How can we decide if or when something needs to be buffed or nerfed?

[Sahne.6950]

They should treat balancing similar to how League of Legends does. They observe data on playtime and Winrates of certain Champions (->professions in gw2). Regardless of Possible damageoutput, possible tankyness,whatever, they buff the least played professions and the ones with the least winrate. To give people incentive to try them out. Even small buffs like +20basevitality will bring in people playing that build again, because they want to find out if it is viable now. If they would go thru that cycle every 3 weeks, everytime buffing the least played / lowest winrate builds, they will increase diversity as a whole. Those rising builds will affect the current meta builds and keep them in check. It is the opposite of nerfing the overperforming builds but in the longrun it will be better i think. Because we are not deleting certain builds, we are helping builds to rise and eventually rival these. So as a whole we are bringing new builds into the light, without deleting the ones that already exist. There is no powercreep also. Because you are not buffing the builds that are atm setting the bar for this powercreep. You would be buffing things that are weak atm and give more incentive to NOT USE the current metabuilds.

[Sahne.6950]

37 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

No.

I can’t remember who said this…but it’s like we are fixing a leaky roof by putting more and more buckets on the ground…we are simply approaching the entire thing from the wrong direction.
 

There is a way to solve the issues of the game…but those solutions require an understanding of some theories (complexity theory) and with that understanding changes the way we model and approach problems and creating solutions to those problems. There is no exact procedure to follow either…but the procedure one chooses needs to follow those theories in order to work because without that understanding you get behaviors that you don’t want. 
 

it’s hard to really explain without a few pages of text as to why such a fundamental thing doesn’t have an exact procedure but it’s this property that’s actually integral to why it works the way that it does.

You are saying that yourself.. or am i understanding you wrong? you are trying to make your words sound so smart that it is hard to follow you at times...

You are saying that we need nerfs/buffs but we have no clue how to do it....  as a conclusion you are indirectly suggesting that we dont do it, because everything we do is just a bandaid and not helping in the longrun. did i get that right?. i didnt watch that youtube video... maybe thats why i dont understand. but from just reading you posts that is what i understand.

You are talking about how complex it is but your words dont lead anywhere buddy. a lot of words with very little constructivity in it. You sound so smart but what your saying is exactly what everyone is saying since a long time. Use you 0megabrain to come up with ideas insted of overcomplicated phrases.

and the only thing that really is truly balanced (and diverse) is nature. Does nature do nerfs and buffs? Does nature have updates every 3 months? What is it that makes nature so special...why can't we program into this game

 such esoterics, much wow  

-Doge;2022

 

it’s like we are fixing a leaky roof by putting more and more buckets on the ground…we are simply approaching the entire thing from the wrong direction.

Lets turn gw2 into a FPS-Shooter! yes thats it!   (totally trolling here)

Maybe you suggest something buddy... you are talking so much and saying so little....

maybe i am totally missing your point... And i sincerely appologize if that is the case...

You are trying to sound so smart when in reality all your doing is making your text less accessible. Alot of things you are saying can be said with less and more common words. But you choose to sound like a renown college Prof. in a forum about a videogame. Alot of people myself included are not even speaking english as their nativelanguage...

 ....doesn’t have an exact procedure but it’s this property that’s actually integral to why...

COME ON! xDD  

I understand what you are saying but i am pretty sure some people dont. And is that really your goal?

Edited February 4, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Tescao.3042]

56 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Balance and diversity has existed prior to MMO's...Given what I said about requiring a shift in perspective, who's to say that we haven't been doing it wrong this whole time? We've yet to actually see an MMO that is "balanced" and "diverse"...and the only thing that really is truly balanced (and diverse) is nature. Games like gw2 are struggling so that points to the fact that we are doing something wrong...not nature.

You have realized the moment of the present, the moment of truth. Your words also contain the meaning of how we are manipulated on a global scale and people want to be manipulated and do not realize their original nature (even the smartest, richest, etc.).

In the old days, the "way of the warrior" was passed down from generation to generation. Following this path, the internal struggle (the most important) was initially carried out, and then the interpretation of the external. After that, only by the age of 40 or after did the warrior mature for the family. Those who took control of the story "ruled out" such minor details. Therefore, we see the shadow of those who manipulate even in games. As you yourself said in other posts, it is a reflection (deep observation)

Thank you for the good interpretation of my words.

P. S. Socrates is a warrior, Pythagoras is a warrior, etc. This list could go on and on. (True, now the way of the warrior has been made into a kind of show).

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

55 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You are saying that yourself.. or am i understanding you wrong? you are trying to make your words sound so smart that it is hard to follow at times...

You are saying that we need nerfs/buffs but we have no clue how to do it....  so you are suggesting we dont do it in a way.

You are talking about how complex it is but your words dont lead anywhere buddy. a lot of words with very little constructivity in it.

I get what you are saying but it is not helping.

 

That's not what I'm saying. 

You should watch this video.

 

 

What I have done for about 2-ish years now, is just frame Guild Wars 2 as a Complex System as follows from complexity theory. By doing so, we can explain the behaviors that we see in the game using that framework. The things I talk about in all of my posts are the results of modeling the game in this way.

 

Past this introductory video, there is a much deeper hole into how this mechanism works...but essentially things are governed by rules, and those rules lead to behaviors. The solution for how to fix this game lies in what kind of rules we are using to the system (the game) and whether those rules lead to simple or complicated behavior. Complicated behavior, barring a long explanation, is what gives us diversity and balance.

 

So when I say rules and behaviors I'm talking about the interactions of mechanics in the game like traits and skills and so on...A trait does some thing that follows some set of rules...how that trait interacts with other traits is the behavior of that trait...and on a macroscopic level, defines the behavior of the system as a whole. For example, when I use this trait "Soothing Mist" It is following some mathematical rule (+X% healing) and then you can ask how that rule interacts with other things in the game. That healing effects skills ABC, skills ABC interact with skill XY and Z, and in aggregate I have a build that is then able to heal in a zerg fight. This behavior is what emerges as the consequence of the rule that this trait is operating on. Formally, this interaction is modeled as a Network Graph

 

So when I talk about making meaningful changes to the game, we are talking about how these rules (mechanics of the game) create macroscopic behaviors. The question is whether these rules lead to complex behaviors or simple ones. If they lead to simple behaviors, the game can be easily understood (computed) and the game will collapse to a metagame in a fast period of time. If the rules lead to complex behaviors then the game is not easily computed and the game remains in a state in which players continually explore the space of builds, and this is what diversity is, the state of the game being heterogenous (diverse) rather than being homogenous (a stale meta)

 

In essence, the mechanical interactions of traits and skills and amulets and so on, need to be changed in such a way, to yield complex behaviors. How this is done is based on the rules in which these mechanics operate on, and there is no definitive "rule" that leads to complex behavior. It is a somewhat arbitrary procedure, where there are an infinite number of rules we could pick from to decide how those things behave. Because of complexity, the level of complexity of interactions in aggregate can be arbitrary as well.

 

Changing game mechanics to yield complex behavior is technically a buff, because what such a procedure is doing, is making things interact more richly with other things, which leads to deeper variety of builds that can be created...so technically these changes are buffs, but not in the traditional sense that we think of as buffs. What these procedures do is make traits and skills that don't interact with anything (useless garbage skills) into traits and skills that interact with many things in deeper ways (useful skills), and this is what allows many builds to be created and used...since there is a greater depth to which one can create builds. The greater number of builds that exist in the space of builds, the more likely you will have a counter that exists to compete and suppress that build...and thus this process suppresses outliers from becoming dominant, thus leading to a game in which the meta is constantly usurped by new builds.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Axl.8924]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

No.

I can’t remember who said this…but it’s like we are fixing a leaky roof by putting more and more buckets on the ground…we are simply approaching the entire thing from the wrong direction.
 

There is a way to solve the issues of the game…but those solutions require an understanding of some theories (complexity theory) and with that understanding changes the way we model and approach problems and creating solutions to those problems. There is no exact procedure to follow either…but the procedure one chooses needs to follow those theories in order to work because without that understanding you get behaviors that you don’t want. 
 

it’s hard to really explain without a few pages of text as to why such a fundamental thing doesn’t have an exact procedure but it’s this property that’s actually integral to why it works the way that it does.

 

This is precisely what i was arguing about here that we get people who play versus a class or play a class possibly gain false information because someone who's not very good says x class is underpowered/super op and when you get information from someone who's not skilled or bias you get the wrong information about a class and its workings. This is why i dislike nerf conversations because there are many times. I've seen it too often something has a tell liek for instance the ranger LB2 has a obvious fast shot that can be avoided by hiding behind a wall for instance. I'd like for classes that are built to be duelist to be balanced in such a way they perform well at duelist but not at other ways when they are elte spec built for that job. A duelist shouldn't perform 2 jobs at a time a roamer maybe good at roaming but bad in teamplay etc. This is also why i prefer to ask questions in the forums of said classes, because people who play class and play well understand said classes better than people who don't.

[Sahne.6950]

18 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

That's not what I'm saying. 

You should watch this video.

 

 

What I have done for about 2-ish years now, is just frame Guild Wars 2 as a Complex System as follows from complexity theory. By doing so, we can explain the behaviors that we see in the game using that framework. The things I talk about in all of my posts are the results of modeling the game in this way.

 

Past this introductory video, there is a much deeper hole into how this mechanism works...but essentially things are governed by rules, and those rules lead to behaviors. The solution for how to fix this game lies in what kind of rules we are using to the system (the game) and whether those rules lead to simple or complicated behavior. Complicated behavior, barring a long explanation, is what gives us diversity and balance.

 

So when I say rules and behaviors I'm talking about the interactions of mechanics in the game like traits and skills and so on...A trait does some thing that follows some set of rules...how that trait interacts with other traits is the behavior of that trait...and on a macroscopic level, defines the behavior of the system as a whole. For example, when I use this trait "Soothing Mist" It is following some mathematical rule (+X% healing) and then you can ask how that rule interacts with other things in the game. That healing effects skills ABC, skills ABC interact with skill XY and Z, and in aggregate I have a build that is then able to heal in a zerg fight. This behavior is what emerges as the consequence of the rule that this trait is operating on. Formally, this interaction is modeled as a Network Graph

 

So when I talk about making meaningful changes to the game, we are talking about how these rules (mechanics of the game) create macroscopic behaviors. The question is whether these rules lead to complex behaviors or simple ones. If they lead to simple behaviors, the game can be easily understood (computed) and the game will collapse to a metagame in a fast period of time. If the rules lead to complex behaviors then the game is not easily computed and the game remains in a state in which players continually explore the space of builds, and this is what diversity is, the state of the game being heterogenous (diverse) rather than being homogenous (a stale meta)

 

In essence, the mechanical interactions of traits and skills and amulets and so on, need to be changed in such a way, to yield complex behaviors. How this is done is based on the rules in which these mechanics operate on, and there is no definitive "rule" that leads to complex behavior. It is a somewhat arbitrary procedure, where there are an infinite number of rules we could pick from to decide how those things behave. Because of complexity, the level of complexity of interactions in aggregate can be arbitrary as well.

 

Changing game mechanics to yield complex behavior is technically a buff, because what such a procedure is doing, is making things interact more richly with other things, which leads to deeper variety of builds that can be created...so technically these changes are buffs, but not in the traditional sense that we think of as buffs. What these procedures do is make traits and skills that don't interact with anything (useless garbage skills) into traits and skills that interact with many things in deeper ways (useful skills), and this is what allows many builds to be created and used...since there is a greater depth to which one can create builds. The greater number of builds that exist in the space of builds, the more likely you will have a counter that exists to compete and suppress that build...and thus this process suppresses outliers from becoming dominant, thus leading to a game in which the meta is constantly usurped by new builds.

 

 

you tried to make it more understandable and even explained some words this time! THANKS ❤️

i got your point now.

 

We need to redesign certain aspects, for example traits. These traits have to interact with other things of the build in a meaningful way to make a wider variety of builds possible. those new builds might counter the already dominant builds and that will lead to more variety / balance. So in a way we are limited by the current traits/amulets/etc. because some of them are useless and therefore you are forced into using these "metabuilds" when you want to compete.

Did i get that right?

Edited February 4, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

Altho i still think that you are trying to turn Gw2 PvP into rocketscience... In reality it totally is rocketscience! I also understand why you are dealing with this on the level of complexity that you currently are, because on paper you are right and it makes sense. But that is actually leading nowhere. What we need is some simple changes to shakeup the meta once in a while. Noone is expecting a MMO to be pitchperfect;Every profession being equally good; everything being perfect. What this Community is wanting is regular patches! Some changes and new things to try out every once in a while. Does anyone think it would harm the game if we would tune up some damage of...Lets say... Freshair ele..... i dont think anyone would be upset if we would give plasmabeam 10% more damage. All of the sudden freshair would be absolutely viable again because you can actually burst down people like you used to before the damage nerfs. Would Freshair be broken? HELL NO! would we see more of them all of a sudden? YES! Small things like that need to happen every month or so. But they are afraid to just test things like buffing certain skills, because they dont patch on a regular and people would have to deal with a possible bad decision for YEARS.  Just look at other games... CoD for example. at one point they buffed the Famas to have no damagedropoff (weapons hurt less on longer distances) This gun suddenly didnt have it anymore...  (gun was crap before) What did that lead to? the gun is still not very good but there is a small percentage of people that outright loves it! there was a totally wild week where everyone was experimenting with it. And overall it did for sure not break the game. Things like this changeup the pace of a game ever so slightly once in a while and keeps it interesting. Same could be done for builds that are 100% underperforming atm *cough* almost everything warrior related*cough*.

Stuff like that can be easily reverted aswel... but it requires regular patches. The only thing wrong in Gw2 balance is, that it takes over a year for something to change and people get bored of the meta really fast... Are the current builds broken? NO THEY ARE NOT! is it unfun to play the same things over and over again? YES! I think that is where the problem is and not some weird complexitiy, Nature is bae, Theory.... im sorry. XD

Sometimes things dont need to be perfect! they need to be fun! think about that ^_^

Edited February 4, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

13 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

We need to redesign certain aspects, for example traits. These traits have to interact with other things of the build in a meaningful way to make a wider variety of builds possible. those new builds might counter the already dominant builds and that will lead to more variety / balance. So in a way we are limited by the current traits/amulets/etc. because some of them are useless and therefore you are forced into using these "metabuilds" when you want to compete.

Did i get that right?

 

Yes, that is precisely right. 

 

This is also why the removals of amulets, removal of traits (with the 300s ICD's) removal of damage and the constant nerfs to the game didn't solve things, they made things worse by limiting options, which limits builds people can create (that function) to combat the current meta.

 

6 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You are wasting so much of your lifetime buddy 😄

 

I mean, this stuff is very useful for things outside of Guild Wars 2 (obviously). I've modeled a variety of things based on Complexity Theory, including a business model, and the stock market...and those things have worked exceedingly well for me so far, and I don't regret it one bit.

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I mean, this stuff is very useful for things outside of Guild Wars 2 (obviously). I've modeled a variety of things based on Complexity Theory, including a business model, and the stock market...and those things have worked exceedingly well for me so far, and I don't regret it one bit.

for the real world this is totally awesome and a great way to perceive things. But for some random moving pixels designed for children and nerdy grownups... its not the right thing to apply! it just overcomplicates a thing and overshadows the real problem : them pushing out balance patches every other year or so... when in reality they should every 3 weeks to keep it interesting.

Like i said. A game doesnt have to be perfect.... it has to be fun.

Simple solution: adjust those profession with the lowest winrate every 4 weeks. Give people a reason to play anything besides the 5-7 topbuilds. Dont nerf the top ones! bring more builds into the picture. They will overshoot at one point making 1 thing totally op.. but that will only be for a short time then. Atm we are left with a big mess after every patch, because they are trying to balance TO MUCH. because they know they wont change anything the next 365 days or so... Just look at those 300CD traits... WHAT THE ACTUAL KITTEN XDD They overshot those things SO MUCH. and we are left with those for YEARS now....  if they would bring up the CD of those by 20 seconds every 4 weeks and just stop when they are at a spot that they think fits.... THAT WOULD ACTUALLY WORK... but no... we balance twice a decade so we have to swing the nerfhammer BIGTIMEEEE!

Small changes to the lowest perfoming builds / professions once a month will go a long way and keep it interesting.

conclusion: The balance is not the problem. The problem is that they dont care enough for pvp related gamemodes to push out changes on a regular. And therefore we are left with a meta that is not changing and you will naturally have 1 or 2 things that are better then the other for that one patchperiod. The sad thing is that patchperiods are often multiple years.... some people start and quit gw2 , meanwhile NOT A SINGLE BALANCEPATCH HAPPENED. Meanwhile some people feel that their profession is totally left out because ANet overshoot the nerf last patch and they have to wait 2 years for the next one... or Anet didnt even notice how some changes nerf/buff certain builds (Warrior-> Resolution change; Flamethrowerengi -> Retaliation change) and now you are stuck in this patch for the next 2 years.... so people get frustrated.   Patch every 4 weeks = Gw2 balancing "fixed"  (there will never be perfection but there will be fun and new things)

All personal opinion but i think that is just about the root of all the evil. The acutal balancing is pretty good for an MMO...

!!!short derail!!!

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

We need to redesign certain aspects, for example traits. These traits have to interact with other things of the build in a meaningful way to make a wider variety of builds possible. those new builds might counter the already dominant builds and that will lead to more variety / balance. So in a way we are limited by the current traits/amulets/etc. because some of them are useless and therefore you are forced into using these "metabuilds" when you want to compete.

Did i get that right?

Yes, that is precisely right. 

 Look how little words i have used and still brought across the message... while you are writing 95 page essays....

Most people here are to lazy to read textwalls especially if you flood your Textwall with unnesacarry overcomplicated phrases.   Plain - simple - text.   I am 100% sure most people have not read your texts to the end. I  know you just wanted to precisely explain but sometimes that does more harm than good. I am not trying to be rough on you... i just wanted to hold a mirror and show what you are doing. You are smart everyon can see that. But you should always consider: to what audience am i speaking? do they want to dive into that topic as deep as i have? or do they just want the answers that i found out? If someone wants more explanation: GOGOG Deploy all the Braincells that you have. but in general less is more here^^

Edited February 4, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[voltaicbore.8012]

10 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Another user by the name of Hogwarts Zebra said it very well in a recent post, that when you nerf one thing, the next busted thing becomes meta…and you nerf that the next busted thing becomes meta…and this happens over and over until everything is nerfed to the point where everything must be the same exact thing.

And then, we arrive at Dragon Ball, the pinnacle of pvp balance in this game!

[Tescao.3042]

8 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

But for some random moving pixels designed for children and nerdy grownups... its not the right thing to apply!

QR codes are just the beginning. Sorry I couldn't resist.  👌 👍

[Ashgar.3024]

7 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

This is a common misconception actually. Because at the high level, which should be what you mainly balance for. Skill floor is irrelevant. 

 

Why should the game be designed for like 50 people actually?

 

If a couple builds make the game miserable for 99% of the playerbase, fixing those seem to be a higher return on investment on devs time than making sure that whatever's going on in the top 50 is perfectly balanced (it will never be because at that level breaking and bending the game is the whole point).

Edited February 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Why should the game be designed for like 50 people actually?

most games balance around the top people playing it. Because they tend to play the classes to their fullest and therefor you can really see which classes are strong and which are not.

If you would balance for plebs a at least semiskilled Freshair could onebang everything. you understand what i mean? If they would balance around how bronze players are perfoming on a particular build, they will overtune it for anyone that is atleast decent with it.

[Ashgar.3024]

8 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

most games balance around the top people playing it. Because they tend to play the classes to their fullest and therefor you can really see which classes are strong and which are not.

League/WoW/Overwatch never felt like they did. Never really played other games besides these with RPG-style balancing.

 

8 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

If you would balance for plebs a at least semiskilled Freshair could onebang everything. you understand what i mean? If they would balance around how bronze players are perfoming on a particular build, they will overtune it for anyone that is atleast decent with it.

 

Meanwhile there's 0 difference betwen a bronze and plat Core necro besides his ability to jump on boxes and kite, which is just general gameplay skill anyway. Same with most Guardian variations currently in the meta.

 

Probably a hot take but a build actually should feel overtuned if its played masterfully. That's the whole point of getting better at something.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Sahne.6950]

4 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

League/WoW/Overwatch never felt like they did. Never really played other games besides these with RPG-style balancing.

WHATTTT... they are the definition of: we balance for the pro scene... xD what are you talking about :DDD Thats why you have champs completely stomping lower elos, but in higher play they are balanced. now every bronze pleb is shouting: NERF EVELYNN kitten, when in reality its a l2p issue, with those newbies not knowing to ward eves junglecamps...  but we are getting offtopic and you are trolling anyways.

Probably a hot take but a build probably should feel overtuned if its played masterfully. That's the whole point of getting better at something.

 and that is just about what we have in gw2....  bro what are you talking about here xD

they balance everything around people that are good with these specific builds, not some monkeys spamming everything off cooldown... dont you see that?

Meanwhile there's 0 difference betwen a bronze and plat Core necro

 Stop it xD i cant breath....  :DDD

Edited February 4, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Ashgar.3024]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

WHATTTT... they are the definition of: we balance for the proscene... xD what are you talking about :DDD

Yeah what Blizzard says and what Blizzard does always match, amirite.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Ashgar.3024]

4 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Stop it xD i cant breath....  :DDD

Spotted the Core Necro main i guess.

[Sahne.6950]

1 minute ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Spotted the Core Necro main i guess.

never played necro, never will.... bro you just have 0 clue what your talking about.

[Ashgar.3024]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

never played necro, never will.... bro you just have 0 clue what your talking about.

So why is every game filled with at least 2 necros and 1-2 guards every single time, regardless if i'm on my plat main account or alts at random ratings?

 

If the game worked the way you seemingly think it does the meta would shift the higher you go.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Sahne.6950]

9 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

So why is every game filled with at least 2 necros and 1-2 guards every single time, regardless if i'm on my plat main account or alts at random ratings?

 

If the game worked the way you seemingly think it does the meta would shift the higher you go.

And that is exactly what is Happening. You have certain noobstomper builds that are literally use less in higher ranked games.

[Ashgar.3024]

9 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

And that is exactly what is Happening. You have certain noobstomper builds that are literally use less in higher ranked games.

Yeah Reapers in Silver switch to Core and most DHs also switch to Core. Huge improvement from the fact 2 classes make up for 60%+ of the meta consistently /sarcasm since it translates through text poorly apparently.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[The Boz.2038]

..wow, dude, did you just accept defeat by proving your own argument wrong?

[Sahne.6950]

Pretty sure he is trolling tbh.

[Ashgar.3024]

4 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Pretty sure he is trolling tbh.

Nab just bored of fighting Necro/Guards all day. Queue on something else you cowards and prove me wrong in thniking they're the path of least resistance.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Sahne.6950]

 then say that.. and dont throw in random arguments that are straight up not true or completly offtopic from your original intend. 😄 

Queue on something else you cowards and prove me wrong in thniking they're the path of least resistance.

i dont even know what is happening anymore 😄 this guys brain made my day....

YOU ARE SOOO FAR OFFTOPIC, that it is getting hilarious... PLEASE PLEASE stop it :DD

Edited February 4, 2022 by Sahne.6950