3 Simple Changes that will Perfect Condition Revenant.

[vilesoldier.9826]

As it stands, I'm generally a fan of the new direction of Condi Rev and am pleased with its new role as a dps rather than a bunker. However, a few feasible changes/updates would drastically improve the gameplay feel of its sustain, without bringing it back into its overperforming days (imo ofcourse).

 

Changes as follows.

1. Empowering Misery now ignores Poison.

2. Seething Malice and Yearning Empowerment are now one combined Minor Master Trait. Yearning Empowerment becomes Host of Pain (Effectiveness of Resolution is doubled, now is 66% decrease)

3. Pain Absorption grants additional Resolution per condition, to match its Resistance effect. (edit: or even just swap the Resolution and Resistance effect on Pain Absorption)

 

Reasons why I propose these changes as they are.

a) I do not want a condition immune build.

It was hard for me to imagine what pre-May 11th Resistance was like, and how it affected the playstyle of Condi Rev. But looking back recently on several videos and streams of Pre-nerf Condi Rev, it's amazing that this was not addressed sooner. The idea of a boon that makes one immune to the entirety of a source of damage (one of two btw) as long as you could upkeep it was and is ridiculous, and I for one am happy Anet has adjusted it. The gameplay of "safely" juggling conditions from allies onto yourself then back onto enemies is interactive and fun, but it was too safe with zero inherent risk to highlight one's experience/skill. THAT BEING SAID, see next point... 

 

b) "You are less susceptible to condition damage".

This phrase is the final sentence of the new flavor text that Anet added to the Corruption traitline (a set of specialization core-values if you will). And curiously, I can count only one trait that supports this line directly, and it's the optional Major Grandmaster "Permeating Pestilence". It strikes me as odd that a core-value of Corruption is less susceptibility to condition "damage", yet all its boons affect "non-damaging" conditions. It makes more sense that a baseline Minor trait increases the effectiveness of our new damaging-condi mitigation boon, to match the core-values that Anet themselves envisions for Corruption. The same goes for "Pain" Absorption, it's insane that this skill prioritizes Resistance over Resolution, especially when Demonic Defiance is literally the only relevant Adept trait option. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[Fueki.4753]

I actually think Arenanet should rename Empowering Misery into "Devour Misery" and have Revenants consume the conditions, instead of just getting healing from them. In PvE this won't change much and in sPvP it's a fair short-time counter against the stupidly high conditions spam.

Pain Absorption should transfer conditions from allies to enemies. This would be another short-time counter for said conditions spam.

These changes would not make Mallyx users immune to conditions, but might force conditions spammers to think maybe 5% more than they currently do.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Shao.7236]

Resistance needs it's duration restored on top of everything else, barely does anything now and the boon is extremely rare.

 

It's hardly a good thing that Poison modifiers is not affected by any boons and should be by either Resolution or Resistance like it used to before. Counters like this are a good thing because they take investment.

 

Being able to be completely immune to condition damage before wasn't really an issue, it's the fact you had stuff like Rune of Resistance that had low ICD or Infuse Light that lasted too long, which they nerfed after gutting Mallyx. They literally nerfed all of Mallyx before nerfing the actually issues, leaving it in the pathetic state it is now and they're still nerfing parts of Revenant that makes no sense, FE range is super clunky now while IR Initial stability has a 1 second gap that can get you killed.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Virdo.1540]

On 3/19/2022 at 6:03 AM, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

Changes as follows.

1. Empowering Misery now ignores Poison.

 

Imo ,resistance should simply remove the "less healing"-effect from poison, but keep the damage.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 3/20/2022 at 12:30 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Resistance needs it's duration restored on top of everything else, barely does anything now and the boon is extremely rare.

 

It's hardly a good thing that Poison modifiers is not affected by any boons and should be by either Resolution or Resistance like it used to before. Counters like this are a good thing because they take investment.

 

Being able to be completely immune to condition damage before wasn't really an issue, it's the fact you had stuff like Rune of Resistance that had low ICD or Infuse Light that lasted too long, which they nerfed after gutting Mallyx. They literally nerfed all of Mallyx before nerfing the actually issues, leaving it in the pathetic state it is now and they're still nerfing parts of Revenant that makes no sense, FE range is super clunky now while IR Initial stability has a 1 second gap that can get you killed.

 

Resistance do not need to be restored.

 

Poison should be dealt in 2 parts. Resistance make you ignore the healing penalty, resolution lower the damage ticks.

[Shao.7236]

14 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

 

Resistance do not need to be restored.

 

Poison should be dealt in 2 parts. Resistance make you ignore the healing penalty, resolution lower the damage ticks.

Much of the Resistance duration that got nerfed does need to be restored to most of it's former. There's hardly anymore than 1 second in most cases which is not enough to even get out of Binding Roots reliably.

[Kulvar.1239]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Much of the Resistance duration that got nerfed does need to be restored to most of it's former. There's hardly anymore than 1 second in most cases which is not enough to even get out of Binding Roots reliably.

You know that Pain Absorption give longer boon now than before right ?

[Shao.7236]

17 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

You know that Pain Absorption give longer boon now than before right ?

That hardly matters when Resistance duration in:

1.  Spirit Boon is useless.
2. Demonic Defiance is useless.
3. Fiendish Tenacity is useless.

Pain Absorption in optimal use is also a suicide button and there is no reliable way to transfer as Core without putting yourself in the worst situations and still Permeating Pestilence got nerfed in application and numbers, having a delay on transfer was justified but reducing the amount of conditions is not.

 

We don't talk about Mallyx F2 Herald because that one was always busted as an instant cast in a large radius and they never addressed it in anyway. Meanwhile Forced Engagement gets nerfed 3 ways into uselessness rather than changing what made it stronger in the first place.

 

I played Core Condition for the longest time with purely damage reduction and they had to nerf that too. I could survive just as good as when Resistance actually affected conditions just to prove that what was truly broken isn't damage immunity but the fact that you had things that like Rune of Resistance that could be abused or Infuse Light that you could get easily 5k tick heals.

[Kulvar.1239]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

That hardly matters when Resistance duration in:

1.  Spirit Boon is useless.
2. Demonic Defiance is useless.
3. Fiendish Tenacity is useless.

 

Fiendish Tenacity is definitively not useless. It's quite nice to have for solo PvE.

 

[Shao.7236]

10 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Fiendish Tenacity is definitively not useless. It's quite nice to have for solo PvE.

 

Yeah thought so. You're coming from a PvE perspective. Look at PvP and see why it's useless.

[Kulvar.1239]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Yeah thought so. You're coming from a PvE perspective. Look at PvP and see why it's useless.

You never specified you were only speaking of the PvP version.
It's been 2 years that they nerfed it to 1s. Well before the rework of resistance.
They hate PvP build with sustain, that's why they deleted all those amulets. It's a sustain talent.
ANet want you to use Permeating Pestilence instead.

[Shao.7236]

39 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

You never specified you were only speaking of the PvP version.
It's been 2 years that they nerfed it to 1s. Well before the rework of resistance.
They hate PvP build with sustain, that's why they deleted all those amulets. It's a sustain talent.
ANet want you to use Permeating Pestilence instead.

I was using that and they nerfed it hard too, anyway point is. Sure the nerf worked at the time even though rune of resistance was the problem along with infuse light but let's just put that aside and think about how Resistance can be useful again since it hardly does anything now. Poison effect needs to be countered by something again, Resistance is perfect for it. Duration is EXTREMELY low in PvP and it would be nice to have it back.

[vilesoldier.9826]

On 3/20/2022 at 1:34 PM, Virdo.1540 said:

Imo ,resistance should simply remove the "less healing"-effect from poison, but keep the damage.

I like this better, its a simple idea that definitely adds the investment Shao was talking about, and is available to more classes than just Crev. I was just looking for ways to not have poison be untouchable that can only be hard mitigated.

 

On 3/20/2022 at 7:30 AM, Shao.7236 said:

Being able to be completely immune to condition damage before wasn't really an issue, it's the fact you had stuff like Rune of Resistance that had low ICD or Infuse Light that lasted too long, which they nerfed after gutting Mallyx. They literally nerfed all of Mallyx before nerfing the actually issues, leaving it in the pathetic state it is now and they're still nerfing parts of Revenant that makes no sense, FE range is super clunky now while IR Initial stability has a 1 second gap that can get you killed.

**Funny, it was actually your earlyy videos Shao that sparked this whole topic. I still come back for the crev theorycraft nostalgia.

 

While I definitely agree that the order of changes (and lack of Mallyx compensation) was not ideal, I still think resistance = condi immunity was an overly buff effect that while rare, was very potent on every Crev variant (especially paired with Pain absorption). And yea Herald variant saw the most play since, as you said, it had the most potent additional immunity/heal modifiers, but your Core variation (also as you mentioned) had near-immunity levels of condi mitigation modifiers on top of old resistance. It just feels like too much overlap.

And resistance was actually even less of a problem when several classes had many damaging condis being spit out in the 8+ stack range regularly, but that seems to have shifted to more non-damaging condi spam, which compliments the new resistance. 

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

I like this better, its a simple idea that definitely adds the investment Shao was talking about, and is available to more classes than just Crev. I was just looking for ways to not have poison be untouchable that can only be hard mitigated.

 

**Funny, it was actually your earlyy videos Shao that sparked this whole topic. I still come back for the crev theorycraft nostalgia.

 

While I definitely agree that the order of changes (and lack of Mallyx compensation) was not ideal, I still think resistance = condi immunity was an overly buff effect that while rare, was very potent on every Crev variant (especially paired with Pain absorption). And yea Herald variant saw the most play since, as you said, it had the most potent additional immunity/heal modifiers, but your Core variation (also as you mentioned) had near-immunity levels of condi mitigation modifiers on top of old resistance. It just feels like too much overlap.

And resistance was actually even less of a problem when several classes had many damaging condis being spit out in the 8+ stack range regularly, but that seems to have shifted to more non-damaging condi spam, which compliments the new resistance. 

I agree with the overlap, it was just.. Arguably negligible to have 100% immunity with Resistance since durations were so nerfed that it didn't really matter whatever Resistance did, all I cared was for countering Poison, but that's just my take.

 

What I'm really not happy about is nerfing of damage reduction on top of everything else like Hammer or Initial Stability, stuff that makes no sense as to why they changed it and getting me killed because of the RNG factor to them.

Mallyx is fun as long as you don't get poisoned right now, that's the most I can ever take out of it.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Old resistance was just a boon that could be corrupted/stripped away. I had absolutely no problems fighting condi revs as condi necromancer whatsoever. But that's too much to ask from 90% condi spammers these days.
You can easily reach high lvl of condi damage reduction by running Righteous Rebel already so I guess that'd have to be changed too.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Vasdamas Anklast.1607

[vilesoldier.9826]

8 minutes ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

Old resistance was just a boon that could be corrupted/stripped away. I had absolutely no problems fighting condi revs as condi necromancer whatsoever. But that's too much to ask from 90% condi spammers these days.

this is why it was unhealthy. Counters exclusively available to one class is not a good thing.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

17 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

this is why it was unhealthy. Counters exclusively available to one class is not a good thing.

It's not like revenant had other good anti-condi options aside from mallyx tho and like I said there was a lot of counterplay against it. Especially for mesmers and necros which were and still are popular condition spam specs lmao
 

[Nephalem.8921]

10 hours ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

Old resistance was just a boon that could be corrupted/stripped away. I had absolutely no problems fighting condi revs as condi necromancer whatsoever. But that's too much to ask from 90% condi spammers these days.
You can easily reach high lvl of condi damage reduction by running Righteous Rebel already so I guess that'd have to be change too.

What if you arent playing necro? multiple professions have no access to boonstrip at all.

[vilesoldier.9826]

19 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I agree with the overlap, it was just.. Arguably negligible to have 100% immunity with Resistance since durations were so nerfed that it didn't really matter whatever Resistance did, all I cared was for countering Poison, but that's just my take.

 

What I'm really not happy about is nerfing of damage reduction on top of everything else like Hammer or Initial Stability, stuff that makes no sense as to why they changed it and getting me killed because of the RNG factor to them.

Mallyx is fun as long as you don't get poisoned right now, that's the most I can ever take out of it.

yea its a fair take, but lets be real we all didn't complain abt the 100% condi immunity bonus either.

((I'm actually curious your opinion, but I think in a world where Vind exists that Jalis isn't allowed to be as good as it once was))

 

however,

16 hours ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

It's not like revenant had other good anti-condi options aside from mallyx tho and like I said there was a lot of counterplay against it. Especially for mesmers and necros which were and still are popular condition spam specs lmao
 

 

arguing that "there was a lot of counterplay against it" (last i checked just boonstrip + corruption) as a validation for old resistance, when 1) the only reliable counter was actually its own nerfed durations and 2) Necro was the only* realistic provider of boon strip ability (mesmer boon strip on herald variant? laughable. thief? aegis is top steal priority.)

 

is wild.

 

*other than another crev.

[Shao.7236]

20 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

((I'm actually curious your opinion, but I think in a world where Vind exists that Jalis isn't allowed to be as good as it once was))

I believe Revenant needs more condition damage reduction but not by easy means, Dark Aura is really underused and should honestly be granted for 5 seconds on Demon Skill use rather than the meaningless short Resistance with Demonic Defiance, matching the ICD. Spiritual Resolution should get it's ICD reduced to 5 seconds while Resolution last 5 seconds by default. Combining modifiers like RotGD+Breakrazor Bastion's were one of the most fun things I ever had till they nerfed them. There was a lot of potential when I saw Urn modifiers as well but right now there's hardly any good coming out of Mallyx, applying my recommended changes is a buff towards sustain and damage without having to do something like doubling the efficiency of Resolution because this isn't really necessary when you have existing buffs that are just so neglected and could fit thematically, Pain Absorption should really apply Resolution to teammates as well.

In a realistic flow by yourself, you could PA (Resolution + Dark Aura) + RotGD + Vengeful Hammers + Rune of Hoelbrak/Rune of the Stars to achieve complete immunity to damage with 105% damage reduction for a few seconds if I've done the math properly ofc cause this multiplicative stuff confuses the hell out of me still.

Vindicator honestly feels like it has a bit of everything but either going all the way offense or defense depending on the stance, as for the evade it's the same thing, they could have left it as it is but the trade off is honestly justified if you're gonna give it special benefits, they didn't want players to go Vindi for GS exclusively either because you can tell that's exactly what players wanted and would have just overshadowed a lot of Revenant content.

 

The new legends are really strong but for the right reasons right now since you're unable to hybrid them at will without giving up on the other, the evade adds to that fact which is a good thing.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Shao.7236

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/6/2022 at 7:14 AM, GeneralBM.5781 said:

yea its a fair take, but lets be real we all didn't complain abt the 100% condi immunity bonus either.

((I'm actually curious your opinion, but I think in a world where Vind exists that Jalis isn't allowed to be as good as it once was))

 

however,

 

arguing that "there was a lot of counterplay against it" (last i checked just boonstrip + corruption) as a validation for old resistance, when 1) the only reliable counter was actually its own nerfed durations and 2) Necro was the only* realistic provider of boon strip ability (mesmer boon strip on herald variant? laughable. thief? aegis is top steal priority.)

 

is wild.

 

*other than another crev.

If only one profession has sufficient boonstrip, was that a problem with the boon, or a problem with the availability of boonstrip?

In this case, I do think the general idea of reducing the strength of resistance was valid, but given the whole concept of Mallyx, and revenant's general lack of countermeasures to conditions otherwise, it probably does deserve to have the resistance durations restored and more resolution to be added. (One of the crazy things about the change is that, with the exception of Jalis revs, professions with Retribution were usually those which already had plenty of other condition mitigation while those who relied on resistance usually didn't, so it became a case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.)

I would note that, in its heyday, boon removal was a pretty strong cRev counter. It's just that if you didn't have it naturally as part of your build, adding it usually meant you were disadvantaging yourself against everything else with the meta at the time.