Non-damaging conditions and you | PvP

[Zexanima.7851]

If you ever want to get a taste of what hell feels like play warrior without Warrior's Sprint and Brawler's Recovery. You'll be fighting demons in a bowl of syrup trying to make it those two steps to get on point while the enemy team has already decapped all your points for the next 15 games. In the off chance someone does haphazardly stumble within reach of your 2 inch range you'll think to yourself "I could win", but then you'll remember "win" starts with a W. You know what else starts with a W? Weakness, and that's what you'll have until you're retired and in a nursing home where you finally stand a chance. At least then you'll be afforded the time to think back to when you once tried to log into your warrior but even your loading times were abysmal because you had so much cripple saved up it started affecting your bandwidth. Luckily that's not a problem now though because you can afford lighting fast internet from all that money made trading in blind-coin. Some day though you'll realize it was all worth it, as you're slipping into the sweet release of death you'll think to yourself  "At least I had endure pain."

 

The (somewhat) more serious take

Lets establish some of warriors built in weaknesses first. These are not inherently bad to have, just part of the profession design meant to balance how it works.

 

•  Mobility is on the lower end
• Long animation windup up/Telegraphed animations
• Reliant on single hit, high impact abilities

 

With all these combined it makes warrior overly weak to non-damaging conditions in respect to other professions, in my opinion. Combine this with resistance only affecting damaging conditions, and warrior becomes very very susceptible to them.

• Blind: Anyone who plays warrior knows how frustrating blind is. This single condition can force to burn a cleanse, weapons swap, or stand around twiddling your thumbs till it goes away. News flash, it wont. Warrior has options to deal with it but as easy as it is to be blinded, the impact it has on this profession does not feel proportional. You either run Brawler's Recovery and hope weapon swap cleanses it, burn a "Shake it off!" which is a big cd for an easily re-applied condition, or you swing and miss if you have the luxury of being close enough to do so. By its self I wouldn't mind blind being this strong against warrior but in combination with other control conditions it's very oppressive for how easy it is to get blinded. Rev has some blinds, guardian can have a few, engineer has a good amount, mesmer has a decent amount, ele has some here and there, and you might as well pry your eyes out against thief because you'll never see again anyways. Aside from theif in a 1v1 you can usually play around these but when you start getting in team fights it feels like a swing and a miss every other attack. 
• Chilled: Now, yes, chill sucks to get on any profession. Same can be said for most of these but it specially sucks for warrior. 66% movement speed reduction is a huge mobility hit to an already low mobility profession. Not to mention warrior relies pretty heavily on keeping up consistent pressure with its relatively low cooldown offensive abilities. The hit to cooldown is no where near as impactful as the hit to movement speed though.
• Cripple: Not as bad as chilled but the difference being chilled is fairly hard to come by where as you'll be crippled just for looking at an enemy. Crippled is so common and easy to apply I don't see why they haven't given a global debuff at this point that just cripples everyone every two second and save the people the trouble of applying it. "This skill needs a little somethin' somethin' extra but I don't want to make it too strong...I KNOW, cripple!" - Anet dev probably. Same issue as chilled, lowering mobility on an already low mobility profession.
• Fear: ...well, actually, if you're running Brawler's Recovery (you probably are) then fear isn't too bad considering it's not covered and chained 10,000 times. This one I'll say doesn't particularly affect warriors any more than other professions, maybe less so.
• Immobilize: Don't run warrior's sprint, I dare you.
• Slow: This isn't all that common these days but when you do get slowed and you're animations are already long, you get realllllyyyyy slow. I could go do my taxes while I wait for a slowed warriors eviscerate to land. 
• Taunt: Same as fear, honestly.
• Weakness: More or as common as cripple and basically turns your weapons into rubber squeaky hammers.

 

All the salt aside, these are not what's making or breaking warrior at the moment. It's just one frustrating aspect I felt the need to half heartedly vent about into the void of the internet. Also yes, I'm ignoring that warrior has ranged weapons because, lol. Besides, if you're running ranged weapons on warrior you've already strayed from the path.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Zexanima.7851

[Hotride.2187]

My experience with getting blind spammed, it usually is coming from a thief or a grenade engi.

The thieves who blind spam you are usually not very good; the problem vs thief comes from not being able to dodge their stealth attack (as you dont know when its coming). If they are smoke bombing you they arent really doing the damage they should be doing to get you down.

And the engis who can blind spam you with grenades are a problem for other reasons, mainly the almost perma superspeed, the other condis on their grenades and the decent stability uptime they have. Not to mention the almost perma regen.

Which is not to say that a well timed blind wont ruin your damage, but burning a cleanse for it seems a bit much (considering how your cleanses are either also your heal or your stunbreak, and you have to be sparing with their use...).

For weakness its mostly necro and ranger that can keep its uptime high without sacrificing much else, and with necro its usually the core necros that take 5 years to kill anyway. I think weakness hurts the most against ranger, because its already doing more damage than you are and weakness on top is extra painful. There is also staff thief that can perma weakness you, but any good thief is a problem for war in my experience.

Fear spam is usually coming also from core necro. Taunts are relevant only for renegade, and on it they hurt the most on their cele build, which is already very tanky (and as all celestial condi builds, the build only works because condi can deal high damage despite having a lot of defensive stats, unlike power).

Overall I don't really think its individual conditions that shut you down tbh, its that every class but war (and power thief) has viable access to multiple  non-damaging condis regardless of their build (condi or power) and can output those condis at a sufficient rate to disrupt your gameplay. You can of course play condi war yourself, but your power build has nothing that can put condis on your opponent. Your GS4 is your "best condi" and your dagger 2 is your other condi (you got only 2). And your cleanses have other uses as written above, so you have to be extra smart with them (i.e. you have to play defensively against condi vomit, and condi vomit is usually coming from tanky build and so on).

I've tried playing featherfoot grace, its just not good enough with 45 sec CD. And you need endure pain vs every power build...

[Zexanima.7851]

25 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

My experience with getting blind spammed, it usually is coming from a thief or a grenade engi.

The thieves who blind spam you are usually not very good; the problem vs thief comes from not being able to dodge their stealth attack (as you dont know when its coming). If they are smoke bombing you they arent really doing the damage they should be doing to get you down.

And the engis who can blind spam you with grenades are a problem for other reasons, mainly the almost perma superspeed, the other condis on their grenades and the decent stability uptime they have. Not to mention the almost perma regen.

Which is not to say that a well timed blind wont ruin your damage, but burning a cleanse for it seems a bit much (considering how your cleanses are either also your heal or your stunbreak, and you have to be sparing with their use...).

For weakness its mostly necro and ranger that can keep its uptime high without sacrificing much else, and with necro its usually the core necros that take 5 years to kill anyway. I think weakness hurts the most against ranger, because its already doing more damage than you are and weakness on top is extra painful. There is also staff thief that can perma weakness you, but any good thief is a problem for war in my experience.

Fear spam is usually coming also from core necro. Taunts are relevant only for renegade, and on it they hurt the most on their cele build, which is already very tanky (and as all celestial condi builds, the build only works because condi can deal high damage despite having a lot of defensive stats, unlike power).

Overall I don't really think its individual conditions that shut you down tbh, its that every class but war (and power thief) has viable access to multiple  non-damaging condis regardless of their build (condi or power) and can output those condis at a sufficient rate to disrupt your gameplay. You can of course play condi war yourself, but your power build has nothing that can put condis on your opponent. Your GS4 is your "best condi" and your dagger 2 is your other condi (you got only 2). And your cleanses have other uses as written above, so you have to be extra smart with them (i.e. you have to play defensively against condi vomit, and condi vomit is usually coming from tanky build and so on).

I've tried playing featherfoot grace, its just not good enough with 45 sec CD. And you need endure pain vs every power build...

Like you said, it's not about any one condition but the rate and ease as to which they can be applied. It just feels specially bad on warrior as you don't have the tools to deal with them when you need to and unlike a lot of professions you NEED to deal with them.

[Yasai.3549]

23 hours ago, Zexanima.7851 said:

 Mobility is on the lower end

So untrue. 
Warriors are infamous for being able to escape from 50 people chasing them in WvW. 

They have ALOT of mobility, and have easily 2 evades, one from Bull one from GS 3. 
 

 

23 hours ago, Zexanima.7851 said:

Reliant on single hit, high impact abilities

Also untrue. 
It's correct that Warriors lean heavily on their Burst to start and end fights, and it is their bread and butter, but it's not accurate to say they are entirely reliant on it. 

MH Axe has one of the most painful attack chains in the entire game, and this is even after the nerf to Power. 

The real reason Warrior has fallen right off is due to really debilitating nerfs that are core to a Warrior. 

 

Warrior has taken a serious hit when Heal nerf happened, causing them to no longer be able to sustain purely through Defense Burst HoT and Signet of Healing. The second serious hit happened when Resistance was reworked and Resolution was added, and Warrior straight up had close to no Resolution application. 

This left Warrior in a state where they are unable to tank through conditions, and unable to sustain heal. Sure they still have chunk heals, but those are entirely useless if you don't build defensive stats and healing power, something a skirmishing Warrior does not build. And even worse, even if you DO split your stats into defensive ones, you can't kill anyone due to the Power nerf. 

This triple layering blanket nerfs hit all the core points of what made Warrior work and like a bridge with the cornerstone removed, everything just collapses. The only Warrior builds that can function well these days are Shoutbreakers or Gunflame, both of which are on extreme ends of the spectrum when it comes to builds. Everything else in between is at the mercy of matchups. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Bruh🤦‍♂️

 

You know what doesn't help? Anet buffing the horrendous cele stat. Like what the hell. Expertise on bunker builds for free????? Concentration on bunker builds that heavily access defensive boons??? (prot on ranger, stab on guards, regen on mirages, vigor on engis etc). Kek🧏‍♂️

 

I broke my hands yesterday to win 4 duels against 4 different ranger setups, for which I could only use Core Tactics Warrior and take a guess why I used that. ☠️

 

Perma weakness, chill blasts punishing me for not having shield block up, dmg as good as mine, sustain far superior to my 0 healing power Tactics build yadda yadda. 

 

Fear? Fear locking do be a thing. The hell with that stuff. Not fun. 👺

 

You want resistance???? SIIIIKEEEE it's been nerfed to oblivion on warrior!!!! No sane mfer will roam on warrior. It's God Renegade, some form of Cele low effort auto attack spam (Staff/Axe Mirage, Flamethrower Engi, some Death Magic Necro tanking my full zerker 20 might axe 3 crit for 400 dmg, some bunker ranger etc).😴

 

The other classes have too much inhibiting condition application, conditions are a joke (aka instant 20 confusion burst from mes while im mid animation arcing slice, ending up cutting my wrists I guess from the dmg I eat), Celestial garbo players must be culled, ANet you suck at balancing, Warrior is at it's worse rn and with Alliances for WvW it rly shows.🤮

 

Cut the kitten, balance now. Stop this. We can't seriously have kitten like 300 sec CDs still, untouched lines like Arms and no updates on skills and traits since the resistance change. Unless if you plan on popping some passive Resistance on warr ig. 🤓

 

Clowns.🤡

Edited January 16, 2022 by Grand Marshal.4098

[felix.2386]

yes, it's impossible to play warrior without warrior's sprint and brawler's recovery as some one who played warrior previous to these additions in high end pvp content.

immob/cripple/blind would literally f up warrior so hard it's not even funny. u literally have to use cleansing ire and longbow cause you cant touch anyone with those conditions.

now they just heavy buff warrior condition cleanse through the roof without wanting to fix warrior's core problem, which is the same problem warrior face now. but instead they just give a f tons of condition cleanse to warrior...too funny, even so warrior still dies to condition is the funny part.

like if you give the same amount of condi cleanse warrior has to another other class, they would be god-like against conditions specs.

Edited January 16, 2022 by felix.2386

[felix.2386]

6 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

So untrue. 
Warriors are infamous for being able to escape from 50 people chasing them in WvW. 
 

lol you are clueless, warriors infamouse for that in like 2014 running some meme build that kills no one, and only some people who couldn't press button(which is like 90% of the pvp/ 99% of the wvw population) will get impressed by those videos of runner nike meme build outrunning 50 men, wow so great..so nice..what you accomplish here, nothing. while thief ranger and engi can just stealth and completely avoid the entire zerg. not like the zerg is not following a commander who isnt paying attention to that one guy.

 

when you look at actual combats, even necro can escape warrior easily as people learn how to press buttons in wvw. not to mention new elite specs like soulbeast, mirage.

flat surface marathon running really doesnt matter, what matter is in combat mobility and how the mobility is execute, which is y necro can so easily create 1200 range gap between him and warrior. even tho on paper, pure running warrior may cover more range.

 

let alone a single cc on rush and your mobility is gone. unless u run meme stab runner nike build. yea so great omg my mobility so great, lol

Edited January 16, 2022 by felix.2386

[Zexanima.7851]

6 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

So untrue. 
Warriors are infamous for being able to escape from 50 people chasing them in WvW. 

They have ALOT of mobility, and have easily 2 evades, one from Bull one from GS 3. 

I'm going to disagree. They have small bursts of movement, but they are not mobile. A necro can outrun a WvW zerg with good use of Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm, and properly using terrain. Necro is the least mobile class in the game. Usually the reason a warrior in WvW survives a scenario like that isn't due to their mobility, it's due to their survivability and player skill. Other roamer builds will hunt you down on warrior. You do not have on demand swiftness/superspeed access, their passive movement speed buff is one of the slower ones (25%), you do not have teleports. Both Bull's Rush and WW are evades, but they are not good movement abilities because they have such short range. They will help you gap close or survive in a fight but will not help you catch someone/run away when committed to doing so. 

Quote

Also untrue. 
It's correct that Warriors lean heavily on their Burst to start and end fights, and it is their bread and butter, but it's not accurate to say they are entirely reliant on it. 

I said high impact, single hit abilities, not high damage. Depending on what you run his includes things like Bull's Charge, Shield Bash, Rush, most burst skills, pretty much any hammer/bow ability (though no one uses these really), and so on.

 

Quote

MH Axe has one of the most painful attack chains in the entire game, and this is even after the nerf to Power. 

You're not wrong, but you wont get this off more than maybe 1 hit of that chain unless you've locked them down. Locking someone down requires you to hit single hit abilities. 
 

Quote

The real reason Warrior has fallen right off is due to really debilitating nerfs that are core to a Warrior. 

You're right but I wasn't specifically talking about what the main issues are with warrior. I even mentioned at the end of the post that I wasn't. I was just talking about one annoying aspect. 

Quote

Warrior has taken a serious hit when Heal nerf happened, causing them to no longer be able to sustain purely through Defense Burst HoT and Signet of Healing. The second serious hit happened when Resistance was reworked and Resolution was added, and Warrior straight up had close to no Resolution application. 

This left Warrior in a state where they are unable to tank through conditions, and unable to sustain heal. Sure they still have chunk heals, but those are entirely useless if you don't build defensive stats and healing power, something a skirmishing Warrior does not build. And even worse, even if you DO split your stats into defensive ones, you can't kill anyone due to the Power nerf. 

This triple layering blanket nerfs hit all the core points of what made Warrior work and like a bridge with the cornerstone removed, everything just collapses. The only Warrior builds that can function well these days are Shoutbreakers or Gunflame, both of which are on extreme ends of the spectrum when it comes to builds. Everything else in between is at the mercy of matchups. 

All correct points, but I wasn't really talking to the core issues of what troubles warrior. 

[oscuro.9720]

Real warriors run in slow motion and don’t look at explosions. Clearly a L2P issue.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Real warriors run in slow motion and don’t look at explosions. Clearly a L2P issue.

I use rp walk when i see a zerg and proceed to get played as an unkillable ping pong.

[SeTect.5918]

On 1/15/2022 at 12:46 PM, Hotride.2187 said:

My experience with getting blind spammed, it usually is coming from a thief or a grenade engi.

The thieves who blind spam you are usually not very good; the problem vs thief comes from not being able to dodge their stealth attack (as you dont know when its coming). If they are smoke bombing you they arent really doing the damage they should be doing to get you down.

And the engis who can blind spam you with grenades are a problem for other reasons, mainly the almost perma superspeed, the other condis on their grenades and the decent stability uptime they have. Not to mention the almost perma regen.

Which is not to say that a well timed blind wont ruin your damage, but burning a cleanse for it seems a bit much (considering how your cleanses are either also your heal or your stunbreak, and you have to be sparing with their use...).

For weakness its mostly necro and ranger that can keep its uptime high without sacrificing much else, and with necro its usually the core necros that take 5 years to kill anyway. I think weakness hurts the most against ranger, because its already doing more damage than you are and weakness on top is extra painful. There is also staff thief that can perma weakness you, but any good thief is a problem for war in my experience.

Fear spam is usually coming also from core necro. Taunts are relevant only for renegade, and on it they hurt the most on their cele build, which is already very tanky (and as all celestial condi builds, the build only works because condi can deal high damage despite having a lot of defensive stats, unlike power).

Overall I don't really think its individual conditions that shut you down tbh, its that every class but war (and power thief) has viable access to multiple  non-damaging condis regardless of their build (condi or power) and can output those condis at a sufficient rate to disrupt your gameplay. You can of course play condi war yourself, but your power build has nothing that can put condis on your opponent. Your GS4 is your "best condi" and your dagger 2 is your other condi (you got only 2). And your cleanses have other uses as written above, so you have to be extra smart with them (i.e. you have to play defensively against condi vomit, and condi vomit is usually coming from tanky build and so on).

I've tried playing featherfoot grace, its just not good enough with 45 sec CD. And you need endure pain vs every power build...

I dont want to argue with anything else you said but grenade engis cant blind Spam. 

Yes grenades r strong, maybe a bit too strong (grenade auto attack especially) but the only blindness on grenades comes from grenade kit 3 which has a 10 sec cooldown. 

Maybe you meant mortar kit combined which grenade kit. Mortar kit has a 5 sec long pulsing blindness aoe which is very strong. 

I also heard something with stability so you maybe also mean flamethrower which also has blindness on skill 5.

All these together can lead to blindness spam but grenades only cant. Not at all tbh.

So if you mean this, i agree. I just wanted to make clear that grenades only cant blindness spam at all. 

[Zexanima.7851]

1 hour ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I dont want to argue with anything else you said but grenade engis cant blind Spam. 

Yes grenades r strong, maybe a bit too strong (grenade auto attack especially) but the only blindness on grenades comes from grenade kit 3 which has a 10 sec cooldown. 

Maybe you meant mortar kit combined which grenade kit. Mortar kit has a 5 sec long pulsing blindness aoe which is very strong. 

I also heard something with stability so you maybe also mean flamethrower which also has blindness on skill 5.

All these together can lead to blindness spam but grenades only cant. Not at all tbh.

So if you mean this, i agree. I just wanted to make clear that grenades only cant blindness spam at all. 

The grandmaster skill, Flashbang, in Explosives gives you a lot of blind application. Nothing on part with with thief, but it's still a pretty good amount of blind

[SeTect.5918]

5 hours ago, Zexanima.7851 said:

The grandmaster skill, Flashbang, in Explosives gives you a lot of blind application. Nothing on part with with thief, but it's still a pretty good amount of blind

Tho its also not blindness spam, you need this and some other sources for being able to spam. 

[Zexanima.7851]

7 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Tho its also not blindness spam, you need this and some other sources for being able to spam. 

What's considered "spam" is pretty subjective.

[SeTect.5918]

28 minutes ago, Zexanima.7851 said:

What's considered "spam" is pretty subjective.

Thats right and I respect it, but its not right that engis cant spam blindness with grenades only. Because i dont know who would consider it "blindness spam" if its 1 blindness every 10 sec.
I just wanted to make clear thats its a combination of many skills and traits. I get the superspeed grenade scrapper hate, its really annoying as hell but grenades are not THAT op that they can even be a source of so much blindness that its considered spam.
(going from my point that every 10 sec isnt spam)

However if every 10 sec is spam for the one that said that engis can blindness spam with grenades, then i am sorry and I respect your opinion.
If every 10 sec is not spam for you, then its my point as above, a combination of some engi skills + traits can end up in blindness spam for sure.

[oscuro.9720]

4 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Thats right and I respect it, but its not right that engis cant spam blindness with grenades only. Because i dont know who would consider it "blindness spam" if its 1 blindness every 10 sec.
I just wanted to make clear thats its a combination of many skills and traits. I get the superspeed grenade scrapper hate, its really annoying as hell but grenades are not THAT op that they can even be a source of so much blindness that its considered spam.
(going from my point that every 10 sec isnt spam)

However if every 10 sec is spam for the one that said that engis can blindness spam with grenades, then i am sorry and I respect your opinion.
If every 10 sec is not spam for you, then its my point as above, a combination of some engi skills + traits can end up in blindness spam for sure.

I don’t really know what I would count as spam (and I wouldn’t count 1s every 10s as spam), but each class will have different opinions on what constitutes spam. For example, a smaller amount of blind output will be more poignantly felt by warriors given our dependence on single hit skills. So 1s every 10s almost matches the cool down of a skill like arcing slice, making it feel very oppressive if every time arcing is off CD, the player is blinded. 
Though I don’t think 1s every 10s is spam. In fact, I don’t have as much of a problem with blind spam as other people though.