WHAT TO FIX ON VIRTUOSO (04/13 Update)

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I would rather not have any damage in F4. 

You can mostly get around the problem of reveal by stowing your F4 just before it finishes.

Edited April 11, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[katte nici.9483]

59 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

ppl claiming virt is weak, yet i am constantly losing 1v1s against power virtuosos while winning against almost all other classes (at least 50% of the time). I must be sooo bad at this game 😞

Are you talking about an actual glass power Virtuoso or a Celestial Inspiration "power" Virtuoso? The former should be easy to counter. The latter not so much but will have low dps and no mobility except Blink, no way to chase and pressure you unless you hit into their Aegis. They are very hard to duel against but can otherwise be ignored. Your best bet is to get on a Celestial build yourself and outsustain them and ask A-net to please nerf kind of super boring and annoying game play.

[Salt Mode.3780]

28 minutes ago, katte nici.9483 said:

Are you talking about an actual glass power Virtuoso or a Celestial Inspiration "power" Virtuoso? The former should be easy to counter. The latter not so much but will have low dps and no mobility except Blink, no way to chase and pressure you unless you hit into their Aegis. They are very hard to duel against but can otherwise be ignored. Your best bet is to get on a Celestial build yourself and outsustain them and ask A-net to please nerf kind of super boring and annoying game play.

Naw people love their celestial stats, hard defend it because its super easy to abuse on these new e-specs.

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, katte nici.9483 said:

Are you talking about an actual glass power Virtuoso or a Celestial Inspiration "power" Virtuoso? The former should be easy to counter. The latter not so much but will have low dps and no mobility except Blink, no way to chase and pressure you unless you hit into their Aegis. They are very hard to duel against but can otherwise be ignored. Your best bet is to get on a Celestial build yourself and outsustain them and ask A-net to please nerf kind of super boring and annoying game play.

Celestial in general needs a point shave.  That's probably the easiest and best thing to do as apposed to trying to balance all skills and traits using a stat set.

Edited April 11, 2022 by phokus.8934

[Mell.4873]

17 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Virtuoso damage is really, really undertuned given how it has absolutely no utility in SPvP in particular, where you're lucky to get 5 or 6k damage on the F1 on a beserker amulet. 

When did anyone say anything about sPvP this all started from golem dps so I'm assuming PvE. How the heck can you reproduce any golem number in PvP so in that respect I agree. 

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

ppl claiming virt is weak, yet i am constantly losing 1v1s against power virtuosos while winning against almost all other classes (at least 50% of the time). I must be sooo bad at this game 😞

Yeah I find that to, I would say in WvW it is a pretty even split between Virtuoso and Mirage so in a group of 20 players I'm likely to see one each. 

For sPvP it's a different story I find almost no Mesmer classes except Virtuoso and maybe the odd mirage every 10 games. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Mell.4873

[mortrialus.3062]

58 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Yeah I find that to, I would say in WvW it is a pretty even split between Virtuoso and Mirage so in a group of 20 players I'm likely to see one each. 

For sPvP it's a different story I find almost no Mesmer classes except Virtuoso and maybe the odd mirage every 10 games. 

You're in gold and even you've stated you would drop rating heavily if you used virtuoso.

 

I grinded two gifts of battle for aurene legendaries and dunked on literally every virtuoso i fought.

Edited April 11, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Mell.4873]

37 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

You're in gold and even you've stated you would drop rating heavily if you used virtuoso.

 

I grinded two gifts of battle for aurene legendaries and dunked on literally every virtuoso i fought.

Yeah so I guess people play Virtuoso and then drop rank, I mean I don't really know. All I can say is I do see them so I guess we can confirm that they exist in gold.

[mortrialus.3062]

So to be fair Virtuoso does pretty incredible damage in PvE.  It's a great choice in any group content when you don't need Alacrity or Quickness and for a good chunk of open world content.

I still don't think it's a "great" open world build.  It certainly doesn't have the legendary boss killing potential of Mirage though how many things really do.  And even for a lot just running around the general quality of life provided by open world chrono greatly surpasses Virtuoso. 

I genuinely challenge any one who loves Virtuoso to make a build that can comfortably take on WoodenPotatoe's Fire Djinn Challenge, which is kind of his benchmark for if an open world build is well rounded enough, as quickly or as comfortably as I did on Chrono and post a video.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[mungozen.2379]

12 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

So to be fair Virtuoso does pretty incredible damage in PvP.  It's a great choice in any group content when you don't need Alacrity or Quickness and for a good chunk of open world content.

I still don't think it's a "great" open world build.  It certainly doesn't have the legendary boss killing potential of Mirage though how many things really do.  And even for a lot just running around the general quality of life provided by open world chrono greatly surpasses Virtuoso. 

I genuinely challenge any one who loves Virtuoso to make a build that can comfortably take on WoodenPotatoe's Fire Djinn Challenge, which is kind of his benchmark for if an open world build is well rounded enough, as quickly or as comfortably as I did on Chrono and post a video.

 

I've never heard of this challenge, what are the requirements?  Just tag all 4 and DPS them down?  I just did so on my Virt, although a bit sloppy since I have bandages on two fingers.

[mortrialus.3062]

Ultimately I think quite a few things need to change with Virtuoso

1.  Bladesong F2 should be changed into a ground targeted AOE that is projectile free, giving Virtuoso more flexibility when fights get any projectile heavy. 

2.  Bladesong F3 needs to be COMPLETELY reworked into something actually usable as now it an extreme 100% downgrade from the core with literally no upsides.  It should either be instant cast with a very, VERY fast projectile like thieve's Headshot.  Or if it keeps it's current cast time should be changed into a stun or a fear or a blowout.  Because right now it's absolutely terrible. 

3. They knocked down the cooldown on F4 in PvP so it does provide decent block uptime, but your biggest threat as a Virtuoso is going to be Daredevils who will still unblockably swipe and interrupt your block off cooldown.  The damage is so low as to be actively detrimental as it'll break Stealth and put revealed on you. 

I think it's workable but the damage should actually be very threatening, so that if something jumps you in PvP you'll actively scare them away, like a Dragonhunter will if you try to attack him and it turns out he's right on top of his Blade Trap. 

4. Dagger Auto's flurry attack doesn't hit moving targets, which in PvP is going to be literally everything. 

5.  Dagger 2 needs to be good damage, at any range and not a shot gun attack which runs counter to the entire thesis statement of the spec. 

6.  Dagger 2 should have a flip over skill that gives you a 600 unit leap back away from the target on a 12 second cooldown, giving Virtuoso a good option to quickly reestablish range.

7.  Dagger 3 should be a ground targeted AOE that can be dropped wherever you want in range.  It should also have cripple or chill.  Giving dagger both a good option when fights get projectile hate heavy, and a way to slow down targets trying to get into melee range.

8. Mental Focus should be replaced with a trait that boosts the Psionic utilities.  Maybe something like "Psionics grant Swiftness, Inflict Chill on enemies and have reduced cooldown."  Which would actually be really excellent rounding out Virtuoso both in PvP and in PvE as it gives Virtuoso more capacity to maintain range and the damage loss from losing the 10% damage bonus in PvE can be moved up to the Infinite Forge as the power grand master.  In PvE it also gives DPS Virtuoso a bit more capacity to help with Breakbars which would be great.

9.  Infinite Forge should be reworked to be a bit more competitive with Bloodsong for PvE blade generation for power damage builds.   Maybe something like "Gain 20% increased damage to foes below 50% health.  Phantasms create an additional blade."  

10.  There's a lot of work that needs to happen to get Virtuoso utilities up and running in PvP besides Blade Renewal.  Though I think my proposed trait that would give them chill would do a ton to help. 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

13 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

So to be fair Virtuoso does pretty incredible damage in PvP. 

 

I assume you meant to say PvE.

[mortrialus.3062]

5 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I assume you meant to say PvE.

Yes, fixed. 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

13 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Ultimately I think quite a few things need to change with Virtuoso

1.  Bladesong F2 should be changed into a ground targeted AOE that is projectile free, giving Virtuoso more flexibility when fights get any projectile heavy. 

2.  Bladesong F3 needs to be COMPLETELY reworked into something actually usable as now it an extreme 100% downgrade from the core with literally no upsides.  It should either be instant cast with a very, VERY fast projectile like thieve's Headshot.  Or if it keeps it's current cast time should be changed into a stun or a fear or a blowout.  Because right now it's absolutely terrible. 

3. They knocked down the cooldown on F4 in PvP so it does provide decent block uptime, but your biggest threat as a Virtuoso is going to be Daredevils who will still unblockably swipe and interrupt your block off cooldown.  The damage is so low as to be actively detrimental as it'll break Stealth and put revealed on you. 

I think it's workable but the damage should actually be very threatening, so that if something jumps you in PvP you'll actively scare them away, like a Dragonhunter will if you try to attack him and it turns out he's right on top of his Blade Trap. 

4. Dagger Auto's flurry attack doesn't hit moving targets, which in PvP is going to be literally everything. 

5.  Dagger 2 needs to be good damage, at any range and not a shot gun attack which runs counter to the entire thesis statement of the spec. 

6.  Dagger 2 should have a flip over skill that gives you a 600 unit leap back away from the target on a 12 second cooldown, giving Virtuoso a good option to quickly reestablish range.

7.  Dagger 3 should be a ground targeted AOE that can be dropped wherever you want in range.  It should also have cripple or chill.  Giving dagger both a good option when fights get projectile hate heavy, and a way to slow down targets trying to get into melee range.

8. Mental Focus should be replaced with a trait that boosts the Psionic utilities.  Maybe something like "Psionics grant Swiftness, Inflict Chill on enemies and have reduced cooldown."  Which would actually be really excellent rounding out Virtuoso both in PvP and in PvE as it gives Virtuoso more capacity to maintain range and the damage loss from losing the 10% damage bonus in PvE can be moved up to the Infinite Forge as the power grand master.  In PvE it also gives DPS Virtuoso a bit more capacity to help with Breakbars which would be great.

9.  Infinite Forge should be reworked to be a bit more competitive with Bloodsong for PvE blade generation for power damage builds.   Maybe something like "Gain 20% increased damage to foes below 50% health.  Phantasms create an additional blade."  

10.  There's a lot of work that needs to happen to get Virtuoso utilities up and running in PvP besides Blade Renewal.  Though I think my proposed trait that would give them chill would do a ton to help. 

Really like some of those ideas and will integrate into OP, though I don't mind dagger 2 - I think they intended for dagger to be more effective at closer range kind of like greatsword with Mirror Blade (hence the design of Mental Focus). And I like that you can bounce it off of the ground (although I wish it bounced quicker instead of "sticking" to the ground/wall). I am also scared of reducing Psionics cooldown mainly because Blade Renewal is as strong as it is but I like the idea of on hit effects (chill, weakness, whatever). The problem with them right now isn't really the cooldown anyway.

Edited April 12, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Made a big update, reformatted it into a priority list (not certain yet if it is better or worse). Added a bunch of video links that you should check out 🙂

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Wow. Very nice video you put together with a lot of work behind it. Really great work. Those graphic settings are cracking me up though!

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

7 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Wow. Very nice video you put together with a lot of work behind it. Really great work. Those graphic settings are cracking me up though!

Yeah sorry and the video is 720p as well because I had two client windows up at the same time.

Edited April 13, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[mortrialus.3062]

Lol how are those graphic setitngs even possible it looks like you've somehow configured Guild Wars 2 to run on the Runescape engine.  A-mazing.  Excellent video tho.

Edited April 14, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[katte nici.9483]

Oh thank you for those videos they show the problems very well. But the graphics. I didn't know there was a mobile version of GW2. 😅

[ZDragon.3046]

Im a bit mixed on this post OP

 

First, you are not suppose to have alot of tools to deal with LoS thats why abusing LoS is a thing in general. Most classes and builds in the game generally get weaker if your foe can LoS you... This is kind of something everyone has to deal with some more some less.

Secondly, requiring someone to hit you to gain an effect is not something new several classes have traits like this and while you may not like them they do serve a purpose. Mesmer is not the only one so it's hard to argue that they should be changed.

Third, Dagger is very weak to kiting well yeah... most weapons are weak to kiting with probably the biggest exception being ranger longbow or something like that. Granted mesmers are weak to kiting in general so its kind of expected. It is the biggest weakness of the base class as a whole and probably should continue to be. That said im not against some of your suggestions for skills like unstable blade storm which 100% does need some help both in pvp and pve.

 

Despite me saying all of this I'm not against most of your weapon skill / trait change ideas as they are decent and seem fair enough when provided with why you would like to see them changed. Just keep in mind that some weaknesses to mesmer need to remain as it is refreshing to see anet design a mesmer spec that does not have instant everything and has tells that are easy enough for everyone to pick up on like most other classes and builds have. 

 

I personally have an issue with stun breaks that have cast times... all of them are poorly designed for the same reason but I cant agree with the psychic force change unless its a suggestions to all stun breaks with a cast times that can be easily interrupted. I think the best thing to do would be just to make it instant with no evade and perhaps generate protection for each foe hit.

 

All of them that have cast times should probably changed as a game wide QoL. A break stun that has a cast time with no movement animation tied to it should probably just be instant cast honestly. 

(Psychic Force | Well of power | Well of Precognition | Darkrazor's Daring | Elixir of Ignorance) Just to name a few examples. 

While skills like Reposting Shadows that break stun have a cast time but also a big movement mobility tied to them are fine as is having the evade. I feel like the less mobile ones should just be instant and the cast time causes more problems than it should. via either getting interrupted or canceling the skill and putting it on full cd cause you need to dodge right after you break but before the cast completes.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

4 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Im a bit mixed on this post OP

 

First, you are not suppose to have alot of tools to deal with LoS thats why abusing LoS is a thing in general. Most classes and builds in the game generally get weaker if your foe can LoS you... This is kind of something everyone has to deal with some more some less.

I agree that Virtuoso should be weak to LoS but it shouldn't be useless. For example, longbow ranger has barrage and they have their pet, dragonhunter has longbow 4 and sword 2. Core greatsword mesmer is also weak to LoS because phantasms won't spawn etc, but you have sword 3 so you aren't completely useless. Vs virtuoso you are borderline unkillable if you just go behind cover (especially if it is on a spot you can't blink to).

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Secondly, requiring someone to hit you to gain an effect is not something new several classes have traits like this and while you may not like them they do serve a purpose. Mesmer is not the only one so it's hard to argue that they should be changed.

I didn't suggest any changes for Bladeturn Refrain, Duelist's Reversal or Psychic Riposte (except I would like to see the unblockble not tied to one of three gm traits). Just pointed out relying so heavily on such on-block traits, especially to do damage, produces clunky gameplay. But it's fine, as long as there are options, which there aren't right now because those traits are so much stronger.

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Third, Dagger is very weak to kiting well yeah... most weapons are weak to kiting with probably the biggest exception being ranger longbow or something like that. Granted mesmers are weak to kiting in general so its kind of expected. It is the biggest weakness of the base class as a whole and probably should continue to be. That said im not against some of your suggestions for skills like unstable blade storm which 100% does need some help both in pvp and pve.

Core Mesmer greatsword and sword are examples of a weapons that aren't nearly as weak to kiting. Somebody goes up on a rock, you throw a Mirror Blade, you use Phantasmal Berserker followed by Mind Wrack. Dagger is unusually weak to kiting because despite being a ranged weapon, the skills only really do damage in close-to melee range and Unstable Bladestorm travels along the ground (so if somebody is standing on a rock or box or whatever, it does nothing). Other weapons that are weak to kiting tend to be defensive weapons (like scepter) but dagger does not have any defensive aspect.

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Despite me saying all of this I'm not against most of your weapon skill / trait change ideas as they are decent and seem fair enough when provided with why you would like to see them changed. Just keep in mind that some weaknesses to mesmer need to remain as it is refreshing to see anet design a mesmer spec that does not have instant everything and has tells that are easy enough for everyone to pick up on like most other classes and builds have. 

Yeah. For me it isn't necessary for Virtuoso to be meta or anything, but I would like it to have options and to be skillful and to fix some of the clunky or buggy skills as well as some of the useless traits. I think once some of this is fixed, Blade Renewal and Bladeturn Requiem cooldowns should probably even be nerfed. We will see.

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I personally have an issue with stun breaks that have cast times... all of them are poorly designed for the same reason but I cant agree with the psychic force change unless its a suggestions to all stun breaks with a cast times that can be easily interrupted. I think the best thing to do would be just to make it instant with no evade and perhaps generate protection for each foe hit.

Instant knockback is very toxic so this is not a great idea. Also, from the top of my head, there aren't really many stunbreaks that have an attack tied to them and if they do, they tend to be on tankier classes and tend to give stability on cast, like warrior stomp.

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All of them that have cast times should probably changed as a game wide QoL. A break stun that has a cast time with no movement animation tied to it should probably just be instant cast honestly. 

(Psychic Force | Well of power | Well of Precognition | Darkrazor's Daring | Elixir of Ignorance) Just to name a few examples. 

While skills like Reposting Shadows that break stun have a cast time but also a big movement mobility tied to them are fine as is having the evade. I feel like the less mobile ones should just be instant and the cast time causes more problems than it should. via either getting interrupted or canceling the skill and putting it on full cd cause you need to dodge right after you break but before the cast completes.

In general I'd agree but Psychic Force is a knockback so it shouldn't be instant, also to me an evade would fit the Psychic Force animation (unlike say Well of Power), but maybe you disagree on that.

Edited April 14, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741