Dragon's End Meta is Garbage

[Erise.5614]

21 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I really want to see what people would say if Anet just brought this meta up to the level of let's say Deimos.
Up the required DPS to ~15k minimum and add mechanics that instantly wipe your attempt, don't let people revive mid-encounter. Add enemies or mechanics that force you to run healers for each subgroup.
Also remove the Jade Tech Buffs and the free +25% damage.

That'd be interesting.

The comparison is made because of the effort needed to compose a group and get into a successful run. A commander needs to invest as much if not more effort into it than setting up a raid. And as a player you need to be good enough to spot the difference between someone tagging up and an experienced commander. And need to spot the player quality on your map and all of that about an hour in advance.

Individual mechanics are easier. But on the other hand you don't have remotely as much control over your map instance while having to organize ~60 people instead of 10.

It's 10 minutes past clear during EU peak and there is 1 squad looking for players. Asking for 250 li. You need to camp LFG for an extended period of time to have any chance at finding a decent squad that'll accept the average player and they still fail reasonably often.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Astralporing.1957]

24 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I really want to see what people would say if Anet just brought this meta up to the level of let's say Deimos.
Up the required DPS to ~15k minimum and add mechanics that instantly wipe your attempt, don't let people revive mid-encounter. Add enemies or mechanics that force you to run healers for each subgroup.
Also remove the Jade Tech Buffs and the free +25% damage.

That'd be interesting.

They'd just leave. And this meta would end up dead. Simple as that.

[Firebeard.1746]

8 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They'd just leave. And this meta would end up dead. Simple as that.

It's not already dead? I haven't tried in a really long time and the patch notes have a lot of "nope" from me, very little improvement to the overall experience. 

This has to be one of the most tone deaf things I've ever seen a group of devs do as far as listening to their community. And it doesn't give me good feelings about the game moving forward. I wasn't having fun during this and i feel like they wouldn't know fun if it hit them in the face. 

I played this game because it wasn't raid or die. Because it was supposed to be casual. Even though I do less casual content nowadays, I'm really just doing it to get legendaries so I can go back to a more casual style when i'm done. This meta means they've basically taken that from me by blurring those lines. For now, I'm trying to wiggle out of precursor hell and I haven't purchased gems because I'm not sure I still like this game. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They'd just leave. And this meta would end up dead. Simple as that.

I'm suprised they are still trying the meta, since it already is a Raid according to a couple of comments.

2 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It's not already dead? I haven't tried in a really long time and the patch notes have a lot of "nope" from me, very little improvement to the overall experience. 

It's at the point where if you do more than mashing 1 and standing still it's doable.

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

It's at the point where if you do more than mashing 1 and standing still it's doable.

Absolute lie. Yes, some dodging is necessary but gear and a map full of people with good gear is much more important than skill. You can totally mash 1 and succeed or do perfect rotations and loose. 

[Firebeard.1746]

 

Quote

It's at the point where if you do more than mashing 1 and standing still it's doable.

People in my guild that has raiders in it were still complaining it's too hard. This is hyperbole. I've never heard of a group passing it that didn't have full subs organized with boons, etc. from what I hear and see, it has not improved. I tried once after the exposed change, was done after. And I do more than hit 1 and I know the people that have complained in my guild chat do as well. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

Absolute lie. Yes, some dodging is necessary but gear and a map full of people with good gear is much more important than skill. You can totally mash 1 and succeed or do perfect rotations and loose. 

Shocking how level 80 gear in a level 80 zone helps. 
Let's give 50 people who don't know much full Ascended gear with proper Runes and sigils, give them all the needed buffs and throw them at the meta. If gear matters more than skill then they should succeed or come very close to it.

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

People in my guild that has raiders in it were still complaining it's too hard. This is hyperbole. I've never heard of a group passing it that didn't have full subs organized with boons, etc. from what I hear and see, it has not improved. I tried once after the exposed change, was done after. And I do more than hit 1 and I know the people that have complained in my guild chat do as well. 

I'm going to go with "lie" on Raiders complaining about an open world meta below the level of MO and like being too hard. I posted a screenshot earlier of a squad doing a lovely average of 9k DPS per player and still succeeding with 4 minutes to spare. If that is hard for Raiders...

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Let's give 50 people who don't know much full Ascended gear with proper Runes and sigils, give them all the needed buffs and throw them at the meta. If gear matters more than skill then they should succeed or come very close to it.

I mean. You say that sarcastically. But yes. Very much unironically. Yes. They could.

It makes such a massive difference that 50 well geared players could auto attack, react on the spot to mechanics and easily beat DE.

Doesn't need raid players or familiarity with CMs of any kind. If they've ever played through T1 fractals or a few other map bosses they could very easily beat DE. The only meaningful difference is how much DPS is expected. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Just now, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. You say that sarcastically. But yes. Very much unironically. Yes. They could.

It makes such a massive difference that 50 well geared players could auto attack, react on the spot and easily beat DE. 

What I'm saying is giving those 2-3k DPS Soulbeasts Ascended gear, if you can't avoid dying to mechanics your gear won't help you. Those people with 7-8k or more DPS are not walking around in random gear and are not dying to the smallest thing, but according to you in the same gear everyone would win.
If you do 5k DPS in Exotic, you won't magically do 15k in Ascended, you'll get to 6-6.5k.

[Firebeard.1746]

9 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I'm going to go with "lie" on Raiders complaining about an open world meta below the level of MO and like being too hard. I posted a screenshot earlier of a squad doing a lovely average of 9k DPS per player and still succeeding with 4 minutes to spare. If that is hard for Raiders...

So that guy from Teapot's community who was siphoning noobs out of maps was crazy? I mean if just having a raider or two means you automatically pass, then he really shouldn't have had to do that. Hardstuck does raids too dude. Honestly, if I was a dev, after hearing that story, I would have raged nerfed the thing. Like if anything could prove that it's not good OW content, it's the fact that someone was doing this. Lol that casuals are the most toxic element in this community. 

Also, if you watch Muk's stream on his feelings on DE, when he describes the process of just preparing to comm it, it makes you realize that it really is an OW raid. And imo, there's no room for raids in OW because of how random people's gear and skill will always be. Timers should not be testing DPS. Or comps. Because the people who end up in your map are inherently random, and not all are guaranteed to  join your squad or have a useful build, the content, as designed is terrible. The mechanics also feel awful too, they're not always coherent and constantly overlap. I did raidfinder in WoW a couple months ago and had way more fun. 

[Erise.5614]

10 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

What I'm saying is giving those 2-3k DPS Soulbeasts Ascended gear, if you can't avoid dying to mechanics your gear won't help you. Those people with 7-8k or more DPS are not walking around in random gear and are not dying to the smallest thing, but according to you in the same gear everyone would win.
If you do 5k DPS in Exotic, you won't magically do 15k in Ascended, you'll get to 6-6.5k.

No, I'm saying give them the right gear and runes. Tell them what all of that really means and how it affects their gameplay. What difference different choices make. Or simply setting them up right. And they suddenly do deal anywhere between 100%-1000% the damage doing the exact same thing as before (depending on their previous builds).

Though, to be honest. Just that gear swap would probably be enough for most metas to succeed. Pushing the bottom players closer to 7k would often be enough. If the bottom DPS players were dealing 6.5k I doubt any meta with enough players participating would fail. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Just now, Erise.5614 said:

No, I'm saying give them the right gear and runes. Tell them what all of that really means and how it affects their gameplay. What difference different choices make. Or simply setting them up right. And they suddenly do deal anywhere between 100%-1000% the damage doing the exact same thing as before (depending on their previous builds).

Though, to be honest. Just that gear swap would probably be enough for most metas to succeed. Pushing the bottom players closer to 7k would often be enough.

So.. we loop around to the 3-4k DPS player not caring enough to prepare? That's kind of what we've been saying, that if they cared they'd be able to do it. Whether it is listening to people explaining or getting better gear.
If someone shows up in mismatched gear, not knowing how to play their profession and not listening to others explaining what will happen then it's still not up to the gear.
If I could do 19k DPS on my Trailblazer-Viper Mirage I threw together an hour before going to EoD maps with it then it is not my gear carrying me, but the fact that I know what to expect from the fight and my basic understanding of Mirage.

8 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

So that guy from Teapot's community who was siphoning noobs out of maps was crazy? I mean if just having a raider or two means you automatically pass, then he really shouldn't have had to do that. Hardstuck does raids too dude. Honestly, if I was a dev, after hearing that story, I would have raged nerfed the thing. Like if anything could prove that it's not good OW content, it's the fact that someone was doing this. Lol that casuals are the most toxic element in this community. 

Also, if you watch Muk's stream on his feelings on DE, when he describes the process of just preparing to comm it, it makes you realize that it really is an OW raid. And imo, there's no room for raids in OW because of how random people's gear and skill will always be. Timers should not be testing DPS. Or comps. 

Where did I say having a Raider or two is the key to the success of the meta? What I'm saying is that a Raider considering something easier than the easiest Raid encounter too hard is a bit questionable. 
And yeah, constantly screaming for nerfs on every kind of content added after numerous nerfs and changes does fit the term "toxic", also, again, point where I said casuals are the most toxic.

DE isn't the only timed meta. Should we nerf the Echovald meta too, because it requires a minimal DPS due to the timer? Should we nerf Gerent too, because it has a timer?

15 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 Because the people who end up in your map are inherently random, and not all are guaranteed to  join your squad or have a useful build, the content, as designed is terrible. 

I posted a screenshot of a run from earlier today where the players had a whopping average DPS of 9k. You can see a lot of people with rather low DPS there too, so, even with the random people who joined us we still did it.

17 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The mechanics also feel awful too, they're not always coherent and constantly overlap.

Only reasonable complaint.

[Mithrilos.8036]

I remember when Anet said at first that they didn't wanted the community to be cleaved by "gear racism".

And look now, people are on and on about DPS >.>.

 

I rarely dies on Meta Event, I usually know what I'm doing. Yet, my warrior is on full knight stats and is doing average 3.5k DPS. 

But from what I'm reading and see in game, I believe people fully run on offensive stats ( and then you see half of them downed on the first Boss aoe from Soo Won ) this game is pushing everyone so much on the berserk side...

 

I always prefered having a balanced build offense-defense, than just being a powerball of fury. So am I wrong here ? Can't play this game the way you want just because now the meta is just Raid lvl ?

[Erise.5614]

4 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If someone shows up in mismatched gear, not knowing how to play their profession and not listening to others explaining what will happen then it's still not up to the gear.

They don't know they have bad gear and deal bad damage is what I'm saying. 

Like, you always immediately jump to "they don't care", "they just press 1", etc. Which boils down to "they are lazy". 

But the hypothesis of "the majority of the playerbase is too lazy to play the game" is a really weird statement to me. They can learn mechanics and improve their gameplay. But most of them never really get around to finding good builds. The combat system is too complex to simply understand starting out. And it doesn't occur to a lot of them that they are vastly sub par. The game never suggests that to be the case.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Ruisen.9471]

20 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

It takes 1 hour to kill the boss while it has a 20 min timer?  

 

There's alot of people spreading misinformation on the forums about the meta unfortunately 😕

Also a lot of "we failed even though my group was super competent!" with no arc-dps logs to prove that it was actually a competent group.

I'm pretty sure this will go the way of Triple Trouble, where it'll mostly just be a few specific guilds that can lead the meta and clear it consistently.   At the end of the day, a difficult meta will attract a much smaller crowd who enjoys it.   

 Now, as a meta designed for said minority, its amazing content, but they're definitely kidding themselves if they think it'll eventually be popular among most of the people who just want to press 111111.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Ruisen.9471

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, Ruisen.9471 said:

Quote

It takes 1 hour to kill the boss while it has a 20 min timer?  

There's alot of people spreading misinformation on the forums about the meta unfortunately 😕

Also a lot of "we failed even though my group was super competent!" was no indication of what they actually mean by "competent".

To be fair. It takes over an hour to try. Yes, the boss itself is 20 minutes. But you don't know whether your team will be up for it and have to spend over an hour to find out. 

A lot of the "misinformation" is just misunderstanding. 

Just like people comparing it to raids. It requires similar levels of preparation by the commander and decent builds by everyone. In that sense it's similar. Obviously it's not similar in the sense that one person can wipe the team or that you need 15k dps to clear the enrage timer. It's just closer to raids in certain ways than it is to, let's say Octo. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Vaen.2605]

From the notes...better rewards, 5 stacks of the buff given from the pre-events, and bite adjustments.  Let's hope it's enough; as is, this is the best meta I'll never go back to.

[Firebeard.1746]

11 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

So.. we loop around to the 3-4k DPS player not caring enough to prepare? That's kind of what we've been saying, that if they cared they'd be able to do it. Whether it is listening to people explaining or getting better gear.
If someone shows up in mismatched gear, not knowing how to play their profession and not listening to others explaining what will happen then it's still not up to the gear.
If I could do 19k DPS on my Trailblazer-Viper Mirage I threw together an hour before going to EoD maps with it then it is not my gear carrying me, but the fact that I know what to expect from the fight and my basic understanding of Mirage.

Where did I say having a Raider or two is the key to the success of the meta? What I'm saying is that a Raider considering something easier than the easiest Raid encounter too hard is a bit questionable. 
And yeah, constantly screaming for nerfs on every kind of content added after numerous nerfs and changes does fit the term "toxic", also, again, point where I said casuals are the most toxic.

DE isn't the only timed meta. Should we nerf the Echovald meta too, because it requires a minimal DPS due to the timer? Should we nerf Gerent too, because it has a timer?

I posted a screenshot of a run from earlier today where the players had a whopping average DPS of 9k. You can see a lot of people with rather low DPS there too, so, even with the random people who joined us we still did it.

Only reasonable complaint.

Even so, if you only need 9k, siphoning people wasn't necessary. You're completely dodging the main point of why someone was being a toxic jerk to toot your own horn. Also, 9k is a number. It doesn't account for phases where you're not doing DPS. There's a lot of mechanics where you stop DPS on soo won or are just dodging stuff/staying out of bad. 

I have a few answers for echovald: 

1) Confusion procs really hard on the final golem in certain circumstances. I've miralaced on it a lot. Also torment is very effective as well as it's stationary. I'm sure one person can hard carry the DPS req on it if needed
2) I feel like I can get more consistent damage on it
3). The only party-wiping mechanic is no where close to the magnitude of stuff going on in ED. 

It's like saying Can you explain why this apple doesn't taste like an orange? Echovald is no where near as hard as DE and I'm not sure how many complaints we'd see if it was that bad. I did fail echovald once, and it did feel like a hard DPS check, but was able to juke using #1 on my miralac ever since. 

Given maps are completely random and minstrels exists, I wouldn't put a really tough DPS check on ANY OW boss. The moment you tell everyone to start running raid gear and specs everywhere, the build diversity of the game collapses, it becomes unfriendly to anyone who doesn't like those playstyles and quite frankly violates the core DNA of the game. There's no reason for us to ahve that kind of freedom if raiding all the time is what they expect. ANd people didn't fall in love with this game playing raid specs. And quite frankly, I don't like running them all the time either. 
 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Vaen.2605 said:

From the notes...better rewards, 5 stacks of the buff given from the pre-events, and bite adjustments.  Let's hope it's enough; as is, this is the best meta I'll never go back to.

I'm sure this is what the devs intended. 

[Astralporing.1957]

52 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I'm suprised they are still trying the meta, since it already is a Raid according to a couple of comments.

It's primarily either the raiders that are still at it (not many are, most have gotten what they wanted out of it and left long ago), or players that are only now arriving at that map. Most of the casuals that kept failing over and over again either left completely, or are waiting for nerfs.

 

[Mithrilos.8036]

On the Soo Won fight, if people were less dying, more mobile than focusing so much on DPS, maybe it would be easier.

As I always like to hear and say : stay alive so you can fight tomorrow. In this case, stay alive so you can dps longer.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036

[mythical.6315]

11 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

To be fair. It takes over an hour to try. Yes, the boss itself is 20 minutes. But you don't know whether your team will be up for it and have to spend over an hour to find out. 

A lot of the "misinformation" is just misunderstanding. 

Just like people comparing it to raids. It requires similar levels of preparation by the commander and decent builds by everyone. In that sense it's similar. Obviously it's not similar in the sense that one person can wipe the team or that you need 15k dps to clear the enrage timer. It's just closer to raids in certain ways than it is to, let's say Octo. 

Both the escort and actual boss fight takes less than an hour. 

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Both the escort and actual boss fight takes less than an hour. 

Yes, the fight is exactly one hour long. But good luck arriving on the minute and finishing Soo Won.

Without you or most other people on your map having the buff^^

It is, in reality, over an hour. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[mythical.6315]

Just now, Erise.5614 said:

Good luck arriving on the minute and finishing Soo Won.

Without you or most other people on your map having the buff^^

You don’t need the buff

[Mithrilos.8036]

The most troubling issue I had with the meta right now arn't the event or even the boss fight, but being able to join my commander via LFG... its the only thing that kept me out of this map after some tries.