Congrats on Dragon's End

[KurokouNekoki.7891]

3 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Because it's my gold, and why should I have to pay for others just because people want the meta to succed ? Plus, you can buy berserker items from the trading post for like no gold at all.

And that's my point about this... some people have no problems to improve what they can to win (with their builds they have because they like to play what they are playing) (Stats and Traits is fine to swap but getting new armor, new weapons, new trinkets, new sigils and runes, that adds up and becoming less inticing), without having to chow out themselves.

AS people stated in others threads, there is a lot of NEW Players, and they might not have as much gold or abilities to get that build people wants them to have so much, then it should be given to them, the chance to at least try without being persecuted.

Edited March 8, 2022 by KurokouNekoki.7891

[Raknar.4735]

17 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Perhaps I am, but that is because I have grown tired of others that do not want to improve, the ability to clear the meta is there, people have cleared it, but some people are absolutley refusing any chance possible to actually beat it by just changing some traits/gear. If every player did this, if everyone brought a good build, this meta would have a MUCH higher success chance, and then, when the meta is over, they go back to their prefered build and gear.

 

But instead of doing that, they want the meta nerfed, because they do not want to put in the effort to get the new shiny thing, that is what has been starting to irk me, people just want nerfs nerfs nerfs, instead of trying to improve themselves.

 

Absolutley, and then I pass that knowledge on to others seeking to improve, they know the game far better than I did at the point when I started raiding, when I got into the game, reading guides is not dangerous, they won't bite, but people refuse to for some reason, I don't get it, at all.

 

And yeah, the new raiders wanted to improve, to get better at the game, and guess what they're not doing right now, complaining.

Oh they do, they very much do, infact a large portion of Dark Souls playerbase is a "Git gud" player, because they know the only way to beat it is to get better, and if not, you just summon a player. That knows what to do, because he took the time to get better at the game.

 

So to sum it up, people can EASILY improve, but they refuse to, even when it would benefit not only themselves, but the wide GW2 community. 

Yep 0% introspection and continues his tirade against players that don’t play how he wants them to play. It baffles me how you’re not trying to improve on that. That would actually benefit the GW2 community at large.
Only sees his perspective and other opinions are invalidated. Postures as if he helps others, when he actually doesn’t. Unironically misuses git gud, because he doesn’t get it. Doesn’t get what the Souls community is about. There’s no such thing as a “git gud” player.

Sorry, but i just can’t 🤣 with you. And just to annoy you a little more: Nerfs are going to happen one way or the other. Anet already said as much.

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Raknar.4735

[GoldenPants.1870]

1 minute ago, KurokouNekoki.7891 said:

And that's my point about this... some people have no problems to improve what they can to win (with their builds they have because they like to play what they are playing) (Stats and Traits is fine to swap but getting new armor, new weapons, new trinkets, new sigils and runes, that adds up and becoming less inticing), without having to chow out themselves.

Because that's not our problem, would I pay to help a fellow raider in training out for gear ? Absolutley. 

 

Would I pay an open world player that I don't know ? Absolutley not.

[GoldenPants.1870]

1 minute ago, Raknar.4735 said:

Sorry, but i just can’t 🤣 with you. And just to annoy you a little more: Nerfs are going to happen one way or the other. Anet already said as much.

Yepp, but I already have my turtle. And many others who can't complete the meta don't. So they will simply just have to wait while I have fun. 

[KurokouNekoki.7891]

2 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Because that's not our problem, would I pay to help a fellow raider in training out for gear ? Absolutley. 

 

Would I pay an open world player that I don't know ? Absolutley not.

And that's the problem... You are not willing to help enough for this level of commitment.
I mean that's more than fair justification in practically anyone shoes, but that's just puts more proofs as to why designing events like this is pure bad ideas (in ANet side of things) and that this type of practice shouldn't be protected.

Edited March 8, 2022 by KurokouNekoki.7891

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

So to sum it up, people can EASILY improve, but they refuse to, even when it would benefit not only themselves, but the wide GW2 community. 

Yeah, it is extreme just how bad faith this argument is. The feedback you get in open world is bad. Defiance damage isn't displayed at all. Lots of information is spread around tiny icons. I literally learned about the exposed effect from the patch notes. I'm not even kidding. I always thought bosses would just do a strong attack if you don't break the CC bar. Or would transition to a more difficult phase or something along those lines. My DPS only improved from ~4k to ~25k only once I installed arcdps. I never even knew I wasn't pulling my own eight. Boon uptime is still mostly a mystery. That's not done "EASILY". It takes a lot of time and lots of out of game work.

If GW2 was providing good feedback about your performance, making it easy to see where things go wrong and give you plenty of opportunity to improve without reading up massive guides or literally hundreds of skills. Doing elaborate theory crafting and what not. And then ramping up difficulty over time.

Sure, you'd have a point. 

But as it stands, the hard barrier that is this event. Having to go from 1 to 10 in the span of a single event that's expected to be played as part of the story. That's just absurd. Telling people to git gud as response, making it about some elitist mentality where only extreme difficulty, constant failure and massive time investments are good. 

That's not benefiting the wide community. It's harming it. Badly. You're literally just antagonizing everyone who isn't in your position. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[GoldenPants.1870]

Just now, KurokouNekoki.7891 said:

And that's the problem... You are not willing to help enough for this level of commitment.
I mean that's more than fair justification in practically anyone shoes, but that's just puts more proofs as to why designing events like this is pure bad ideas (in ANet side of things).

If people were willing to improve, I would go out of my way to help them, but open world players don't. So why should I spend my hard earned currency on people who do not even want to try ?

[KurokouNekoki.7891]

1 minute ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Yepp, but I already have my turtle. And many others who can't complete the meta don't. So they will simply just have to wait while I have fun. 

Tbh a lot of us have moved to something more chill like Fishing, so on my end I'm patient and can wait. But people will not be patient forever and in the end ANet will suffer from this; definitively not me though.

Just here listening to sea shanties while popping my fishing rod into those waters.

[Raknar.4735]

Just now, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Yepp, but I already have my turtle. And many others who can't complete the meta don't. So they will simply just have to wait while I have fun. 

I’m also enjoying my turtle. I’m happy others will soon, too, once the changes are in 😁

[KurokouNekoki.7891]

6 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

If people were willing to improve, I would go out of my way to help them, but open world players don't. So why should I spend my hard earned currency on people who do not even want to try ?

And that's the misconception that this type of game design is bringing.
Because of the many failures you think that people don't want to improve, but there is one thing that would help a lot, and that is "Morale" (like troop morale).

I think by now a lot of us are just exhasperated by this event loop that never ends.
Changing our build by pitching more money out of our wallets is NOT motivating for a stupid turtle mount in the slightiest by now.

We have OR are learning the mechanics, but it ends by always having another obstacle that block the path to that green leaf eating beast that farts jet fuel.

My first run, I sucked terribly, I didn't know what to do and where to go... and I seen improvement over the multiple attempts I have done. But it is still not enough at the moment because of either the Design or an outside variable. (In the end you roll the dices and see if it lands on a win or not).

Edited March 8, 2022 by KurokouNekoki.7891

[GoldenPants.1870]

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Defiance damage isn't displayed at all. Lots of information is spread around tiny icons.

You do learn it from the starting mission of EoD, infact, it gives you a tutorial on how it works, it should have been in the base game but here we are. And now they have improved it even more, as it says how strong the break bar is, and how much CC your abilities do in the tooltip.

 

3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

My CC only improved from ~4k to ~25k only once I installed arcdps. I never even knew I wasn't pulling my own eight. Boon uptime is still mostly a mystery. That's not done "EASILY". It takes a lot of time and lots of out of game work.

Because why ? You took the time to research, and thus, you improved, honestly all someone has to do is to go onto the wiki and read how the various stats/abilities work. Even that alone could be a huge help.

 

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

If GW2 was providing good feedback about your performance, making it easy to see where things go wrong and give you plenty of opportunity to improve without reading up massive guides or literally hundreds of skills. Doing elaborate theory crafting and what not. And then ramping up difficulty over time.

Luckily most of us do not need to theorycraft, there's already top players that do that for us, which is nice, but I do agree on the game needing to tell you when you screwed up. But this is the case for all games, you need to get familiar to get better at them, that is also why I often visit the wiki when I try to do something I have not done before, I.e trying to create new original builds.

 

7 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

That's just absurd. Telling people to git gud as response, making it about some elitist mentality where only extreme difficulty, constant failure and massive time investments are good. 

That's not benefiting the wide community. It's harming it. Badly. You're literally just antagonizing everyone who isn't in your position. 

I mean, what else is there to do in the current situation until Anet decides to nerf the event ? Give me any other reasonable options, if you have any I would be happy to hear them. Either you switch builds and gear and read up on guides or you need to wait until it's nerfed. There's no other alternative.

[GoldenPants.1870]

6 minutes ago, KurokouNekoki.7891 said:

Because of the many failures you think that people don't want to improve, but there is one thing that would help a lot, and that is "Morale" (like troop morale).

No, that's more of the mindset currently on the forums that gives me this impression.

 

7 minutes ago, KurokouNekoki.7891 said:

Changing our build by pitching more money out of our wallets is NOT motivating for a stupid turtle mount in the slightiest by now.

I mean, the rest of us had to do it, I don't exactly get a free pass either, I would have loved to play my new Virtuoso build in the new meta, but I didn't, I got on my healbrand instead, why ? Because that is what we needed. And I can assure you that the gear on any of my characters did not come from anyone else paying me to get it. I had to pay for all of it.

 

8 minutes ago, KurokouNekoki.7891 said:

My first run, I sucked terribly, I didn't know what to do and where to go... and I seen improvement over the multiple attempts I have done. But it is still not enough at the moment because of either the Design or an outside variable. (In the end you roll the dices and see if it lands on a win or not).

And see what you did there, you saw what went wrong, you analyzed it, and then you took steps in how to not screw up again, you improved, I have seen many people that even refuse to learn from their mistakes.

[KurokouNekoki.7891]

13 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

No, that's more of the mindset currently on the forums that gives me this impression.

 

I mean, the rest of us had to do it, I don't exactly get a free pass either, I would have loved to play my new Virtuoso build in the new meta, but I didn't, I got on my healbrand instead, why ? Because that is what we needed. And I can assure you that the gear on any of my characters did not come from anyone else paying me to get it. I had to pay for all of it.

 

And see what you did there, you saw what went wrong, you analyzed it, and then you took steps in how to not screw up again, you improved, I have seen many people that even refuse to learn from their mistakes.

To be honest, I would like to defend more people and also ANet, but I do draw the line in the sand where I feel it needs to.

I often pass as an ingrate or a mean guy, but in the end I view my side as rather neutral, there is always place for improvement in my book, assuming that the related parties are willing to do so and talk about it civilizely (as of late the forums have been rather pure flames, fires and burning oil in my opinion), may that be the players or the developers; obviously we cannot ask that of an AI... but you get the gist.

-------------
That need to always need more gear is exactly why, and what changed from everything we have known at the start. Before this harder content has came out there was a lot less "gear grinding" as there is now, and it feels almost like a new law for this game, which I'm questionning if it a good idea.

After we have spend 5000 gold in temporary new gear I wonder what people will end up thinking.
(Yes Legendary Armory and stuff, but not everyone is as fortunate to have a full wardrobe of them).

Edited March 8, 2022 by KurokouNekoki.7891

[Erise.5614]

27 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

You do learn it from the starting mission of EoD, infact, it gives you a tutorial on how it works, it should have been in the base game but here we are. And now they have improved it even more, as it says how strong the break bar is, and how much CC your abilities do in the tooltip.

That is barely enough to teach awareness about the existence of the mechanic. There is absolutely no feedback, not even in the tutorial, about how good I'm doing. I have to look at the defiance bar and use a skill with no one else nearby to have a chance to see the result of my action. That is terrible feedback. And someone who's not doing so good on that in open world will never be able to learn to be better.

27 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Because why ? You took the time to research, and thus, you improved, honestly all someone has to do is to go onto the wiki and read how the various stats/abilities work. Even that alone could be a huge help.

Yes. And it was out of game, third party content, installation, information. This is fine for hardcore content. It is not fine to be the expected base line in the game. It was annoying. It took a lot of read, look at enemy, look at my skills, activate one, look at enemy again, see what changed, try to remember and repeat.

It wasn't at all enjoyable. I enjoy some of the content I can play now but the path towards that was not fun at all.

Made barely passable due to having a second monitor. Which isn't the default either (about 30% of gamers have two monitors) and just increases all difficulties and annoyances tenfold. 

27 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Luckily most of us do not need to theorycraft, there's already top players that do that for us, which is nice, but I do agree on the game needing to tell you when you screwed up. But this is the case for all games, you need to get familiar to get better at them, that is also why I often visit the wiki when I try to do something I have not done before, I.e trying to create new original builds.

Again. Yet another third party resource I need to know about, look up, follow closely until I can maybe be fine. A lot of people enjoy theory crafting while they don't enjoy min maxing. Because yes. That is an option. And ever since I learned about this I lost this aspect of the game. Crafting new gear is expensive if done frequently and whatever I come up with isn't optimal anyway. Expected to be thrown away and changed. So why bother?

The hardcore part of the community forces you to not play what you enjoy gameplay wise but to be meta or gtfo. 

27 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

I mean, what else is there to do in the current situation until Anet decides to nerf the event ? Give me any other reasonable options, if you have any I would be happy to hear them. Either you switch builds and gear and read up on guides or you need to wait until it's nerfed. There's no other alternative.

What else is there to do but antagonizing others?

I mean. Lots, but even doing nothing is better by a lot. Not being an kitten is literally less effort than being one. Letting people vent their frustration is better than whatever you think you're doing. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

Really love the fight. All needs fixing is RNG-based boss movements, and the "wish I could /gg" twisters with absolutely humongous scaling breakbars (Ren's darkrazor, shiro jade, staff brrt dented one by about a third).

[KurokouNekoki.7891]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

Really love the fight. All needs fixing is RNG-based boss movements, and the "wish I could /gg" twisters with absolutely humongous scaling breakbars (Ren's darkrazor, shiro jade, staff brrt dented one by about a third).

The Twisters absolutely made me sick xD
There is something that should never happen and "You Spin me round round, like a broken record" is one of them.

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

That is barely enough to teach awareness about the existence of the mechanic. There is absolutely no feedback, not even in the tutorial, about how good I'm doing. I have to look at the defiance bar and use a skill with no one else nearby to have a chance to see the result of my action. That is terrible feedback. And someone who's not doing so good on that in open world will never be able to learn to be better.

You get that mechanic explained at the start of the EoD story when you're guided to the practice arenas and you have to complete them in order to proceed with the story. I fail to see how "use a skill, see the blue bar go down" after just having it explained to you is in any way "terrible feedback". From what I've seen by now, these arena's aren't generally camped, so "being the only one around" to more accurately test the mechanic shouldn't be a problem.

[KurokouNekoki.7891]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

You get that mechanic explained at the start of the EoD story when you're guided to the practice arenas and you have to complete them in order to proceed with the story. I fail to see how "use a skill, see the blue bar go down" after just having it explained to you is in any way "terrible feedback". From what I've seen by now, these arena's aren't generally camped, so "being the only one around" to more accurately test the mechanic shouldn't be a problem.

I think they are referring to the difference between the Hard CC and the Soft CC and which one does what.
Most of META requires you to do Quick and efficient CC (Hard) while chipping Damage (Soft) on the side.
But that is not properly introduced, they just say, break my bar when you see it and that's pretty much it.
The wiki is a fair source of information for that thing, but again if that tutorial was in the begining core Maps, "PERHAPS" players (who may have boosted) to get the turtle wouldn't struggle to that point.

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, KurokouNekoki.7891 said:

I think they are referring to the difference between the Hard CC and the Soft CC and which one does what.

That can also be easly tested in the same way I've mentioned above though?

Quote

The wiki is a fair source of information for that thing, but again if that tutorial was in the begining core Maps, "PERHAPS" players (who may have boosted) to get the turtle wouldn't struggle to that point.

Sorry, but "I've skipped the tutorial to get late-game rewards and now I don't understand the mechanics" always seemed like a weak reasoning for anything to me. If someone boosted and rushed to literally the last/latest meta content added to the game for the sake of grinding out the latest reward asap, then it's on them, not on the game.

I agree that tutorial should have been a thing in core (and starting Hot/PoF zones, just like it is in EoD), but at this point that ship has sailed, so right now all I can say here is... better late then never 😉

Edited March 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You get that mechanic explained at the start of the EoD story when you're guided to the practice arenas and you have to complete them in order to proceed with the story. I fail to see how "use a skill, see the blue bar go down" after just having it explained to you is in any way "terrible feedback". From what I've seen by now, these arena's aren't generally camped, so "being the only one around" to more accurately test the mechanic shouldn't be a problem.

It is borderline pointless. You don't think about how it could help.

You only think about how obvious it feels to you and use that to push blame on others.

Example. A friend of mine came back after 3 years of taking a break. We played the story together. Upon running into that step of the story he got stuck and confused. I explained it. He didn't know his new specialization and weapon yet though so he just tried out his weapon skills and spammed the one that had 100 CC 3 times to finally move on. And he doesn't even struggle with keeping the right targets selected. Which is a different skill that's always forgotten about by people like you.

It's not a good tutorial at all. The feedback within it is barely passable. 

And afterwards, especially in open world play, you just never get any feedback again at all. When I use CC on a boss. I know I deal CC but I really don't see it. The bar goes down whether I do anything or not. I can't tell whether it was slightly faster because of me. I know it does. But I can't see that at all. There's tons of mechanics like that in GW2. 

[KurokouNekoki.7891]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Sorry, but "I've skipped the tutorial to get late-game rewards and now I don't understand the mechanics" always seemed like a weak reasoning for anything to me. If someone boosted and rushed to literally the last/latest meta content added to the game for the sake of grinding out the latest reward asap, then it's on them, not on the game.

Agreed, hands down on this.

[Sobx.1758]

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It is borderline pointless. You don't think about how it could help.

You only think about how obvious it feels to you and use that to push blame on others.

No, I don't.

Players going into EoD start a story content, get guided to the practice areas in the early stages and then have to complete some tasks to proceed with the story. When they get into the arena with defiance bar mech and don't know what to do, there's very clearly an instructor standing right at the entrance to it that explains what the blue bar is, what it does and how you can get rid of it. I'm not "only thinking about how obvious it feels", I'm thinking "how the player going into new content following the story does the content they don't understand", so stop pretending I'm doing something I don't in an effort to dismiss the existance of clear guide about the mechanic you want to pretend isn't explained there.

Now, if I focused on "what I know and how it feels for me" like you're trying to claim, I'd say: go into that content and rush through it, because I know everything anyways, no tutorials needed, easy, np. And that's not even close to what I say here on in my previous post.

Quote

Example. A friend of mine came back after 3 years of taking a break. We played the story together. Upon running into that step of the story he got stuck and confused. I explained it. He didn't know his new specialization and weapon yet though so he just tried out his weapon skills and spammed the one that had 100 CC 3 times to finally move on. And he doesn't even struggle with keeping the right targets selected. Which is a different skill that's always forgotten about by people like you.

It's not a good tutorial at all. The feedback within it is barely passable.

If someone doesn't want to read skill/mechanic descriptions in mmorpgs, then there's barely anything the game can do to help them. If someone refuses to read clear instructions the game provides or isn't interested in testing their skills because they just want to rush forward no matter what (which is apparently what your friend did, according to what you've just wrote), it's their choice and nothing more. It doesn't make the feedback "weak" or the instructions "non-existant".

Quote

And afterwards, especially in open world play, you just never get any feedback again at all. When I use CC on a boss. I know I deal CC but I really don't see it. The bar goes down whether I do anything or not. I can't tell whether it was slightly faster because of me. I know it does. But I can't see that at all. There's tons of mechanics like that in GW2. 

What "feedback" do you need there exactly? You have literal "trianing grounds" on the first map where the game just guides you by hand, you have a mech with a defiant bar available pretty much 24/7, npc called "instructor" explaining what it is, how to get rid of it and what it does, all the time in the world you want to have there at any point of your playthrough with the waypoint/taxi nearby. Absolutely nothing stops you with spending some time there and trying out different skills to actually get to know the build/character you're playing. But if someone just want to rush forward, apparently without knowing what his slotted skills do, then how is this the game's fault? All your friend needs to do is use different skills on the golem or even just read their descriptions as the instructor tells you what effects affect the break bar.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

27 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If someone doesn't want to read skill/mechanic descriptions in mmorpgs, then there's barely anything the game can do to help them. If someone refuses to read clear instructions the game provides or isn't interested in testing their skills because they just want to rush forward no matter what (which is apparently what your friend did, according to what you've just wrote), it's their choice and nothing more. It doesn't make the feedback "weak" or the instructions "non-existant".

First of all. Defiance wasn't even described anywhere prior to this expansion. It's not like it's new, but you won't read about what skills cause defiance damage or what a defiance bar is outside of this one story instance. 

Instructions exist (now). But that's what I'm saying. It's annoyingly placed (in the story) and just telling the player the mechanic exists. Not more. 

That's 2000s game design. Even FromSoft games carefully layer feedback, making sure that everything relevant is communicated through multiple methods every time it happens. They may be difficult but your challenge ain't understanding what's happening. 

27 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What "feedback" do you need there exactly?

I mean design that properly communicates the current state of the game. Player feedback is a game design term. It is not enough to tell players about the existence of a mechanic. To be understood and to give players an opportunity to improve you need to make sure you provide enough feedback for them to understand what is happening.

This can mean lots of things. Like health bars in modern games. They don't simply go down. The red area immediately goes down but leaves a yellow area behind which slowly moves towards the red area. Displaying how much health you or the enemy just lost. This allows you to more easily get an intuitive feeling for the situation and helps you play appropriately. 

Having solid audio queues can be feedback. Making sure that you layer volumes appropriately in order of importance. Things immediately relevant to the player, secondary mechanics relevant to the player, other peoples mechanics, ambience / background audio. (E.g. not chronos blasting out your ears with every second skill they cast)

It can be a screen shake when a boss phase changes to allow you to react more quickly and reduce the chance of missing that information.

It can mean well defined hitboxes so the damage numbers actually come out where you hit and you don't have to stab air for minutes. It can mean damage numbers that show you how much damage you apply to which enemy easily and help you gauge your DPS (aka not what you get in GW2 with condi builds. You can barely read a single number there)

Feedback just means clarity. Design that supports the player in understanding what is going on. So players can focus on the challenge rather than having to spend a lot of their time and mental capacity on understanding their situation. 

A good rule of thumb is that every important mechanic should be communicated in 2 - 4 different ways. E.g. through animation, UI and audio. The more important, the more prominent it should be and the harder it should be to overlook.

And teaching ideally happens one mechanic at a time. You can't mention 10 mechanics, have them done in a completely different context and then throw a real challenge at the player using all of them at once. Learning works best when it slowly escalates alongside player skill.

GW2 is and has always been terrible communicating game mechanics and slowly escalating. Content is either very easy overcome, skipping lots of mechanics, or it requires full knowledge. The in between barely exists resulting in a very punishing experience to people who aren't deeply familiar with MMOs for decades. It doesn't slowly escalate in difficulty teaching mechanics one by one. 

Without good feedback, telling people to git gud is more like telling them to become mindreaders. It's absurd and insulting at the same time. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

 and how much CC your abilities do in the tooltip.

Was that added with the expansion? I haven't looked at my skill tooltips this week, since I'm playing familliar builds. I always thought it was lame that in order to find out what each cc does in breakbar damage, you had to consult a wiki chart.

One thing that the tutorial does not teach you and is not at all clear in the game is that there is a variety of effects that breakbars have. Some recharge really fast, some slow. Some are permanent until broken, some are available for narrow windows of time. Some lead to a long broken bar state, some lead to very short broken bar states, sometimes the bar never comes back. Some interrupt, some stun, some knockdown, some apply exposed.

Some enemies have significant defiance bars that far outshadow their damage, and you can work really hard to break the defiance bar, only to realize you'd have been far better off just damaging the enemy.

"Break the golem's defiance bar" in the Seitung training area does little to teach. Mostly it's just an awareness raiser. "Hey, player, there are these blue bars in the game".

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

First of all. Defiance wasn't even described anywhere prior to this expansion. It's not like it's new, but you won't read about what skills cause defiance damage or what a defiance bar is outside of this one story instance. 

I know and I wrote about it on this forum in past too, not sure which part of my post pointed at me not knowing about it, but that's not the case. And it's not really in the story "instance", it gets introduced to you through the story in the open world and the same npcs explaining mechanics next to the corresponding arenas where you can practice those mechanics remain in the same place in the open world in eod.

I even wrote this 2 posts above (but it wasn't in a response to your post, so understandable you might have skipped it): "I agree that tutorial should have been a thing in core (and starting Hot/PoF zones, just like it is in EoD), but at this point that ship has sailed, so right now all I can say here is... better late then never 😉 "

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Instructions exist (now). But that's what I'm saying. It's annoyingly placed (in the story) and just telling the player the mechanic exists. Not more. 

No, it's in the open world, the story just guides someone by hand. If they don't play the story, but still play through the first map, there's a "Training grounds" area visible on the map. Not a PoI that needs to be hovered over to see, it's a constantly marked/named area on the map. It also does more than "just telling the player the mechanic exists". It tells them how to get rid of it, what are some of the possible positive effects of doing so and provides a golem that can be practices on at any time the player wants. That's what I said and that's what it is. It's not an instance, it's not somehow "annoyingly placed"(?) and it does more than "just tell people the mechanics exists". You're free to dislike how it's done, but lets stay factual.

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I mean design that properly communicates the current state of the game. Player feedback is a game design term. It is not enough to tell players about the existence of a mechanic. To be understood and to give players an opportunity to improve you need to make sure you provide enough feedback for them to understand what is happening.

As already explained above, the training grounds does more than "just let people know the mechanic exists" and then it also provides the golem to easly and freely try out the mechanic however many times they want at any time they want.

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Having solid audio queues can be feedback. Making sure that you layer volumes appropriately in order of importance. Things immediately relevant to the player, secondary mechanics relevant to the player, other peoples mechanics, ambience / background audio. (E.g. not chronos blasting out your ears with every second skill they cast)

It can be a screen shake when a boss phase changes to allow you to react more quickly and reduce the chance of missing that information.

Skills already have their own audio, I'm not sure layering more is a good idea as something that's supposed to be a good, clearly understandable feedback. The feedback here is: you use a skill, the bar goes down. The point here isn't for the players to randomly press the keys and wonder why the sound played, the point is to explain what that blue bar is, what it does, how the get rid of it and why they should get rid of it. That's exactly what the EoD "breakbar trainer" does while also providing the golem to test out the skills. (don't the cc skills blink now too when the BB is active?)

Same for the shake, it's just adding more clutter to the game without actually explaining the mechanic, leaving people question why their screen is suddenly shaking or why does their skill sometimes does "boop" sound and sometimes doesn't. I'm pretty sure explaining the mechanic while letting the players try it out in practice without any time limit is vastly better and clearer way of teaching the mechanics then random sounds or shakes.

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Without good feedback, telling people to git gud is more like telling them to become mindreaders. It's absurd and insulting at the same time. 

Never said anything like "git gud" and sorry, but reading what the npc specifically explains while having ability to try it out in practice on an immobile golem right next to that npc explaining the mechanic isn't even close to needing to become a mindreader. I really don't see how that's somehow unclear. 

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4 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

"Break the golem's defiance bar" in the Seitung training area does little to teach. Mostly it's just an awareness raiser. "Hey, player, there are these blue bars in the game".

It explains what it is, how to get rid of it and what are some of the possible positive effects of getting rid of it. Am I having a different version of the game than the two players I'm currently responding to? Or was I just the only one bothering reading through what that npc says before judging it on the forum? That's an actual question, I'm confused why you two are saying "it just lets people know the blue bars are in the game" when it clearly does more than that.

I think it's worth mentioning (because there was an attempt in the post above to tell me "I'm only looking at it from my perspective and not the perspective of new player", which is false) that I didn't have a need to read through it, since I already knew what it is, what it does and how/why we should get rid of breabars. But I still did read through it right when I got there, because I was curious how they handled the mechanic explanation. And I think they handled it well enough.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758