GW1 PvP remastered - the only way forward?

[Titan.3472]

I previously thought conditions spam was not game breaking, someone lied to me !

[ZhouX.8742]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:good post, but I feel there's an alternative solution. it's a lot cheaper and less complex, and honestly it's what I would do if I was in charge. I'll lay it out step by step.

1. let the PvP team make balance changes with splits, and roll out patches at different times to the PvE patches.

2. appoint a community representative/leader from the PvP team. I'm thinking this would be Ben, as he talks the community the most. alternatively you could hire Jebro to do the communication aspect.

3. gather up, say four ex-pro players. personally I would choose Chaith, Phantaram, Sind, and Helseth. invite these players to participate in a monthly balance podcast (streamed thru twitch, a la teatime).

4. give the ex-pros a week or so to prepare a hypothetical balance change list. let them talk to their audience and other community members about this. then have the ex-pros and the PvP teams representative discuss the changes live over twitch. with the goal being to end up with a rough balance patch at the end of the stream.

5. clean up the balance patch, and roll it out within a week of the stream.

6. repeat every 1-2 months as needed.

I honestly think this would sort balance out within a few months, and do huge things to improve community attitude. adding new gamemodes, like 2v2 or GvG could come later. but I feel the way to go is to utilise the talent and tools we have to fix the gammode we have before moving on to new content.

just my 2c

I like this idea

If you put it in the hands of helseth , mesmer would be more godlike than it already is. Kid always complains about mesmer but one of the biggest classes next to thief in conquest. No offense, the only non-biased people on that list is Chaith and Phantaram. You need non-biased top players representing balance changes not people who would only look to make their own team stronger and/or class stronger.

Of course, your idea isn't anything new... Grouch used to do this exact thing secretly and house private spreadsheets with top players in the NA/EU scene on balance changes and things tested internally with them , until it got leaked one day by Backpack on stream and people got mad and upset that top players were basically just trying to make their existing comps stronger and not actually balance the game, this is why something like this would never work unless you brought in strictly non-biased players.

[witcher.3197]

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:good post, but I feel there's an alternative solution. it's a lot cheaper and less complex, and honestly it's what I would do if I was in charge. I'll lay it out step by step.

1. let the PvP team make balance changes with splits, and roll out patches at different times to the PvE patches.

2. appoint a community representative/leader from the PvP team. I'm thinking this would be Ben, as he talks the community the most. alternatively you could hire Jebro to do the communication aspect.

3. gather up, say four ex-pro players. personally I would choose Chaith, Phantaram, Sind, and Helseth. invite these players to participate in a monthly balance podcast (streamed thru twitch, a la teatime).

4. give the ex-pros a week or so to prepare a hypothetical balance change list. let them talk to their audience and other community members about this. then have the ex-pros and the PvP teams representative discuss the changes live over twitch. with the goal being to end up with a rough balance patch at the end of the stream.

5. clean up the balance patch, and roll it out within a week of the stream.

6. repeat every 1-2 months as needed.

I honestly think this would sort balance out within a few months, and do huge things to improve community attitude. adding new gamemodes, like 2v2 or GvG could come later. but I feel the way to go is to utilise the talent and tools we have to fix the gammode we have before moving on to new content.

just my 2c

I like this idea

If you put it in the hands of helseth , mesmer would be more godlike than it already is. Kid always complains about mesmer but one of the biggest classes next to thief in conquest. No offense, the only non-biased people on that list is Chaith and Phantaram. You need non-biased top players representing balance changes not people who would only look to make their own team stronger and/or class stronger.

Of course, your idea isn't anything new... Grouch used to do this exact thing secretly and house private spreadsheets with top players in the NA/EU scene on balance changes and things tested internally with them , until it got leaked one day by Backpack on stream and people got mad and upset that top players were basically just trying to make their existing comps stronger and not actually balance the game, this is why something like this would never work unless you brought in strictly non-biased players.

Chaith and Phantaram unbiased? LUL afaik both of them were defending broken cele builds saying they are perfectly fine just because they mained it.

At least Helseth was against bunker mes when it was the meta.

[Shard.4791]

TL;DR. Where can I throw my 50 euros?

[Abazigal.3679]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:ye and if you think pvp is currently "on its way out the door" or "more nails in the coffin". Sry to say... the game died when Elite specs were introduced.

grouch leaving combined with elites was the end. it’s just the slow bleed out after the death blow now

I'm not sure elites introduction in HoT were the beginning of the end, more likely ones from PoF. Back then, we had several plagues as DH, hambow and stuff, but it felt like they were playable with and against. Right now, i'm enjoying unranked arena because i'm not facing a combinaison of spellbreaker/scourg/firebrand. Worse, i don't even feel like joining tournaments in order to get rolled 500-50 with a random group ( and i can't imagine how it is when it's below gold players), or to have an even match that is going to be decided on 1 little mistake. I liked trying to find solutions in team chat in order to get back in the game in solo queue( whether it's about winning or getting a less harder lose), but with the new elites from PoF, most of the time there is no point.

Tournaments need to be more " beginner friendly " in order to improve the competitive scene. That's what happened in GW1, which made players interest themselves in high play and try to get better. Actually, GW1 tournament system was perfect..

[witcher.3197]

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:ye and if you think pvp is currently "on its way out the door" or "more nails in the coffin". Sry to say... the game died when Elite specs were introduced.

grouch leaving combined with elites was the end. it’s just the slow bleed out after the death blow now

I'm not sure elites introduction in HoT were the beginning of the end, more likely ones from PoF. Back then, we had several plagues as DH, hambow and stuff, but it felt like they were playable with and against. Right now, i'm enjoying unranked arena because i'm not facing a combinaison of spellbreaker/scourg/firebrand. Worse, i don't even feel like joining tournaments in order to get rolled 500-50 with a random group ( and i can't imagine how it is when it's below gold players), or to have an even match that is going to be decided on 1 little mistake. I liked trying to find solutions in team chat in order to get back in the game in solo queue( whether it's about winning or getting a less harder lose), but with the new elites from PoF, most of the time there is no point.

Tournaments need to be more " beginner friendly " in order to improve the competitive scene. That's what happened in GW1, which made players interest themselves in high play and try to get better. Actually, GW1 tournament system was perfect..

HoT was just as bad as PoF at first. PoF is kind of the anti-HoT: in season 1 nothing died, in season 8 everything melted. HoT made Anet paranoid I guess and now they are afraid to add sustain to the game then went too far into the other direction.. it's almost like balance isn't about going from one extreme to the other..

Elite specs simply added too much of everything. We easily have 10 times the boon application than we did at vanilla GW2, and things like boon corruption went from being tied to utility slots with 40s CD, to autoattacks.. let that sink in. Quickness used to be a rare thing, now in raids where it doesn't get ripped people can have permanent upkeep on the whole team, and revenant can have access to it without a cooldown.

Elite specs killed the combat of this game. They trivialized everything and made the game a brainless spamfest thanks to the worst case of powercreep I have ever seen.

[Ledavi.1803]

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:When the PvP area was turned into a pve reward Hunter farm.

this is a common thought - but I see it differently, hope others do as well. I think the PVE rewards have some downsides, but the upside that I would argue is that maybe we get a few conversions/additions to the more serious PvP community

[Swagg.9236]

Given how GW1's combat functioned, if anet really wanted a sequel to the franchise's flagship game, the next progression in Guild Wars combat probably would have resembled something like Dark Souls 3 with jumping. I mean, think about it:

• Both are heavily reliant on tab targeting for projectile attacks.
• Both lock players into a stationary (or near-stationary in DaS's case) animation when performing actions.
• Both have a high emphasis on clear telegraphs, spacing, timing and risk-vs-reward attacks.
• Both utilize global resource systems.
• Both even feature instanced PvE with difficulty tailored to a limited party size.

The only big difference is how Souls games can technically be played entirely without use of the targeting system (although ranged attacks might suffer in consistency).

[Rukia.9860]

GW1 was designed as strategic gameplay but still had the fast reflex / decision making component. The biggest difference between that and GW2 is here you just smash face on keyboard with as much aoe possible or whatever cheap gimmick you have access to. You don't need to think at all to excel at anything in this game which is why it feels so horrible to fight these builds.

GW was definitely ahead of its time, I agree if twitch & streaming was mainstream back then it would still be the top pvp game on the market. "why not go play it" well why did the devs abandon it... no one wants to play a dead game with no change in meta . Even a skeleton crew would be better than nothing, they just want to forget about GW cuz it's all new devs and they have ZERO experience with its systems or playstyle. Honestly it's probably for the best, they would turn it into another GW2 and no one wants that.

RIP MMO pvp they all suck these days it's either play a moba or get lost unfortunately. Even WoW has better pvp in Legion's incredibly stale gameplay and massively over-pruned skillset. At least I aint dying in 2 seconds from 9000 conditions. See there are huge downsides to making games accessible to even a 90 year old grandma or 3 year old child. No offense to either of those, it's just the truth. GW2 is a disgrace to the name imo, we can't even compare it with a straight face. I blame the devs that left ANet for a stupid zombie game.. it's not even these guys fault.

ANet went from a small team of gamers to a HUGE team of developers during GW2 development, and it all happened way too fast. No ones on the same track, they have horrible communication even inside their own office, it is very apparent.

At this point they need a massive overhaul to the entire game to make pvp enjoyable or viable option even, and that just aint gonna happen. This was also the case since the beginning, come on every GW vet knew this pvp was never going to last, so we shouldn't act surprised. It is clear they have given up, from here on it's just more power creep and passives. I don't know why I fooled myself into coming back to spvp thinking it was going to be half decent again. Oh and we still only have one mode GG lol.

[Ithilwen.1529]

I would not be confident in Arena Net "remastering" GW1. Better that games stays where it is. I stand by my suggestion that a fractal or some similar justification could happen in GW2, allowing GW1 pvp gameplay. In fact such a fractal already exists, I believe.

More realistically, have the devs play GW1, play through at least Prophecies if not all the way to Nightfall. I was able to do it in a matter of days once I got focused. This would give them a much better perspective on Tyria, the way the powers work and are balanced and the intent of the classes.

Don't let them make changes in GW1. Have them play through as a familiarization process.

[Gandarel.5091]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I would not be confident in Arena Net "remastering" GW1. Better that games stays where it is. I stand by my suggestion that a fractal or some similar justification could happen in GW2, allowing GW1 pvp gameplay. In fact such a fractal already exists, I believe.

More realistically, have the devs play GW1, play through at least Prophecies if not all the way to Nightfall. I was able to do it in a matter of days once I got focused. This would give them a much better perspective on Tyria, the way the powers work and are balanced and the intent of the classes.

Don't let them make changes in GW1. Have them play through as a familiarization process.

A remastered version means an updated, new release of an old game. The current GW1 servers would keep existing as they are.

[Kalibri.5861]

I agree with more communication in general. PvP and WvW both could desperately use more real, interactive dev time with the community.

But I don't see why you guys seem to think that spectating GW1 PvP is so much more engaging - to me it's never been compelling, and you still have to know so much about each player's build to have any real insight to what's going on. I feel like a lot of the 'GW1 was so much better' sentiment comes from nostalgia. There definitely were some mechanical differences which were simpler - GW2's downed state complicates things a lot and builds are significantly more complex, but ultimately neither GW1 nor GW2 is the sort of game where you can just see and understand a lot of what's going on like you can with StarCraft or Street Fighter or Overwatch. In terms of an e-sports community, enjoying a match would require that the viewer be intimately familiar with the game. The systems are intricate with fast-flying skill visuals and effects that may be invisible or nondescript, so unless you naturally comprehend what those skills mean and do, it makes it very hard to pick up for the uninitiated.

[witcher.3197]

@Kalibri.5861 said:I agree with more communication in general. PvP and WvW both could desperately use more real, interactive dev time with the community.

But I don't see why you guys seem to think that spectating GW1 PvP is so much more engaging - to me it's never been compelling, and you still have to know so much about each player's build to have any real insight to what's going on. I feel like a lot of the 'GW1 was so much better' sentiment comes from nostalgia. There definitely were some mechanical differences which were simpler - GW2's downed state complicates things a lot and builds are significantly more complex, but ultimately neither GW1 nor GW2 is the sort of game where you can just see and understand a lot of what's going on like you can with StarCraft or Street Fighter or Overwatch. In terms of an e-sports community, enjoying a match would require that the viewer be intimately familiar with the game. The systems are intricate with fast-flying skill visuals and effects that may be invisible or nondescript, so unless you naturally comprehend what those skills mean and do, it makes it very hard to pick up for the uninitiated.

I never understood the arguement of "it's not good enough for spectating because people who don't play the game don't know what's going on" - is there any game where you understand 100% whats going on if you never played it? And why is it important? But for the record GW1 IS easier to spectate, by far. Barely any pulsing AoEs are used in PvP, combat is a lot less spammy, players have fewer skills, no downstate, action isn't happening in 4 different places on the map at the same time, less visual noise on spells, etc.

Part of it is nostalgia, sure, but I for one can't bear to play GW2 PvP anymore, it's just cancer. On the other hand I still do GW1 RA/FA/JQ from time to time and it's a lot more fun. I enjoy having to use my brain in combat, and in GW2 I could feel my brain cells dying after playing 1 match on scourge vs scourge.

GW1 combat is not perfect, it'd need a few small QoL changes but even now it's a far better PvP game. It's a shame that Anet became such a carebear company. I wish they'd just sell GW1 to Blizzard or Riot.

[Ragmon.6350]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:Gw2 pvp is better than gw1.

LOl you're kidding right?

GW1 PvP was great....

..in 2006

And its still better the Gw2's PvP in 2018. :D

[Deack.9286]

@Crinn.7864 said:Gw2 pvp is better than gw1.

I just needed to enter and say this is a good joke. I have GW2 and played since it was released, and the only thing I realized about this game it is that it only makes me want to play GW1 so hard that now after 6 years of entering internet to find if they are about to release any remaster or anything else about gw1 I'm back to play GW1 every day and I enjoy it like I did back in 2005. After some years of gw2 playing the only thing I got is desire to play gw1... And this is because GW2 is a fail. If ANet releases a remaster GW1 they will lose tons of players in GW2. So I can only think in a GW1 remaster as some kind of GW3, I dream every night about that. I only hope one day it is released. If not some day I will try to develop something similar to this game. It is so unique that after playing the most of the games in the market I only keep with this one in my mind.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@"getalifeturd.8139" said:Here's some videos of Guild Wars 1 if any of you need convincing of its gameplay potential and have never played it.

This is what people talk about when they mention GW1 had 1000 skills, dual class system and healers. The metagame was complex and had many balanced counters.https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/PvX_wiki

Even some of these skills could stop the burst damage in GW1 like protective spirit or guardian. Although hex and conditions removal was just as important along with healing of course.http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_monk_skills

And finally this is my thread in the WvWvW forums if you wish to read my thoughts about the current game.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9961/power-creep-and-the-meta/p1

I truly hope Arenanet notices that they already have an amazing game for pvp in GW1 and develop it into the esport it always should of been. The current esports such as LoL are a joke and only popular like WoW because the majority can understand them easily.

If you never played GW1 you don't know what you're missing. Even with heroes you will discover a complex difficult solo challenge where its all about theorycrafting your builds for the area you're in. The game still has people playing it and Kamadan (the starting city of Nightfall expansion) still has people trading and recruiting for their guilds.

You can unlock rewards and a title called God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals for maxing 30 titles which will ensure you experience every part of the game. People played GW1 for years so whenever you see somebody with that title in GW2 you should definitely compliment them for it (I know I do). Here's some links to be able to buy the game from the GW1 website's store and download it. Also the reward calculator if you already have an old GW1 account.

https://www.guildwars.com/en/

https://hom.guildwars2.com/en/#page=welcome

This is obviously CGI, people don't choose to play on teams in competitive games.

[mortrialus.3062]

People were just as miserable and salty about GW1s pvp post factions as they are about GW2 right now.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:People were just as miserable and salty about GW1s pvp post factions as they are about GW2 right now.

Factions introduced shadowsteps which took the whole "good position" out of the equation on the entire pvp scene.GW2 is a lot more dumb down game, it doesn't even compare, if you take that into consideration, GW1 is still to this day more balanced than GW2 ever was.