Staff and Scepter not getting buffed condition damage to compensate for the loss of clones on Virtuoso is such a BIG oversight and flaw

[psi.9304]

2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Well i hope he's getting paid a LOT to have arguments like "it's hard for the devs to find releveant feedback" when there's literally 2 pinned threads dedicated just to that...

I know right?! There pages of feedback but all they care about is looking at reddit memes instead ...

[Daishi.6027]

LMAO, there are soo many facets to why this is absolutely hilarious, too bad they are lost on most of you...

[Sodeni.6041]

12 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

How would they even do this? This isn't constructive in any way because you aren't telling them how they could effectively do this. Changing a core weapon specifically on an elite spec would get messy and confusing later down the road balance wise I imagine. If they buff staff in general then mirage becomes an issue again. There's no clean solution to this. The best option was probably tying condi virt to the blades effect like they did so that they could also just use dagger. Condi vert isn't even too terrible either. Sure it's not outstanding nor is it as good as power but it's not completely awful. If you want to use staff mes there's always mirage, but outside of that I can't really think of any way to make staff better for virt without making mirage op again.

 

10 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

"Do this for me but I won't pitch ideas and then I'll complain when I don't like the outcome" 

Wow, sound logic. 

This forum complains that the devs don't listen to them and then gives useless feedback with no constrictive criticism and then wonders why nothing happens. Why commit time into trying to find a solution that you probably won't be happy with anyways? It's a waste. 

At the end of the day this likely will not get changed. They've already done their best to make condi virt work and frankly it's a success. It's just a matter of tuning at this point. Staff won't get buffed because:

- It'd be messy to buff a weapon for one elite spec balance wise

- General buffs would make the afk staff mirage DPS build that provides perma alac and 25 might again with very high DPS

- The spec wasn't designed to be used with clone based condi weapons simply by how it was designed.

That's all there is to it. It's unfortunate because I do actually love staves, but I'm not one to beg for an unrealistic change with no clear solution especially when I have no ideas myself. Some things just simply do not have solutions and this is likely one of them simply by how different virt is vs all other mes specs. I think it's fantastic that they even gave virt a workable condi build if I'm honest.

Our job as a community is to point out design flaws and give feedback based on gameplay. The devs adjust based on that. They could just buff staff and scepter damage on virtuoso or make a trait do that. Easy. Done.

There is no way talking around this obvious design flaw that restricts build variety by a lot. They HAVE to address this issue at some point.

[Hallow.7368]

1 minute ago, Sodeni.6041 said:

 

Our job as a community is to point out design flaws and give feedback based on gameplay. The devs adjust based on that. They could just buff staff and scepter damage on virtuoso or make a trait do that. Easy. Done.

There is no way talking around this obvious design flaw that restricts build variety by a lot. They HAVE to address this issue at some point.

It's a very real possibility that they might just want us to use dagger and not scepter or staff. I'm not saying that it's a good idea, but it's a real possibility since virt is mainly meant to be a power spec and condi is more of an off build for diversity to begin with.

[Sodeni.6041]

6 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Um buddy? You might wanna double check because I definitely did not quote you twice. I also did not say that positive feedback wasn't there. My ENTIRE argument is that worthless posts such as "I won't buy EoD because of virt" "buff staff" and "how is virt an elite spec" is not productive and helps no one. It clutters the sub and doesn't tell anyone anything except that your fee fees are hurt because you can't do exactly what you want to. Every positive thread I click on this forum has some dude throwing a kitten fit that virt wasn't tailor made for them or someone calling the class utter underpowered garbage when it really isn't. I remember day 1 of EoD someone posted the traits they're using and immediately it had some dude talking about how garbage it is and how you're wasting your time playing it over illusions chrono and I'm sick of it.

Also thank you for informing me of the block feature I no longer have to see a certain someone typing clap emotes and trying to tell me about what is or is not their job! 🙂

Literally nobody said "I won't buy EoD because of virt" in this thread. We simply pointed out an obvious design flaw and problem that has to be addressed. How the devs do that is not our problem, we can only give suggestions like simply buffing damage numbers. You say we don't give good feedback when we actually do that.

We literally spend our free time going on an online forum to talk about a problem we see in a video game. What more could you want?

Edited March 9, 2022 by Sodeni.6041

[Sodeni.6041]

5 minutes ago, Hallow.7368 said:

It's a very real possibility that they might just want us to use dagger and not scepter or staff. I'm not saying that it's a good idea, but it's a real possibility since virt is mainly meant to be a power spec and condi is more of an off build for diversity to begin with.

It could be their decision but at least we give feedback so they could reconsider it. It's not fun having to spend all time on dagger when you want to play condi virtuoso.

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Virtuoso Bug Thread - Page 2 - Mesmer - Guild Wars 2 Forums

 

Arg what a mess this post is, hallow is derailing his good points with fluff.

Virtuoso is fine, it has its place in the meta. We don't need to buff core skills or anything.

Fix the bugs that Veprovina linked to and the class will be great, it can already pull more golum numbers than any other Mesmer it just needs some tweaking and bug fixing.

[Hallow.7368]

9 hours ago, psi.9304 said:

I'm about to do it too, reading this guys post and him just not getting it, he is sooo getting paid to defend anet and there terrible balance team. xD

 

Yea man for sure not agreeing with majority of toxic players and being annoyed by the constant spam of people whining about virtuoso = being a shill heard it here first. This forum is one of the most close minded group of people I have ever seen. PLEASE block me.

[Hallow.7368]

5 hours ago, Sodeni.6041 said:

It could be their decision but at least we give feedback so they could reconsider it. It's not fun having to spend all time on dagger when you want to play condi virtuoso.

Condi dagger virt is fun though is it not? If I want to use my staff I can just go play mirage

[Hallow.7368]

5 hours ago, Sodeni.6041 said:

Literally nobody said "I won't buy EoD because of virt" in this thread. We simply pointed out an obvious design flaw and problem that has to be addressed. How the devs do that is not our problem, we can only give suggestions like simply buffing damage numbers. You say we don't give good feedback when we actually do that.

We literally spend our free time going on an online forum to talk about a problem we see in a video game. What more could you want?

? In case it wasn't obvious.. I was quoting the names of other forums threads in this sub that are all just useless white noise that no one needs to see.

"virt isn't what i wanted it to be so im going going to boycott EoD!!! >:(!!" If you're going to not do something then just don't do it why does everyone here need to know? It's like they know it will have no impact because tons of other people already bought EoD and are enjoying themselves whether that be due to the new specs or the new content so they just wanna be extra vocal about it as if anet would care that one dude on the forums said they won't buy EoD.

[Mell.4873]

47 minutes ago, Hallow.7368 said:

? In case it wasn't obvious.. I was quoting the names of other forums threads in this sub that are all just useless white noise that no one needs to see.

"virt isn't what i wanted it to be so im going going to boycott EoD!!! >:(!!" If you're going to not do something then just don't do it why does everyone here need to know? It's like they know it will have no impact because tons of other people already bought EoD and are enjoying themselves whether that be due to the new specs or the new content so they just wanna be extra vocal about it as if anet would care that one dude on the forums said they won't buy EoD.

Love it, You nailed it.

All this hate towards a class people are not even playing is so silly.

[mortrialus.3062]

15 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

This could possibly be doable in the same way that that pet attributes are nerfed on druid on the first trait that unlocks profession mechanics.

Or the way they already changed sword 3 on virtuoso.  There's no special fanfare or traits or nothing.  Sword 3 just does something different if you have Virtuoso equipped.  Just do that with staff and scepter.  Either double to the duration or up the stacks to 2 per hit.  Easy fix. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[mortrialus.3062]

1 hour ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Condi dagger virt is fun though is it not? If I want to use my staff I can just go play mirage

Even if condi dagger was absolutely godly, it would not be particularly fun as because there's no proper build craft for it.  The way Virtuoso is now, only dagger is viable for condi leaving 66% of potential weapons nerfed.  There's no proper build craft.  You have exactly one weapon option and will always go the bottom row on virt if you're running condi because the other options literally do not work.

[Hallow.7368]

49 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Even if condi dagger was absolutely godly, it would not be particularly fun as because there's no proper build craft for it.  The way Virtuoso is now, only dagger is viable for condi leaving 66% of potential weapons nerfed.  There's no proper build craft.  You have exactly one weapon option and will always go the bottom row on virt if you're running condi because the other options literally do not work.

Probably because condi virt IS the build deviation since the main focus of the class is power? Once again I'm going to reiterate that while it would be interesting I don't think it will happen nor am I upset over that. I don't care if it's "godly" or not dagger is unique and fun. Virt is built around the concept of blades (the modifier on abilities) so having a staff build compete with dagger or even beat it out would be counterintuitive. A staff virtuoso would essentially just be a watered down version of staff mirage which is already a watered down version of normal condi mirage. Even if they buff the weapons for virt staff STILL will not interact with your traits that apply an effect when you hit with a blade such as jagged mind and deadly blades and your bleed application will be a lot less since staff mostly applies torment and confusion meaning you don't get nearly as much value out of bloodsong for blade generation and damage increase. That's not because of a "design failure" or "half baked spec" either. It was entirely intentional that they wanted the spec's predominant builds to be based around the blade modifier because it is THE blade spec. Mirage is ready and waiting if you want that playstyle, but I just can't picture a future where they buff staff for virtuoso specifically. 

[Hallow.7368]

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Or the way they already changed sword 3 on virtuoso.  There's no special fanfare or traits or nothing.  Sword 3 just does something different if you have Virtuoso equipped.  Just do that with staff and scepter.  Either double to the duration or up the stacks to 2 per hit.  Easy fix. 

Actually your player just replaces the clone for the leap. That can't really be translated over to not having clones to auto for condis.

[Zenith.7301]

The oversight is trying to force Virtuoso to function as a condi spec when mirage is a perfectly good condi spec and Virtuoso should be the dedicated power spec while chrono the support.

[Salt Mode.3780]

I don't understand why this is even a discussion, Virtuoso's access to condi is the same as core chrono and mirage only difference is there is no clones to pump out extra stacks of condi.

I don't see in a raid setting where condi virtuoso is going to be a thing because at the end of the day most of your dps is going to be coming from power damage from using hybrid damage sets.

If people are trying to say bleed is good then yikes that condi has never been good from the start.

[Shiyo.3578]

Virt shouldn't be able to play condi, we have mirage for that.

[mortrialus.3062]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I don't understand why this is even a discussion, Virtuoso's access to condi is the same as core chrono and mirage only difference is there is no clones to pump out extra stacks of condi.

I don't see in a raid setting where condi virtuoso is going to be a thing because at the end of the day most of your dps is going to be coming from power damage from using hybrid damage sets.

If people are trying to say bleed is good then yikes that condi has never been good from the start.

Condi's make up 50% of your auto attack damage on staff and scepter.  I've tested this extensively.  3 clones literally doubles the damage of your auto attack compared to having 0 clones.  This is especially important for staff as the auto attack is literally the only real damage output on the weapon.  The weapons were designed and balanced around having these clones up most of the time.

I'm the first person to point out and make a stink about this after the first virtuoso demo. This isn't about raids. This is actually more about PvP, and also just having weapons actually functioning properly. 

PvP has seen various points of time where Condi Chrono and Power Mirage were both popular picks in PvE, PvP and WvW.   This isn't because there were traits to brute force one weapon into being an effective choice for that spec. 

It was because they were specs with plenty of good, powerful trait choices that worked well for both condi and power, and Anet didn't deliberately render a number of core weapons unfunctional when using said builds.  

[mortrialus.3062]

30 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Virt shouldn't be able to play condi, we have mirage for that.

Power Mirage has seen plenty of use in PvP and WvW.  Condi Chrono has seen various historical uses in PvP as well as uses in PvE. 

This isn't because there were traits to brute force one weapon into being an effective choice for that spec. 

It was because they were specs with plenty of good, powerful trait choices that worked well for both condi and power, and Anet didn't deliberately render a number of core weapons unfunctional when using said specs. 

I don't think Virtuoso should be focused around  conditions, let alone having an entire row of traits just about getting dagger working as a condition weapon.  If condi virtuoso is going to be a thing, it should be like Power Mirage where core equipment actually functions on the spec and players take it from there. There's really no good reason to nerf the auto attack output on staff and scepter by 50%.

Imagine if Daredevil or Specter nerfed dagger and sword auto attacks by 50% when you equipped the spec.  Players would freaking riot.

Edited March 10, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[mortrialus.3062]

4 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Probably because condi virt IS the build deviation since the main focus of the class is power? Once again I'm going to reiterate that while it would be interesting I don't think it will happen nor am I upset over that. I don't care if it's "godly" or not dagger is unique and fun. Virt is built around the concept of blades (the modifier on abilities) so having a staff build compete with dagger or even beat it out would be counterintuitive. A staff virtuoso would essentially just be a watered down version of staff mirage which is already a watered down version of normal condi mirage. Even if they buff the weapons for virt staff STILL will not interact with your traits that apply an effect when you hit with a blade such as jagged mind and deadly blades and your bleed application will be a lot less since staff mostly applies torment and confusion meaning you don't get nearly as much value out of bloodsong for blade generation and damage increase. That's not because of a "design failure" or "half baked spec" either. It was entirely intentional that they wanted the spec's predominant builds to be based around the blade modifier because it is THE blade spec. Mirage is ready and waiting if you want that playstyle, but I just can't picture a future where they buff staff for virtuoso specifically. 

Power Mirage has seen plenty of use in PvP and WvW.  Condi Chrono has seen uses in PvP as well as uses in PvE. 

This isn't because there were traits to brute force one weapon into being an effective choice for that spec. 

It was because they were specs with plenty of good, powerful trait choices that worked well for both condi and power, and Anet didn't deliberately render a number of core weapons unfunctional when using said specs. 

I don't think Virtuoso should be focused around  conditions, let alone having an entire row of traits just about getting dagger working as a condition weapon.  If condi virtuoso is going to be a thing, it should be like Power Mirage where core equipment actually functions on the spec and players take it from there.

Imagine if Daredevil or Specter nerfed dagger and sword auto attacks by 50% when you equipped the spec.  Players would freaking riot. There's no good reason to be effectively nerfing core weapons on elite specs.

Edited March 10, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Salt Mode.3780]

There is a very simple answer in front of us that they were being extremely lazy with Virtuoso when it comes with core weapon interactions and that is Mirage.

The fact that mirage cloak had to be intergraded to EVERY SINGLE CORE WEAPON for ambush is a big enough example.

Chrono was extremely similar to Core only difference was it had CS.

As far as virtuoso goes, because it is a no clone spec, it is more the reason why they should've thought about this to begin with.

[mortrialus.3062]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

There is a very simple answer in front of us that they were being extremely lazy with Virtuoso when it comes with core weapon interactions and that is Mirage.

The fact that mirage cloak had to be intergraded to EVERY SINGLE CORE WEAPON for ambush is a big enough example.

Chrono was extremely similar to Core only difference was it had CS.

As far as virtuoso goes, because it is a no clone spec, it is more the reason why they should've thought about this to begin with.

That still isn't a good excuse to break core weapons.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, mortrialus.3062 said:

That still isn't a good excuse to break core weapons.

I never said break, did they break core weapons for mirage? Simply adding on a effect for Virtuoso is like adding ambush for Mirage.

[mortrialus.3062]

5 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I never said break, did they break core weapons for mirage? Simply adding on a effect for Virtuoso is like adding ambush for Mirage.

It really isn't.  They quietly adjusted sword 3 on virtuoso to account for the fact that unless they changed it, it would break the skill entirely.  They should do the same for staff and scepter's auto attacks.  You could double the duration.  You could double the stacks per hit. Either way would work and would be a very simple fix.