the ring itself and ring needs more stacks of burn while crossing it + a bit higher damage on cast time. Maybe not even applying burning within the ring itself, it could become a cleanse for you, like: "If you or your ally pass through ring, you 'burn away' 1 condition, this effect trigger once every 2s".
Fire Grab needs to be more consistent and reliable with a bit wider cone to actually hit something, I would also suggest increased crit chance by 15-20% against enemies with burn, to actually do damage, since more often than not I see that Burning Speed crits twice as often as Fire Grab, which is a bit ridiculous.
Transmute Frost could just remove condition and/or apply 3s of Resistance... 
Cleansing Wave could heal for additional amount for each removed condition.
Ride the Lightning doesn't really need anything? Most annoying thing that can happen is to get random immobilize, fear, taunt, whatever, so only thing I could potentally see here is "you ignore abc conditions while in the middle of traveling with this skill", so if fear was applied in the middle of animation, you'll still get that fear condition, but you wouldn't be feared and breaking skill, but hard cc would still work on it.
Updraft curing Immobilize, Chill and Cripple would be great already.
Earthquake could apply slow on hit.
Churning Earth is still slow af to cast, people even after getting hard cc can just get up from ground, go to kitchen, make some sandwitches with tea, then come sit on chair and still walk out of Churning Earth skill without problems...

OH dagger is a melee weapon with gap closer skills?  Plural?  It has one.

The only truly "ranged" element to this change list is the 900 GTAoE suggestion for Ring of Fire (and frankly, I'd be willing to keep it a point-blank AoE if it just had a better "pass-through" effect).  As for the new Fire Grab suggestion, if you used it to do anything but go to a target, you'd have a pretty hard time trying to use the rest of the OH dagger kit offensively.  You're also going to call a 450 leap on Earthquake a "ranged" attack?  That's the definition of melee/mid-range.  Moreover, Updraft having an 800 range leap with no damage tied to it is hardly a ranged "attack" (particularly if you'd rather be there to take advantage of the launch without using a movement skill, you'd need to effectively leap no distance.

Furthermore, the reason why Fire Grab is "bad" compared to Burning Speed isn't necessarily even the damage, it's the fact that it not only has a longer recharge, but it doesn't evade and it has a 300 range compared to Burning Speed's effective 840 (or longer because it's super easy to extend with Lightning Flash as a big circle AoE rather than a directional cone).  I'm not saying make Fire Grab as completely braindead as Burning Speed (the fact that it even got an evade is so silly), but turning it into a gap closer (or free movement speed boost) with an AoE strike and conditional damage ramp up feature is far better than what it is now.  An RtL clone is far more useful and easy to layer with multiple strikes.  As of now, you're probably more likely to get passively/instantly blinded or blocked while trying to use Fire Grab than actually hitting anything with it intentionally.

I'll admit that the Frost idea was me just being saucy and experimental (because that's definitely better than ANOTHER thoughtless PBAoE button).  There are better ways to handle it, I suppose.  The same for cleansing wave, but frankly I think that skill is outright bugged because it seems to inconsistently cure conditions (not sure if it's related to terrain or movement speed, though).

Point is, giving extra movement to the OH dagger kit isn't going to magically remove its usage as a melee option.  It just expands its inherent options and improvised possibilities.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Swagg.9236]

8 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Yes, to buffing core ele, it could certainly use something to help it shine without further buffing tempest, Weaver and Catalyst.

 

But to generally suggest that tempest and Weaver especially are autopilot is laughable. Sure, some builds can be built for that, but you can also build core ele to be packed with defence if you want. Fresh Air Weaver for example is harder than anything you could build on core and doesn't bring any additional passive defenses. If anything the "passive" healing you would get on swap from traiting water makes core FA have more "autopilot".

 

These sort of comments water down the valid comments you are making about buffing core ele. 

Weaver has a lot of buttons, but it's pretty formulaic.  It gets extra skills for free as part of the trait line package, and it generally never experiments with weapon options or movement.  It's designed to find a target, walk into it, and then activate as many passively pulsing damage effects as possible while evading and gaining barrier.  I won't say it's completely effortless, but it often comes down to just muscle memory rather than gauging distance, watching surroundings and using terrain strategically.

Tempest also gets extra buttons for free, and while it can deal a lot of damage, in PvP it's generally more "useful" just healing off hits while running in a circle and spamming passive auras that punish people for successfully striking targets (auras, in concept and execution, are pretty anti-fun).

I won't say that ele's elite specs aren't completely emptyheaded, but I will say that they definitely don't expand any sort of skill ceiling for the class (if anything, they lower it by how much they allow a player can passively do while attacking or moving around in a location).  It's not really fair to say we shouldn't buff core weapon sets just because weaver pulses 9 burn stacks while evading, healing, and gaining barrier on a point anytime it engages anything; or because tempest can full heal an entire party while granting it static auras.  Those are just overtuned aspects that are frankly not even fun to play against.

And frankly, I don't think that any of these suggestions really would contribute to those most oppressive aspects of weaver and tempest because they're mostly tied to positioning options rather than self sustain and pulsing damage.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Exzen.2976]

1 hour ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Weaver has a lot of buttons, but it's pretty formulaic.  It gets extra skills for free as part of the trait line package, and it generally never experiments with weapon options or movement.  It's designed to find a target, walk into it, and then activate as many passively pulsing damage effects as possible while evading and gaining barrier.  I won't say it's completely effortless, but it often comes down to just muscle memory rather than gauging distance, watching surroundings and using terrain strategically.

This is honestly complete nonsense. You show your complete lack of understanding of especs right here. You should be aware that Weaver has (or has previously had) good builds for Sword/Dagger, Sword/Focus, Dagger/Focus, Dagger/Dagger, Scepter/Focus, Staff and I have also had success with scepter/dagger. That is all of the weapons. Fresh Air Scepter Weaver,  which is a commonly used build doesn't rely on passive pulsing damage, evading or barrier. It relies on positioning, good timing etc (everything you noticed you used on Scepter Dagger... funny that), it also isn't remotely tied to formulaic button pressing. Don't pigeon hole a whole espec into a single cele sword build. 

 

Your take on Tempest is also a total nonsense. There are several different tempest builds, again, I have seen builds work with pretty much all weapons, in support, condi and power variants. It isn't all support healers.

 

And yes, buffing any of the weapons will improve all other builds that use them, across the class/especs. It is simple. 

 

I'm all for buffing core ele, but posts like this aren't going to get your desired effect. The weapons simply dont need large buffs (apart from Staff, which does). It would be better to buff core by potentially adding an F5 (like they did with rev), or adding something else that is not available to the especs. Also making sure the core trait lines are all worth taking, so you really feel like you are giving something up when taking an espec line instead. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Exzen.2976 said:

This is honestly complete nonsense. You show your complete lack of understanding of especs right here. You should be aware that Weaver has (or has previously had) good builds for Sword/Dagger, Sword/Focus, Dagger/Focus, Dagger/Dagger, Scepter/Focus, Staff and I have also had success with scepter/dagger. That is all of the weapons. Fresh Air Scepter Weaver,  which is a commonly used build doesn't rely on passive pulsing damage, evading or barrier. It relies on positioning, good timing etc (everything you noticed you used on Scepter Dagger... funny that), it also isn't remotely tied to formulaic button pressing. Don't pigeon hole a whole espec into a single cele sword build. 

 

Your take on Tempest is also a total nonsense. There are several different tempest builds, again, I have seen builds work with pretty much all weapons, in support, condi and power variants. It isn't all support healers.

 

And yes, buffing any of the weapons will improve all other builds that use them, across the class/especs. It is simple. 

 

I'm all for buffing core ele, but posts like this aren't going to get your desired effect. The weapons simply dont need large buffs (apart from Staff, which does). It would be better to buff core by potentially adding an F5 (like they did with rev), or adding something else that is not available to the especs. Also making sure the core trait lines are all worth taking, so you really feel like you are giving something up when taking an espec line instead. 

Hey, they exactly did what playerbase has been asking for, the F5 key to core, but somehow they've ended up with making additionally some weird utility skills with Hammer weapon and a whole traitline, they're calling it... oh right, Craptalyst.

[Exzen.2976]

16 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Hey, they exactly did what playerbase has been asking for, the F5 key to core, but somehow they've ended up with making additionally some weird utility skills with Hammer weapon and a whole traitline, they're calling it... oh right, Craptalyst.

Haha, I know right?!

[Swagg.9236]

Looked at all the feedback and made a bunch of changes.

It's still a PBAoE kit, and now every skill in the suggestion box functions identically to how they work now (aside from Updraft which still is described as an 800-range targeted leap--which could still be used on top of the user's location if the user didn't really want to move too far from the launch AoE).  Everything just has targeted buffs here and there.  I did throw in a different rework for Transmute Frost again because, as it stands, it's still super low-energy and pigeonholed into certain (generally passive) specialization choices if it's going to have any sort of decent combat impact.  This one isn't too outlandish, though:  very in-line with the PBAoE nature of most other skills in the kit, so it should flow pretty logically with everything else while providing strong combat disruption and decent support.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Swagg.9236

[Razor.6392]

REVERT UPDRAFT LAZY DEVSs

[Swagg.9236]

On 1/1/2022 at 6:46 PM, Razor.6392 said:

REVERT UPDRAFT LAZY DEVSs

Just aim directly beneath your feet if you want the old effect out of the current, more versatile version.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Swagg.9236

[Razor.6392]

On 1/3/2022 at 3:20 AM, Swagg.9236 said:

Just aim directly beneath your feet if you want the old effect out of the current, more versatile version.

You didn't just call this version 'more versatile' aka better right?