EoD - Story Review that became a rant xD *spoilers*

[TeeracK.3601]

First let me say I enjoyed the game and liked it overall, and they did a great job with all the Cantha stuff. I loved how they were able to honor that really old Zaithan lore with all the risen and ruined city.  I loved how they used it as a clever way to back out of the hole that the Ministry of Purity caused storyline without ignoring it. I was expecting them to be similar to Joko's role in Pof but I'm glad they just had the whole civil war play out before we got there. That all being said... I think they failed really hard with the elder dragon lore.

 

My favorite part of the story was early on meeting Mai and seeing how she'd changed.  Really great character and it made her death extra sad to me, but that being said. She was killed by Ankka who i think is a pretty stupid part of the story. It felt like the sort of plot character you'd get from wow where she comes out of no where and is just this big super smart big baddie. Her motivations were pretty stupid and nonsense in the end, and I just didn't like how she was introduced out of no where and shoots aurene with a dues ex machina gun, and then we later use that same gun that she herself didn't think would work to stop the dragon void in the end. It give me the same sense of the way we kill zaithan with a random set of guns we built or how we kill mordramoth with a sudden out of no where "hey just go into the dream and kill them, duh!"  Also the fact scarlet did technically save the day at the reactor is cool cause it finally gives meaning to that old cryptic quotes of "you'll see tyria needs me" or w/e it was from the spinal back piece recipe. They could have easily made Ankka Blish who was found by the aetherblades in the mist or even Zojja who's mind was lost in the mist or something all this time and is now crazy and a bad guy but instead it was just a random asura.

 

The entire idea of the dragon void was so boring and generic and uninteresting or exciting to me, and in the end what it really did was complete rob us of our chance at getting a sea dragon conflict. They took the entire IBS team for the most part to work on EoD, and yet some how we got literally ZERO new dragon minions. There are  no sea dragon minions. The sea dragon has had all this speculation for a decade and when we meet her she is a generic asian looking dragon that doesnt feel like she has anything to do with water. when she escapes even and her magic pulses out she turns everything into risen not sea dragon minions. There was no new lore for naga just relocated to a few random side events. The population of cantha is all human and tengu for the most part so they only had to do a human and tengu corrupted minion, but even that they skipped.

 

I was sure that when she escaped that she was going to start to transform and get all monstrous like we saw in concept art years ago. 
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/a/ab/Dragon_16_concept_art.jpg
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/8/87/"Tsunami"_concept_art.jpg
but instead she becomes "tHe DrAgOnVoId!" where Soo Won and all of her "minions" are just other dragon minions but now they look like a player with too many infusions on their armor...

 

The final fight where you fight the SEA dragon is up in the sky. I asked 6 people while i was playing what element that dragon was when I was fighting her in DE and i got "sky, storm, wind" as the answers because there is nothing about this fight that feels like she is the water dragon. She does some bubbles and a tidal wave but literally every boss in this game does some kind of wave attack. How is it that when we fight Teq a champion of the death dragon it feels WAY more like he is the sea dragon. Minions coming from the sea, attacks that pull you down into dark water beneath the floor, tidal waves from the ocean, literally coming up out of the water. We are in the middle of the jade sea when we fight her but she never does anything with the jade. Did they forget that they made the Drakkar fight? Another dragon that feels more like a sea dragon as it literally is able to swim through solid ice... why not have Soo Won do that in the jade sea? It just feels like they cut the idea of the sea dragon from the expansion for me and went right to a void dragon, and then when you think about it later the risen being all over the coast which i thought was so cool at first I realized it was a clever way for them to not use the coast at all. Why not have minions like naga and crabs stuff that come up out of the water if they wanna avoid the underwater stuff, but they literally just didnt do any sea dragon minions...

 

There is also a huge plot whole as well with what drove the Largos, Quaggan, and Karka  to the surface? what was the minion the inquest had captured in the crucible of eternity? It looks similar to the leviathans that the Largos are hunting in EoD are they setting up some new alternative leviathan bad guy with these bosses in EoD to explain that? And if thats the case... why in the world are they doing that? its like they went out of their way to shaft Soo Won. 

 

Not only that we never even learn what Soo Won's second mastery is? And it's not like they just forgot in the Soo Won fight itself all of the champions she spawns are just called one thing like "Death and Jungle" they use both schools for them all liked "Death & Shadow and Jungle & Mind" 

 

At the end of the IBS i was really upset. They canceled the final arc of Jormag and they cut pretty much Primodus's entire story just to get us ready to deal with Soo Won, so coming into this I thought to myself "they need to make it worth it." and in the end it made me feel like the story of the elder dragons was more pointless and didn't matter then ever. We deal with the void just so easily and no one seems too alarmed by everything building up to. All those random void outbreaks around the world no one even seems that panicked lol. Just thinking back to all we did in thunderhead and it still wasn't enough for Kralk just gives me too much disconnect for how we won this fight. 

 

Then the epilogue, everyone is retiring and moving on with their life. Taimi who was meant to die from her sickness but didn't for some reason.  Jori who was meant to die by Scarlet's hand, but didn't. Braham who was turned into a dragon minion and in the middle of two elder dragons exploding, but some how lived, logan who was left for dead in orr and got a wound in the Soo Won fight, but managed to live. it made me realize that I was standing in a room full of people who likely were meant to or should have died at some point, but instead all just lived because at no point outside of season 4 did it feel like anet committed to the story of the elder dragons.

 

Going forward I just want the commander to claim ownership of an airship and just have dragon's watch and friends become the name of your pirate crew going on adventures and getting mixed up in random storylines that dont need to spawn over multiple expansions. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by TeeracK.3601

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

2 hours ago, TeeracK.3601 said:

Just thinking back to all we did in thunderhead and it still wasn't enough for Kralk just gives me too much disconnect for how we won this fight.

By having a fully fledged, juiced up elder dragon on our side, plus the pact fleet and local help, and Soo-Won fighting the corruption...? 

 

Quote

when she escapes even and her magic pulses out she turns everything into risen not sea dragon minions. There was no new lore for naga just relocated to a few random side events.

You missed out on both lore and in-game explanations. Both points are wrong.

Edited March 12, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[TeeracK.3601]

2 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

By having a fully fledged, juiced up elder dragon on our side, plus the pact fleet and local help, and Soo-Won fighting the corruption...? 

Oh, sorry thanks for reminding me. I forgot to mention how epic and cool it felt that the epic final conflict a decade in the making has the entire pact fleet fighting an "epic battle" along side aurene done off screen while we are doing the final mission.  Would have been a great place for a cutscene but instead we got dragon's watch going "what are those?!"

[TeeracK.3601]

3 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

You missed out on both lore and in-game explanations. Both points are wrong.

Nope. There is even an achievement for killing all of the risen during the reactor mission when they get converted. You must have missed something, or you're confused about what I'm talking about.

 

This was a review of the game's story. The naga were not part of the main narrative at all, so I'm not wrong at all. That being said even if we look at the naga events in world. They had very minimal and pretty much nonexistant lore. All their events can be summed up to them just being a nuisance race who worship leviathans. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by TeeracK.3601

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

SPOILERS FOR LWS2, PATH OF FIRE AND END OF DRAGONS

Its a shame that people feel so let down by it. I can understand being upset by the lack of minions which is literally the only thing that upset me about this expansion but the rest it was pretty par for the coarse by what has been foreshadowed in the past.  I thought it did a really good job of tying everything together.

 

Btw, we were already told a little about the Dragonvoid in Path of Fire:

 

And the final battle with Soo-Won is something we've already seen in a vision in LWS2:

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:32 PM, TeeracK.3601 said:

Oh, sorry thanks for reminding me. I forgot to mention how epic and cool it felt that the epic final conflict a decade in the making has the entire pact fleet fighting an "epic battle" along side aurene done off screen while we are doing the final mission.  Would have been a great place for a cutscene but instead we got dragon's watch going "what are those?!"

Did you do the Dragon's End meta event before the story mission? There's even an achievement for it.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Kalavier.1097]

12 hours ago, TeeracK.3601 said:

Nope. There is even an achievement for killing all of the risen during the reactor mission when they get converted. You must have missed something, or you're confused about what I'm talking about.

 

This was a review of the game's story. The naga were not part of the main narrative at all, so I'm not wrong at all. That being said even if we look at the naga events in world. They had very minimal and pretty much nonexistant lore. All their events can be summed up to them just being a nuisance race who worship leviathans. 

 

Yes.. the Risen were because of Ankka. They had NOTHING to do with Soo-won. Ankka openly talks about how she's using Zhaitan's magic in that mission, and does it again in Echovald lol.

 

12 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

You didn't do the Dragon's End meta event before the story mission. There's even an achievement for it.

 

Yep. And it's accurately labeled "true ending" The story mission about fighting the dragonvoid takes place right after the meta.

 

edit: Also nobody listed were "meant to die".

Edited March 12, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[TeeracK.3601]

13 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

You didn't do the Dragon's End meta event before the story mission. There's even an achievement for it.

I did do that and get the achievement. Your standards must be super low or something if you think that changes anything I said lol

[TeeracK.3601]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

Yes.. the Risen were because of Ankka. They had NOTHING to do with Soo-won. Ankka openly talks about how she's using Zhaitan's magic in that mission, and does it again in Echovald lol.

 

 

Yep. And it's accurately labeled "true ending" The story mission about fighting the dragonvoid takes place right after the meta.

 

edit: Also nobody listed were "meant to die".

The magic comes out of the dragon jade charged with soo won's magic. And the funny thing is that this doesn't even matter. Say I interpreted this one detail wrong. Does that mean there are actually sea dragon minions all over I missed? Nope. You're so desperate to challenge this one detail it just proves everything else i said true. 🤷‍♂️

 

I did the meta before the final mission. I'm confused what exactly you think that changes.

 

You must be a new player if you dont think any of those characters were meant to die. This is the sorta thing they even discuss some times on stream.

 

To me just sounds like you dont read a lot if you were actually okay with how the story played out for the elder dragons. I bet you think ibs: champions was super epic to. 😛

Edited March 12, 2022 by TeeracK.3601

[TeeracK.3601]

13 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

SPOILERS FOR LWS2, PATH OF FIRE AND END OF DRAGONS

Its a shame that people feel so let down by it. I can understand being upset by the lack of minions which is literally the only thing that upset me about this expansion but the rest it was pretty par for the coarse by what has been foreshadowed in the past.  I thought it did a really good job of tying everything together.

 

Btw, we were already told a little about the Dragonvoid in Path of Fire:

 

And the final battle with Soo-Won is something we've already seen in a vision in LWS2:

 

Saying the final fight with soo won was shown in that image of the all falling out of balance in season 2 is super super thin. The all is just a representation for reality. Inspired by how they mapped the Domain of Torment. 

[Kalavier.1097]

Gonna preface this with. Wow, calm down.

17 hours ago, TeeracK.3601 said:

You must be a new player if you dont think any of those characters were meant to die. This is the sorta thing they even discuss some times on stream.

 

To me just sounds like you dont read a lot if you were actually okay with how the story played out for the elder dragons. I bet you think ibs: champions was super epic to. 😛

 

Yep, so new to the game. I just started playing during the early start weekend back in 2012! Though what does this even mean?

Also personal attacks, man, that just makes you look bad especially when I said nothing about the quality of the story or if I was okay, or not okay with how End of Dragons or Icebrood saga played out. Ironic about the "Not read a lot" line though.

On 3/11/2022 at 6:00 PM, TeeracK.3601 said:

Then the epilogue, everyone is retiring and moving on with their life. Taimi who was meant to die from her sickness but didn't for some reason.  Jori who was meant to die by Scarlet's hand, but didn't. Braham who was turned into a dragon minion and in the middle of two elder dragons exploding, but some how lived, logan who was left for dead in orr and got a wound in the Soo Won fight, but managed to live. it made me realize that I was standing in a room full of people who likely were meant to or should have died at some point, but instead all just lived because at no point outside of season 4 did it feel like anet committed to the story of the elder dragons.

 

Who said Taimi was supposed to die this expansion? who said Jory was meant to die to Scarlet? Braham living actually fits with everything they had explicitly done previously with dragon minions. Logan was not left for dead, he stayed behind to allow the airship to get off the ground. He was wounded in this fight, but he was also previously badly kittened up in heart of thorns.

People may have avoided death, but that doesn't mean Anet "wasn't committed to the story of the elder dragons." What, so to tell the story we had to have a ton of people die?

 

Quote

 The magic comes out of the dragon jade charged with soo won's magic. And the funny thing is that this doesn't even matter. Say I interpreted this one detail wrong. Does that mean there are actually sea dragon minions all over I missed? Nope. You're so desperate to challenge this one detail it just proves everything else i said true. 🤷‍♂️

 

No desperation, just was correcting you about it. And well, you doubled down on "It came from Soo-won", so it's kinda making the rest of your points look... questionable. Because if you won't admit you were wrong about this one easily proven detail, what else are you lying about?

 

Cause well, see point A and B https://imgur.com/a/KBGsJQO

Man, it's so weird they did a typo and called the risen "Ankka's risen abominations." And weirder that they had Ankka directly talk about how she used dragon magic to revive them. Almost as if dragon jade was literally not involved... in any way, shape, or form! Which was pointed out to you and then you promptly doubled down on it.

 

Quote

There is also a huge plot whole as well with what drove the Largos, Quaggan, and Karka  to the surface? what was the minion the inquest had captured in the crucible of eternity? It looks similar to the leviathans that the Largos are hunting in EoD are they setting up some new alternative leviathan bad guy with these bosses in EoD to explain that? And if thats the case... why in the world are they doing that? its like they went out of their way to shaft Soo Won. 

 

The other thing I'd like to point out is we have NEVER seen the "deep sea minion" the inquest captured, so we don't even know if they had one at all, or simply caught a deep sea monster and thought it was.

Also, they literally talk about that too as well, "what drove them out?" and point out the timing is closer to her leaving the deep oceans, vs her waking up.

 

Also the true ending achievement was about the greater battle. Which if you bothered to look around you'd notice Aurene was present at the fight, as well as the airships circling. They also all opened fire when Aurene did to blast apart Soo-won's barrier.

 

edit: I'll just say, I love how your suggestion for an existing character to replace Ankka is literally "Bring back zojja, a popular and wanted character, and just have her evil because lul reasons." or "Bring back blish, another liked character, and have him be evil because lul reasons."

Edited March 13, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[TeeracK.3601]

I'll be honest. I didn't care enough to read your post @Kalavier.1097 >.<'

---

I just saw Wooden Potato's story review. This video is worth a good watch. He does a much better job covering the things I said and it sounds like with the exception of our opinions of Anka and Mai being swapped we shared a lot of the same opinions about this story. 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by TeeracK.3601

[Neo Mortem.3627]

On 3/13/2022 at 7:18 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Who said Taimi was supposed to die this expansion? who said Jory was meant to die to Scarlet? Braham living actually fits with everything they had explicitly done previously with dragon minions. Logan was not left for dead, he stayed behind to allow the airship to get off the ground. He was wounded in this fight, but he was also previously badly kittened up in heart of thorns.

It was suggested or highly possible that Taimi could have died due to her illness. I thought she would. If Taimi died, then at least her line about "not having enough time" and "not everyone making it" would have had a much more emotional impact. For Marjory, she was supposed to die to Scarlet, but ANet scrapped the original ending to keep the lesbian lovers together cause supposedly Marjory was a favorite character or they didn't want to remove the lesbian pairing from the cast (???), which was a mistake since they don't offer anything when they're together: they just have lovey dovey honeymoon cliche dialogue nobody actually says out loud to each other and have no character growth or struggle. Braham should have died, or at least been physically damaged, but because of the "plot armour" the sibling Spirits of the Wild gave him, he was left unscathed physically. 

 

As it stands now, ANet enjoys killing off newer characters they just introduce (Blish and Ankka), or returning characters they don't care to fully flesh out the arcs to get the ending they really deserve, because they don't want to deal with the old stuff (Joko, Jormag, Primordus, Lazarus, Saul, Mai-Trin, Soo-Won).

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Neo Mortem.3627 said:

As it stands now, ANet enjoys killing off newer characters they just introduce (Blish and Ankka), or returning characters they don't care to fully flesh out the arcs to get the ending they really deserve, because they don't want to deal with the old stuff (Joko, Jormag, Primordus, Lazarus, Saul, Mai-Trin, Soo-Won).

Going to have to disagree with pretty much all of these.

To use Joko as an example. Joko was never that important. If you look back on his GW1 lore his only real claim to fame was an odd immortality power, and utterly failing to conquer Elona. He wasn't some great wizard who could destroy cities, he wasn't some brilliant mastermind in war, he wasn't even a particularly good leader in general.

After being imprisoned he was utterly unable to escape on his own, nor were his Awakened able to do it for him. His escape is pure luck resulting of the Abbadon situation. And even in Nightfall he wasn't that important. We didn't need him for his armies, or his power, we just needed him to learn how to ride the wurms(something that could have been done via any number of mcguffins, using Joko was just a lore reference). And even after being freed he still needed the player to do everything for him to rebuild his position since he was utterly unable to do so himself.

Now you look at his takeover of Elona in between the two games and... it only happened because literally no one but a handful of Sunspears actually tried to stop him, because everyone dismissed him. His grand plan was to look at a map, and make a determination a literal child could make(that most of the water coming into Elona comes from one river so block if off and you win) It wasn't some grand military conquest, it wasn't some huge epic war where he was able to take everyone out with superior power/tactics. It was literally just no one really tried to stop him.

But because Joko wasn't particularly smart, or powerful, his empire was a paper tiger.

• Despite trying for ages he had utterly failed to wipe out the Sunspears, or their ideals.
• Despite trying for ages he was unable to remove the Order of Shadows.
• Despite trying for ages he was unable to stop the dissident movement.
• Despite trying for ages he was unable to make Amnoon bow to him.
• Because of his intense narcissism everyone in power around him was nothing more then yes men who couldn't real leading to wipe spread unrest in his land.
• Even the Order of Shadows predicted his empire would fall in as few years that they planned to prop Kossan up as a leader figure once it fell because hes just not good at leading.

And within the content of Path of Fire we pretty much demolish all of his northern operations from the Desert Highlands, down to the Desolation, and into Vabbi. Killing many important people in his hierarchy, replacing others, and inflaming the already agitated people against him(not to mention throwing a good chunk of his army against the Forged and Branded). In the post PoF Griffon achievements we reunite the Sunspears in the north, build them up a base of operations in Vabbi, and help them start recruiting from the locals to rebuild themselves. And LWS6 had some Sunspears down in Istan doing the same, causing full scale revolt in Istan, and making him lose those territories.

By the time we get to the stuff at Gandara Joko's empire is in full scale collapse. Hes effectively lost everything from Vabbi upwards, Istan to the south, and pretty much all of Kourna outside of Gandara and Jahai as well. Even if he has survived the events at Gandara the only place he could have fled to is Jahai, at which point we would have done the exact same thing we just did in Gandara, except now we would be even more surrounded.

Joko's story wasn't not fleshed out(double negative there), and it certainly wasn't so because Anet "doesn't want to deal with the old". Joko's story was the way it was because that's how important he actually was in the narrative from the get go. He wasn't super smart, he wasn't super powerful, he wasn't some great leader(either militarily or in normal governance), he was just an overinflated ego who got as far as he did because people underestimated him a little too much. But that kind of person isn't going to be some grand expansion/full living world season badguy.

 

Lazarus is pretty much the same. The Mursatt became fodder to the players by the end of GW1, then became even more fodder to the Titans, who the players then beat themselves. Making the Mursaat essentially double fodder. And the rest of them died to a rag tag group of Krytans, with some help from a few Asura, during the War in Kryta. Lazarus only managed to escape death because he fled, and hid like a coward. Much like Joko, he wasn't some ultra-mega-super-powerful entity. He was just a Mursaat who lasted because he ran. But by the time of GW2 the heroes of the modern age were SO much stronger then the GW1 heroes, and Kryta had become so much more powerful then it was back in GW1, and had made alliances with all the other major races making them even more powerful. While, on the other hand, Lazarus' potential forces, the White Mantle, had been reduced greatly. They were forced to hide in the jungle for the last 200+ years, and had been largely ineffectual at achieving any real results until Caudecus came along.  But Caudecus is himself an egotist, who wanted it all for himself, and split the Mantle into two over if he or "Lazarus" should be in charge. Making their already weak force weaker. Lazarus and the Mantle, much like Joko, were never in a position in GW2's narrative to be some big expansion/whole LW season, level entity. That Anet did his story the way they did because thats the level of importance he was from game start.

 

I could write the same for Saul(who I dont think anyone expected to be alive at all since GW1 made it clear the Mursaat poofed him off to make him a Martyr for the Mantle to rally behind), Jormag, Primordus, and Mai-Trin. Soo-Won doesn't even make sense in this context given that she had never been a character before EoD to begin with. All we know of the DSD was that it existed.

None of these situations being what they were come from "not wanting to deal with old stuff" its entirely "players made up fantastical stories for aspects of the lore that were never implied to be that fantastical, and are now dissapointed that the writers wrote the stories on the level of which they were originally implied to be, instead of what players made up in their heads"

Edited March 21, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kalavier.1097]

I'd have to disagree about Joko being a paper tiger. Before he tried to conquer Elona by force of military, got his kitten beat and knew he couldn't do it again. He learned and bypasses the fighting entirely. It wasn't "Nobody tried to stop him" but "He stopped them from being able to from the start." He starved them all until they gave in, then started rewriting history.

 

Until Path of Fire, Joko's empire was operating just fine, and had strength.  Your points.

A; He utterly failed to wipe out the sunspears. He reduced them to a handful of wanderers with no real power, just legends. He hunted them down whenever they appeared. This would be akin to saying Palpatine didn't wipe out the jedi order in star wars.

B: The Order of Shadows/whispers smartly... stayed hidden. And infact, there are implications they actively helped Joko at times to maintain the status quo.

C : What Dissident movement? The ones that spawned after the nation got wrecked by two completely separate invasions?

D : In all honesty, he never really tried. It was beyond his borders so he randomly would poke it, but didn't actually care until the commander started wrecking kitten.

E: Where do you get this from? Every map in path of fire is Elona in the middle of being invaded and ravaged by two fighting armies. It's brought up that the revolts in Istan came about because the nobility were hoarding food and supplies, specifically because of the invasions up north. It wasn't some long brewing hatred of Joko, but a more recent issue coming about.

F: I don't recall this part being brought up, ever.

 

Path of Fire we don't demolish anything. Infact the order of shadows specifically has us help Vabbi because if the awoken were to be wiped out (like the commander wanted) the nation would fall apart and huge numbers of people would die. Desert Highlands was Joko doing sunspear hunting and raiding the Tomb of Primeval kings. In Desolation we had open war between the forged and Awoken, spilling into Vabbi. Vabbi which was facing the invasion from the west, and the branded storms from the east.

The griffon achievements have us reunite a small band of sunspears, but it's not military power. S4 has us see that Istan was in a revolt because of resource shortages and hoarding, which the few sunspear survivors there turned against Joko by recruiting.

 

By the time of Gandara the empire is no in collaspe. Infact, we get told at Jahai the Awoken armies were mobilized and about to march south to completely squash us when Joko died, removing his control over them. That was why Gandara was a win, we severed the head before the rest could come crashing down on our kitten. If Joko had survived Gandara (Aurene not coming in), he would have marched forth from the fortress with an awoken commander and Braham at his side, the rest of the awoken armies swarming the rear lines of the allied forces, and the scarab plague unleashed.

 

Joko knew the value of propaganda, and used it heavily. He allowed the commander to underestimate him, and nearly won. If it wasn't for Aurene, he would have. But he was unique for villains as he had a goal (conquer and control Elona) and when he had it, he was fine. He didn't give a kitten about the rest of the world until the world literally smashed down his walls, wrecked his home, and kittened up his art collection. He made the world see the Propaganda, not him. Which is why I always shake my head at the people who take the "PRAISE JOKO!" meme as serious lore. It's how Joko wanted everybody to see him. And those smart enough not to buy in instead think he's a joker.

 

However, I'll agree that it's not "Anet didn't want to deal with the old stuff." but Anet instead going 'Listen, we are wrapping up the story of Joko in S4 after path of fire. That's not a thread we can just ignore." People wanted more from him which is fair, but Joko got a decent treatment anyway.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

22 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'd have to disagree about Joko being a paper tiger. Before he tried to conquer Elona by force of military, got his kitten beat and knew he couldn't do it again. He learned and bypasses the fighting entirely. It wasn't "Nobody tried to stop him" but "He stopped them from being able to from the start." He starved them all until they gave in, then started rewriting history.

 

Until Path of Fire, Joko's empire was operating just fine, and had strength.  Your points.

A; He utterly failed to wipe out the sunspears. He reduced them to a handful of wanderers with no real power, just legends. He hunted them down whenever they appeared. This would be akin to saying Palpatine didn't wipe out the jedi order in star wars.

B: The Order of Shadows/whispers smartly... stayed hidden. And infact, there are implications they actively helped Joko at times to maintain the status quo.

C : What Dissident movement? The ones that spawned after the nation got wrecked by two completely separate invasions?

D : In all honesty, he never really tried. It was beyond his borders so he randomly would poke it, but didn't actually care until the commander started wrecking kitten.

E: Where do you get this from? Every map in path of fire is Elona in the middle of being invaded and ravaged by two fighting armies. It's brought up that the revolts in Istan came about because the nobility were hoarding food and supplies, specifically because of the invasions up north. It wasn't some long brewing hatred of Joko, but a more recent issue coming about.

F: I don't recall this part being brought up, ever.

 

If you read Koss' journals he states he tried to convince people to go take out Joko, but pretty much no one listened to him, so it ended up being just him and a handful of people who went to attack Joko to try to stop him before he could do anything. Literally had Elona actually tried they could have easily taken out Joko before he became an issue. His rise to power was due to a lack of trying on Elona's part. Literally, no one tired.

1. Well no, as we see in Istan the Sunspears had a pretty organized base, a number of recruits, and were staging large operations against Joko, all before we arrived there. Its the exact opposite of just some stragglers.
2. Basic intelligence and spying work is part of any nation. The Mordan Crescent should have been dealing with the Order of Shadows, who hinded Joko more then they helped him, since they were attacking Joko's nation. Also... hidden? seriously? when they have a giant obvious base a stone's throw from Joko's palace? You must think Joko is even more stupid then I think he is.
3. The large scale dissident movement spanning from Vabbi into Amnoon leading refugees out of Elona for years before Balthazar or the Branded shwoed up.
4. Joko did try multiple times, and its mentioned Joko has been trying for years to take Amnoon. The placing of Zehlon Ossa in Deadlock Sweep was to blockade the main pass into Amnoon to try to force them to surrender to him.
5. literally all the lore from PoF that has shown these issues to have been issues since before Kralk or Balthazar showed up. This are LONG standing issues with Joko's rule.
6. There is dialogue in the Desolation near the OoS base where one of the Keepers is talking to Kossan and tells him he will need to be the hero that unites Elona once they manage to take down Joko, and clear out the branded. Literally they were thinking of Joko's fall within Kossan's near future.

22 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Path of Fire we don't demolish anything. Infact the order of shadows specifically has us help Vabbi because if the awoken were to be wiped out (like the commander wanted) the nation would fall apart and huge numbers of people would die. Desert Highlands was Joko doing sunspear hunting and raiding the Tomb of Primeval kings. In Desolation we had open war between the forged and Awoken, spilling into Vabbi. Vabbi which was facing the invasion from the west, and the branded storms from the east.

The griffon achievements have us reunite a small band of sunspears, but it's not military power. S4 has us see that Istan was in a revolt because of resource shortages and hoarding, which the few sunspear survivors there turned against Joko by recruiting.

We did though.

Thwarting his plans to harass Diviner's Reach, and take hostages, in the Desert Highlands.

The lifting of the blockade he placed on Amnoon by killing Zhelon Ossa. The raid against the Deadhouse that resulted in the death of Jabari who was lording over Palawa's Grace, and all the other events in and around Palawa's Grace where we help stop his forces from controlling the citizens, and taking supplies from the back into his territory, in the Elon Riverlands.

Us luring Junudu wurms to wreck one of his major forts in the Desolation. Us killing the forces protecting his palace, and the whole Bonestrand event chain where we help free that village(and all the other Bonestrand events) in the Desolation.

In Vabbi we killed the three Judges who ran his entire awakening court system, while helping to inspire the younger generation to rise up against hi m at the academy.

Not to mention ltierally tricking his army into going head on into Balthazar's and the branded, wiping out a huge portion of his forces. We demolish pretty much every major system/plan he had set up in all the areas we visit.

22 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

By the time of Gandara the empire is no in collaspe. Infact, we get told at Jahai the Awoken armies were mobilized and about to march south to completely squash us when Joko died, removing his control over them. That was why Gandara was a win, we severed the head before the rest could come crashing down on our kitten. If Joko had survived Gandara (Aurene not coming in), he would have marched forth from the fortress with an awoken commander and Braham at his side, the rest of the awoken armies swarming the rear lines of the allied forces, and the scarab plague unleashed.

Total failure throughout the north desert, mass revolts in Istan, the people of Kourna siding against you, your oldest enemy coming back in force on multiple fronts, and with allies in the Corsairs, Order of Shadows, and ghosts, and being forced to hold up in a fortress on the edge of your territory. That is the definition of total political collapse. If any nation in real life was suffering from a similar situation total collapse would be used to describe it.

[Kalavier.1097]

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

If you read Koss' journals he states he tried to convince people to go take out Joko, but pretty much no one listened to him, so it ended up being just him and a handful of people who went to attack Joko to try to stop him before he could do anything. Literally had Elona actually tried they could have easily taken out Joko before he became an issue. His rise to power was due to a lack of trying on Elona's part. Literally, no one tired.

 

Koss tried to do a preemptive strike before Joko had done anything, and failed. He tried rallying a post nightfall trio of nations to march to war. Also, with his regen ability, it's unclear if anybody in Elona could've actually stopped him at the time. It's not like Koss or the heroes who were with him were at all push overs. The best sunspears tried and failed.

And after that Joko starved out the nations until they bent over and pleaded for mercy.

 

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

1. Well no, as we see in Istan the Sunspears had a pretty organized base, a number of recruits, and were staging large operations against Joko, all before we arrived there. Its the exact opposite of just some stragglers.
2. Basic intelligence and spying work is part of any nation. The Mordan Crescent should have been dealing with the Order of Shadows, who hinded Joko more then they helped him, since they were attacking Joko's nation. Also... hidden? seriously? when they have a giant obvious base a stone's throw from Joko's palace? You must think Joko is even more stupid then I think he is.
3. The large scale dissident movement spanning from Vabbi into Amnoon leading refugees out of Elona for years before Balthazar or the Branded shwoed up.
4. Joko did try multiple times, and its mentioned Joko has been trying for years to take Amnoon. The placing of Zehlon Ossa in Deadlock Sweep was to blockade the main pass into Amnoon to try to force them to surrender to him.
5. literally all the lore from PoF that has shown these issues to have been issues since before Kralk or Balthazar showed up. This are LONG standing issues with Joko's rule.
6. There is dialogue in the Desolation near the OoS base where one of the Keepers is talking to Kossan and tells him he will need to be the hero that unites Elona once they manage to take down Joko, and clear out the branded. Literally they were thinking of Joko's fall within Kossan's near future.

 

 

1: Yes, and we arrive in Istan well after the revolts started. We didn't show up the day of the problems. They had been occuring since path of fire. As I recall, during the course of the episode we actually end up allowing them to be able to field said forces and properly strike back, where before they were holed up.

2: I distinctly recall information in path of fire that implied/stated the order of shadows was known to flip flop, helping sunspear survivors one day, to refusing to help them another. They worked against Joko but in a very slow, very long game.  The order of shadows was few in number (their words) and scattered about. Yes they had the chantry, but how much of it looked like an abandoned ruin from the outside before we got there and they were in full scale war with the forged?

3: What about it was large scale? We only arrive after both the forged and branded had invaded and caused a refugee crisis. Yes, there were people opposing him but the image we are given is that before it was invaded by two armies, Elona was functional and orderly.

4: A blockade is pretty kitten poor when it only covers a single direction. It seems more like he was trying to block people from reaching Amnoon from Elona.

5: That's interesting you took it that way because the way it was presented from my view was that we are looking at a society thrown into total chaos by two warring invasions happening at the exact same time as a central leader (Joko) was MIA and nobody in power knew where he was, or what the situation with him is. Compound that with the commander actively misleading awoken generals and dragging a chunk of the army into a field battle that resulted in heavy losses...  Yes, Elona had issues but to suggest it was so weak is interesting.

6: They actually don't say that, based off the wiki lines I'm reading now. That was when Joko was MIA and nobody knew where he was, mind you. The dialogue talks about them taking over in the aftermath of the three way war, nothing about joko.

 

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

We did though.

Thwarting his plans to harass Diviner's Reach, and take hostages, in the Desert Highlands.

The lifting of the blockade he placed on Amnoon by killing Zhelon Ossa. The raid against the Deadhouse that resulted in the death of Jabari who was lording over Palawa's Grace, and all the other events in and around Palawa's Grace where we help stop his forces from controlling the citizens, and taking supplies from the back into his territory, in the Elon Riverlands.

Us luring Junudu wurms to wreck one of his major forts in the Desolation. Us killing the forces protecting his palace, and the whole Bonestrand event chain where we help free that village(and all the other Bonestrand events) in the Desolation.

In Vabbi we killed the three Judges who ran his entire awakening court system, while helping to inspire the younger generation to rise up against hi m at the academy.

Not to mention ltierally tricking his army into going head on into Balthazar's and the branded, wiping out a huge portion of his forces. We demolish pretty much every major system/plan he had set up in all the areas we visit.

Total failure throughout the north desert, mass revolts in Istan, the people of Kourna siding against you, your oldest enemy coming back in force on multiple fronts, and with allies in the Corsairs, Order of Shadows, and ghosts, and being forced to hold up in a fortress on the edge of your territory. That is the definition of total political collapse. If any nation in real life was suffering from a similar situation total collapse would be used to describe it.

 

Desert highlands as I recall was not a "take over" operation but instead a sunspear hunting operation.

Zhelon Ossa was a bounty, so that may or may not have been something the commander did. Either way, the "blockade" did jack kitten to stop refugees from reaching Amnoon (fact) or stop the city from receiving supplies (also fact). The Jabari chain as I recall ends with the comment that Joko would likely to raise him again(when he returns), so it was a temporary respite. Infact, in s4 we run into the one Mordant guy we killed, raised again. The fort events was a duel attack against forged and risen, and likewise we didn't really free the village, just stopped the killing. They served Joko, it was just a madman killing them to raise as awoken for the war that was the issue.

 

I'd point out the "younger generation" were young kids, so that's a while before they could get into power. And it wasn't even all of them. The three judges sure, but Joko returned after PoF ended, and started raising awoken again. Which would include those three.

 

It's shown to use that Joko can reawaken the fallen, so while yes he lost forces to the final battle, the rest he could rise up once more considering he had the bodies.

 

I think you are overstating the efforts in the north desert. The mass revolts in Istan came about after two invasions sapped the island of supplies. Kourna wasn't that heavily populated anyway, the region we were in. It wasn't "The people" because there were large numbers of joko loyalists attacking the one farming village anyway. Joko wasn't holed up in Gandara either, he was there with a purpose, which was restoring the scarab plague. Which by the time we get there, he actually had. It was deployed all around the battlefield limiting allied response, you can see numbers of awoken Olmakhan and other forces there too (even Sylvari, which means Joko was actively raising dead as they fell in the battle). He had literally an army marching south to pincer movement us, and we got lucky by Aurene eating him and cutting his control.

 

In Jahai we literally get told the reinforcements were halfway there when the compulsion stopped, and they ceased marching at that point. Joko's stand in Gandara wasn't that of a losing man holed up out of fear or lack or power, but him luring his enemies into an engagement to unleash the scarab plague upon them. And this was after two invasions. And we know Joko can simply raise the dead over and over again. Yeah, Istan was rebelling at the time. But if Aurene had not been in the picture, Gandara would've simply been the turning point.

 

edit: Either way, Joko's treatment in GW2 wasn't Anet just dumping plots because they don't give a kitten, but ending an arc that if left alone would've just caused problems in the now, and future.

 

edit: I see the confused reaction, and I laugh. The problem with listing all those important people as dead is, that assumes they stay dead. Archon Iberu dies three times on screen, brought back twice before Joko died. The Warden is killed on screen 3 times, brought back by Joko.

Going "We killed the three judges!" means kitten in lasting effects if Joko returned and simply raised them back up. 😛

Edited March 22, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Narcemus.1348]

Honestly, looking back I think that the reason that Joko and Lazarus were interesting enemy concepts for Guild Wars veterans was simply because the scale of Guild Wars 1 was far smaller than that of Guild Wars 2. And I'm not talking the world size or anything like that, but the scale and scope of enemies. Sure Abaddon was a pretty high stakes scenario and ArenaNet had seemed to start into the cycle of bigger enemy every time when it came to the story, but to start with we were fighting much smaller scale things. We fought cultists, liches, high level spellcasters, an envoy of the dead and a warlord. The stakes were still big, but on a far smaller scope than fighting the fundamental powers that maintain existence and simultaneously threaten all living beings.

 

Guild Wars 2's main antagonists were just too big for the focus to have been on the much smaller enemies left over from the previous game's story. Guild Wars 1 veterans were doomed to be disappointed in that regard.