Why is boonshare balanced on a per-class basis?

[Shiyo.3578]

You have classes like MECH and Firebrand that barely need any boon duration and can give out 30+ seconds of alac/quickness very easily, nearly for free, if specced into it. No convoluted or annoying rotation required.

Then you have specs like willbender that need to play in a VERY specific way, have 100% boon duration, and STILL can barely keep up alacrity. Catalyst has issues if there's a lot of movement, and Mirage alacrity got nerfed in duration because it was 10 man, but wasn't compensated after making all boons 5 man. 

Why did you nerf willbender and catalyst uptime on boons? Why are some classes a pain in the butt to keep up boons with, while others a joke?

Pick one: 100% uptime on support boons, or 0%. Stop this inbetween and pick and choosing who can do 100% and who can't, and who can effortlessly do it and who has to work hard and gear fully for it to obtain 100% uptime on boons.

Giving out boons as a support shouldn't be such a pain for certain specs.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm pretty sure it is balanced around the damage they do while fulfilling the boon role.  The higher the damage the more boon duration is needed.  Roughly, anyway.  Anet isn't the best at balancing, since they have different people handle different professions. 

[Shiyo.3578]

24 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm pretty sure it is balanced around the damage they do while fulfilling the boon role.  The higher the damage the more boon duration is needed.  Roughly, anyway.  Anet isn't the best at balancing, since they have different people handle different professions. 

That's terrible design.

[anbujackson.9564]

21 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

That's terrible design.

Actually no. Thats the only way it should be. The higher the utility you provide, the deeper you should have to invest in concentration if we are taking boons as an example.

The concept of needing no boon duration got completely out of hand with PoF and onward. Nowadays people think its normal apparently that you should do oppressive boons like alac or quickness with next to no investment and dealing 30k dps. THATS terrible design and powercreep. 

Well too bad they removed internal stacks of boons and instead went for a max duration of 30 seconds which is way too long for strong boons. Now you can just spam low duration which stacks up constantly, so who cares about boon duration? They should have limited the internal stacks even more instead of removing them. That way you actually have to think somewhat how you use your skills instead of mashing them off cooldown with no brain requirememt. You would need high duration stacks (aka more boon duration) to still have the highest possible uptime while managing your cooldowns.

Thats balanced support with no powercreep in my eyes. Not this shitshow we have now.

[Shiyo.3578]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

The concept of needing no boon duration got completely out of hand with PoF and onward. Nowadays people think its normal apparently that you should do oppressive boons like alac or quickness with next to no investment and dealing 30k dps. THATS terrible design and powercreep. 

Ok so you play the 2-3 classes that can do that and never play the others. 

That's my entire point. They can't decide if they WANT easy 100% uptime on boons, or making it insanely hard to keep up boons. It's on a per-class basis that they decide this and the classes with easy effortless 100% uptime on important boons are the only classes people play support on - and that's exactly the smart choice.

[SeTect.5918]

6 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

and the classes with easy effortless 100% uptime on important boons are the only classes people play support on - and that's exactly the smart choice.

Nope. Herald has 100% uptime on most of its Important boons without any boon duration and still almost none is using it. 

Why? Because it has no top tier boon (and bc it deals poor dps in full zerker)

The problem isnt the easy access to boons. The problem is the easy access to top tier boons.

No top tier boon = no viable support. 

[Shiyo.3578]

16 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Nope. Herald has 100% uptime on most of its Important boons without any boon duration and still almost none is using it. 

Why? Because it has no top tier boon (and bc it deals poor dps in full zerker)

The problem isnt the easy access to boons. The problem is the easy access to top tier boons.

No top tier boon = no viable support. 

Herald doesn't give quickness or alacrity, that isn't a boon share build at all. When people refer to boonshare, they mean the important boons(alac or quickness).

[SeTect.5918]

9 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Herald doesn't give quickness or alacrity, that isn't a boon share build at all. When people refer to boonshare, they mean the important boons(alac or quickness).

The fact that boon-herald exists makes it a boon share build. 

There are also boon supports without alac and quick. In lfgs People also write "quick" or "alac" and not "boon" because they dont want for example a boon herald to join. Because builds like that aren't viable anymore. Especially not after all boons became 5 target Instead of 10. However these builds still exist and are boon supports. 

Tbh thats the first time i hear that you are no boon support at all if u dont bring alac or quickness. They are, they are just not viable. 

[Dadnir.5038]

I will agree with the OP on the need to "standardize" the need for boon duration.

Also I believe that other boons are as valuable as quickness and alacrity. Without might you hit like a wet noodle, without fury you often don't crit reliably, without vigor dodge specs lose quite a bit of efficiency, without regen/prot/resistance/resolution/stability/aegis your party lose survivability.

The less popular boons are "less popular" because they are easily accessible. This year, the devs are spreading access to quickness and alacrity which should be lead to a relative loss of popularity, bringing these boons down to the same level as the other boons. The drawback is that the profession that will bring the most at the least cost will end up overshadowing all other professions and people will complain about this profession.

 

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

The fact that boon-herald exists makes it a boon share build. 

Boon herald doesn't exist. The only useful thing it can maintain is fury, and others do it better, while providing more. Giving people ten stacks of might is not a role.

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Boon herald doesn't exist. The only useful thing it can maintain is fury, and others do it better, while providing more. Giving people ten stacks of might is not a role.

Well it exists, for teapot for example who said it would be sooo good. -> which is not my opinion. Its not even close to good.

Tho it also gives protection which is useful.

tho for some people it exists, I never played boon herald and will never because of viability reasons. I would be welcome nowhere.
I dont think its good, I even think its very bad. It was even before feb 28. But it even got nerfed there (all boons to 5 target (tho I think all were anyway) and legend swap doesnt trigger weapon swap sigils anymore and battle scar nerf). Its a dead e spec atm but it exists for some people as boon support, there was even a thief support build (before specter).

That these builds arent viable choices is obvious, but they exist and they count as boon-share builds even if they cant give alac or quickness.

[The Boz.2038]

There is tons of good boon share builds that don't give alac or quickness.
Herald ain't it.

Just like there is tons of good healers, but a shout warrior still ain't one of them at all.

 

[patrona.8427]

Boon uptime should be correlated with the amount of raw DPS you can pump out, so that the total utility (which includes DPS) is constant across the board.

 

In essence you have two types of boons: damage mitigation and DPS increase. It can't be that hard to invent some type of equation which calculates a raw DPS penalty based on the type of boons and their uptime. The big issue is that a certain profession can do 40k DPS + perma alac, while others can only do 40k DPS with no significant utility other than DPS (yes DPS is utility). Boon duration itself is not the issue. Poor standardization of utility over professions and specs is.

Edited March 10, 2022 by patrona.8427

[Jski.6180]

I think a class dps has nothing to do with its boon balancing or you would see classes that give out the stronger boons would do a lot less dps then say classes whom only give out the stander boons.

So a lot of ppl point of views are more or less trying to make it have a logic even if there not one there.

[anbujackson.9564]

10 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Boon herald doesn't exist. The only useful thing it can maintain is fury, and others do it better, while providing more. Giving people ten stacks of might is not a role.

It did exist as 10men supporter. Nerfing this spec to 5men was like the worst part in the patch next to (yet another) SoI nerf. 

 

[Obtena.7952]

On 3/9/2022 at 6:48 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

Ok so you play the 2-3 classes that can do that and never play the others. 

Not a problem if that's how you decide to play. That depends on choices YOU make. 

Quote

That's my entire point. They can't decide if they WANT easy 100% uptime on boons, or making it insanely hard to keep up boons. It's on a per-class basis that they decide this and the classes with easy effortless 100% uptime on important boons are the only classes people play support on - and that's exactly the smart choice.

That's not entirely true. Do you ACTAULLY know these are the only classes people play? You don't. 

Put another way ... standardizing boon uptime does not make all classes equally desirable, REGARDLESS of the standard they choose for boon uptimes. What people play is a WAY more complex question than just 'who has 100% boon uptime'. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Desh.7028]

On 3/9/2022 at 10:16 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

nearly for free

 

Since dps FB and qFB are really easy to compare specs I'll use those benchmarks as examples. Applying quickness to 5 people costs a whopping 6000 dps. That is not "nearly free" by any stretch.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Desh.7028

[Shiyo.3578]

22 minutes ago, Desh.7028 said:

 

Since dps FB and qFB are really easy to compare specs I'll use those benchmarks as examples. Applying quickness to 5 people costs a whopping 6000 dps. That is not "nearly free" by any stretch.

Free refers to very easily without much effort.

Compare willbenders alac share to renegade pressing a single button, for example.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[Desh.7028]

9 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Free refers to very easily without much effort.

 

 

Seriously?

 

And sure Willbender as alacrity giver was gutted, which is an issue with Willbender and not Renegade, but let's not redefine words such as "free" here.