Need more clarity around 60% success rate in DE meta

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

Am I understanding this correctly? You definition of "dps check" is any fight that has a time limit, however loose or tight said limit is? So something like Dragon's Stand, that has a time limit (90 minutes in case of that meta if I remember it correctly) is also a dps check in your book?

Absolutism is rarely useful. So no. It's not the mere existence of a limit no matter how loose it is.

Content is a DPS check if it can at all fail when players with poor builds and poor rotations try to do it, successfully do all mechanics but still fail.

There is a need for a time limit. Both for technical reasons and design reasons. A map where no one is trying to do it shouldn't keep the event alive forever.

1 hour ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

If so, then our definition of "dps check" is very different from mine. I'd still argue that the Dragon's End is not a dps check but rather a mechanics check, because if you do the mechanics you'll likely succeed even on a map doing below-average damage (as long as they do damage at all).

The number someone calculated for average DPS throughout the event is around 7k. That was a while ago so it's probably a bit lower now. But that already includes downtime. So the DPS you need while attacking is much higher. I mean, sure. That's still gonna be below average DPS for raids or fractal CMs. But I'm not sure I'd call that below average for open world.

And, to point that out as well. It's the "likely" in this sentence that bothers me. That leads me to call it a DPS check and what I dislike about it. 

1 hour ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

Or does your definition of "dps check" mean "content that lets you ignore mechanics if you bring high enough dps"? Because that is the case with roughly 99% of all events in game. Going all the way back to dungeons and personal story in 2012, there are plenty of encounters in this game that allow players with considerably above average damage output to ignore mechanics. Have you ever played the crystal mechanic in the final boss fight of Citadel of Flame path 1? Is that a dps check because you can burn through the boss while ignoring the mechanics if you bring enough damage (even easier now, but still very doable back at launch)? How about the bone wall at Tequatl? The crystal thingies in the fight with Old Tom in the Uncategorized Fractal?

This one is kinda close. I think ANet has struggled with it often and neglected the potential behind this direction in design. Faulting dungeons and the personal story is a bit of a cheap shot. They did go through power creep and are extremely outdated. I'd expect flawed design and especially for the story, I'd also expect it to be quite easy. 

But yes. A lot of content ANet creates runs into this problem. Obvious examples that come to my mind are Boneskinner and Goreseval. Instanced content that even leans strongly towards hardcore. And the default meta is to ignore key mechanics by simply "out DPSing them". 

If that's what hardcore players enjoy then more power to them.

But at least for OW, I really don't understand why they don't focus more on such secondary mechanics instead of also focusing it on hard enrage timers and building it around DPS. At least a soft enrage like the islands being destroyed on Dragon's Stand would be nice. Instead of what we have right now where Soo Won just nopes out after 20 minutes. 

1 hour ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

I still fail to see how DE is different from how the game has worked since the beginning. All over the game there are events and mechanics that need to be done, and in most places strong dps makes it easier to (partly) ignore mechanics, but the fight is very much doable even with mediocre and below-average damage output if people play with the mechanics.

DE has two choices. Do medium DPS (above average for OW metas) and do all mechanics very fast. With one timer representing all actions. Or do high damage and ignore most mechanics. 

This would already be improved if the timer was per phase. Giving more specific feedback about what performance ANet expects. Only, this doesn't work with the style of DPS check they are going for because they want to randomly disrupt DPS and throw in things like tail. So instead, they dilute feedback and only have a single timer that gives a yes / no feedback to 50+ players simultaneously whether they did everything well enough or not.

I honestly believe this is where this myth comes from that DPS doesn't matter and low DPS would end in success if people "just did mechanics". Because the performance feedback is so indirect. You must have a map with above average DPS for open world meta events to have any chance. Exactly because it spirals out to waste more and more of your time with things other than dealing damage.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

4 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

The number someone calculated for average DPS throughout the event is around 7k. That was a while ago so it's probably a bit lower now. But that already includes downtime. So the DPS you need while attacking is much higher. I mean, sure. That's still gonna be below average DPS for raids or fractal CMs. But I'm not sure I'd call that below average for open world.

You can still grab all the Jade Bot boosts, the Contributor buffs and the Readiness buff, it boosts your outgoing damage by 25%, probably more. Saying that the required DPS is around 7k just tells you that the fight is not dependent on damage as much as you think.
You know, if you are at 8k DPS, but do the mechanics correctly you help more than Billy with 11k who dies to mechanics half the time.
Another comparison on how low 7k is is the fact Heal Alac Mech is at 5-6k DPS and other healers in general sit around 4k. 

[Erise.5614]

12 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You can still grab all the Jade Bot boosts, the Contributor buffs and the Readiness buff, it boosts your outgoing damage by 25%, probably more. Saying that the required DPS is around 7k just tells you that the fight is not dependent on damage as much as you think.
You know, if you are at 8k DPS, but do the mechanics correctly you help more than Billy with 11k who dies to mechanics half the time.
Another comparison on how low 7k is is the fact Heal Alac Mech is at 5-6k DPS and other healers in general sit around 4k. 

You compare apples with oranges. Encounter averages with training golem values.

Just as example for what 7k encounter average means. The top DPS on that HardStuck all minion necro meme run had somewhere around 7k average DPS after the first two phases. While they were between 15k-20k DPS while attacking Soo Won. 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

You compare apples with oranges. Encounter averages with training golem values.

Just as example for what 7k encounter average means. The top DPS on that HardStuck all minion necro meme run had somewhere around 7k average DPS after the first two phases. While they were between 15k-20k DPS while attacking Soo Won. 

 

5k DPS during a Kaineng run playing Heal Alac Mech.

You mention that Hs's minion Necro meme run's average DPS is 7k, which yet again shows how little the required DPS is that meme runs can do it as well.

[Erise.5614]

16 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

5k DPS during a Kaineng run playing Heal Alac Mech.

You mention that Hs's minion Necro meme run's average DPS is 7k, which yet again shows how little the required DPS is that meme runs can do it as well.

What are you even comparing here? Kaineng basically doesn't have DPS downtimes. Which is why current DPS and encounter DPS is basically the same. 5.1k / 5.1k.

Compared to the video I just linked. 

You talk about how easy it is to reach the second number. When the benchmark you and others keep bringing up is the first number. Which seems to be somewhere around 1/3rd as high on average during Soo Won. 

4.6k / 20k

4.3k / 17.9k

5.4k / 16.5k

4.9k / 15.2k

You and so many others keep talking about how low encounter DPS is and proclaim how incredibly easy it is to have higher current DPS. Higher burn phase DPS. Yeah, no kitten that's easy. But you don't get that kind of Soo Won burn phase uptime. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

20 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

What are you even comparing here? Kaineng basically doesn't have DPS downtimes. Which is why current DPS and encounter DPS is basically the same. 5.1k / 5.1k.

That's Target DPS(Cleave DPS Total Damage).

20 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Compared to the video I just linked. 

You talk about how easy it is to reach the second number. When the benchmark you and others keep bringing up is the first number. Which seems to be somewhere around 1/3rd as high on average during Soo Won. 

4.6k / 20k

4.3k / 17.9k

5.4k / 16.5k

4.9k / 15.2k

You and so many others keep talking about how low encounter DPS is and proclaim how incredibly easy it is to have higher current DPS. Higher burn phase DPS. Yeah, no kitten that's easy. But you don't get that kind of Soo Won burn phase uptime. 

Dragon's End has adds so the cleave DPS is going to be higher obviously. 😄

Edit: Here's the log, I'm player 2, if there was no downtime it should be 5100 and not 1877, right? You can see the DPS per phase. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by IAmNotMatthew.1058

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

That's Target DPS(Cleave DPS Total Damage).

Dragon's End has adds so the cleave DPS is going to be higher obviously. 😄

 

You can see in the first seconds of the video that they reach these DPS numbers without any adds nearby. Just like you can see the average squad cleave DPS during that time reaching over 650k. 

While being called a 5k DPS run. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

9 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

You can see in the first seconds of the video that they reach these DPS numbers without any adds nearby. 

I don't know which video you are talking about, because at the start of that video the two numbers were roughly equal when only Soo-Won was up. If you only have one enemy your Target DPS will be the same as your Cleave DPS, exactly what you see there.
51 seconds in
57 seconds in
1m9s in

If you mean right as the fight starts then you saw ArcDPS resetting for the new fight. You are in combat for let's say a minute, kill whatever enemy(/ies) you were fighting, leave combat, ArcDPS will display your last damage numbers, then when you enter combat it resets. 

  

9 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Just like you can see the average squad cleave DPS during that time reaching over 650k. 

While being called a 5k DPS run. 

Cleave DPS doesn't lead to victory. The 7k DPS required is on Soo-Won, not on every surrounding enemy. If Cleave DPS meant anything on this fight I could just bring my full Minstrel Chrono tank and get to 15-20k without a problem.

If you hit Soo-Won for 2k, but hit other enemies for a combined 18k you won't meet the required DPS, because the adds don't matter, their death doesn't decrease Soo-Won's health, your Target DPS hits only Soo-Won's health.

Edited May 17, 2022 by IAmNotMatthew.1058

[Erise.5614]

8 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I don't know which video you are talking about, because at the start of that video the two numbers were roughly equal when only Soo-Won was up. If you only have one enemy your Target DPS will be the same as your Cleave DPS, exactly what you see there.
51 seconds in
57 seconds in
1m9s in

If you mean right as the fight starts then you saw ArcDPS resetting for the new fight. You are in combat for let's say a minute, kill whatever enemy(/ies) you were fighting, leave combat, ArcDPS will display your last damage numbers, then when you enter combat it resets. 

Yes, at the start they are roughly equal. Reaching over 650k average squad DPS.

Then before it resets the first time after burning around 60%, they are at ~5k DPS total and still 15k-20k current. You claimed it was only due to adds. But clearly they manage to reach these numbers before the first adds spawned as well. 

The commander also said they ended up with about 5k average at the end. 

5k total. Not current. 

Not sure what exactly you are trying to explain with your Kaineng example. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Yes, at the start they are roughly equal. Reaching over 650k average squad DPS.

Then before it resets the first time after burning around 60%, they are at ~5k DPS total and still 15k-20k current. You claimed it was only due to adds. But clearly they manage to reach these numbers before the first adds spawned as well. 

The commander also said they ended up with about 5k average at the end. 

5k total. Not current. 

As you can see here, there is no "Current DPS", only Target/Cleave DPS and Total Target/Cleave Damage.
In the video it's Target DPS(Total Target Damage) in the title bar and Target DPS(Cleave DPS) next to the players.
Do you get it now?

It is obvious that your DPS in the end may be 5k, since as you saw in my log, despite me being mostly at 5k the downtimes and whatnot resulted in me being 1800 only. 

12 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Not sure what exactly you are trying to explain with your Kaineng example. 

Simply that 7k DPS with buffs is not much, I'm not talking about end of the fight number, I'm talking about numbers on the spot. Another explanation I had to do is seemingly the difference between Target and Cleave DPS and how in fights with no adds the Cleave DPS is close to or equal to Target DPS.

At the start they have high DPS, because there was nothing else going on, once you get trash spawning, mechanics going on your DPS will drop, which you saw.

Edited May 17, 2022 by IAmNotMatthew.1058

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

As you can see here, there is no "Current DPS", only Target/Cleave DPS and Total Target/Cleave Damage.

That's true but it comes out as effectively the same in the video. 

Either it's target DPS and total target DPS. Or it's cleave DPS and total target DPS. Depending on how the commander set it up. But in either way you can get a pretty good idea of how much DPS they are capable off and how low that DPS becomes over time. 

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

It is obvious that your DPS in the end may be 5k, since as you saw in my log, despite me being mostly at 5k the downtimes and whatnot resulted in me being 1800 only. 

I mean. Isn't that just proving my point? People talk about 7k or 5k or whatever average target DPS throughout the entire boss fight. 

I'm saying, due to downtime, that's about 1/3rd of the raw DPS one can deal as far as I can tell. Various factors play a role. But that is actually kinda close to your example. Your raw DPS was 5k, less than 2k got recorded. And just to roll that point out. Even assuming a 25% DPS buff, no one in your strike squad cleared 5k target DPS. Neither when calculating from the log (result multiplied by 1.25) nor from the cleave DPS in your screenshot multiplied by 1.25 and divided by 3. (25% buff, target = 1/3rd cleave).

I don't think it's a good comparison. The strike and Soo Won are different in quite a bunch of ways. But yes. Exactly that difference is what I'm talking about. What is overlooked by everyone saying it's so low and so easy. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

9 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Target is how much you dealt to the current boss since going into combat. 

Target DPS is not counted from the start of the fight. In the log it is from the start of the fight if you look for the Full Fight.

11 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

So if you look for a moment where they don't deal significant DPS to adds it's a decent approximation for "current" vs "average encounter" DPS. 

The Cleave DPS doesn't matter. The DPS window doesn't measure their Target DPS from the start of the fight. 

If you are in combat and start dealing damage from the start and you have another test where you wait for a minute while in combat under ideal circustances(same rotation and all) your DPS will be the same at the 2 minute mark, but your total damage will be theoretically double if you go from the start.

14 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. Isn't that just proving my point? People talk about 5k average target DPS throughout the entire boss fight. 

And what I was saying? 7k DPS is low, a minion Necro meme squad being able to do the meta with ~3 minutes to spare just proves that the required damage is not the problem, exactly what I've been saying.

15 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Your support heal mech is quite a bit below the DPS requirements for Soo Won, according to the numbers we have here. 

Heal Alacrity Mechanist runs Harrier gear, Monk Runes, Transference, Concentration/Paralyzation Sigils, thus it's not focusing on DPS, but since it can reach 5-6k DPS despite not focusing on damage whatsoever you can see that the required DPS in the meta is very low.
The fact that I could bring my Heal Mech there and with the boosts I could almost reach the required DPS further proves that the required damage is not the problem.
The DPS number you see on my screenshot doesn't have the 25% boost from map buffs and Jade Bot buffs.

When the required DPS, that people wearing Berserker/Viper, with Scholar/whatever runes and whatnot is almost need to do is almost reached by a build that is a healer you can't argue that "it requires high DPS", because it doesn't.

The meta requires the players to deal with mechanics, your DPS doesn't matter if you are being killed by mechanics constantly.

[Erise.5614]

16 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The fact that I could bring my Heal Mech there and with the boosts I could almost reach the required DPS further proves that the required damage is not the problem.

The DPS number you see on my screenshot doesn't have the 25% boost from map buffs and Jade Bot buffs.

I'm seriously confused. Are we talking about the same thing? The 7k or 5k or whatever are total target DPS. Not cleave DPS, not current target DPS. 

Which means you only reached about 45% of the required DPS. And that is already considering the 25% buff. It's barely 35% without them. I wouldn't call that "almost" the required DPS.

Again, no one in your strike squad reached the required damage if we go by these numbers.

16 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

When the required DPS, that people wearing Berserker/Viper, with Scholar/whatever runes and whatnot is almost need to do is almost reached by a build that is a healer you can't argue that "it requires high DPS", because it doesn't.

I did say I was arbitrarily adding 25% on top to make it comparable.

And yes. It is indeed not high for experienced raiders or otherwise quite hardcore players. I myself can almost double the requirement on my current main DPS. I'm not saying it's impossible.

But it is very high for an open world meta event. Requiring that kind of performance of everyone. Requiring that as average.

A lot of metas can be done with a average squad performance of 5k current target DPS or even less. Soo Won requires several times more.

16 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The meta requires the players to deal with mechanics, your DPS doesn't matter if you are being killed by mechanics constantly.

I mean. Obviously dying and being knocked around makes it harder. But again. The base line necessary, assuming you have excellent coordination (like a squad with 50 people listening on discord), is pretty darn steep for OW content. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

14 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I'm seriously confused. Are we talking about the same thing? The 7k or 5k or whatever are total target DPS. Not cleave DPS, not current target DPS. 

Your "Current Target DPS" is your "total target DPS", it's called "Target DPS".

In boss fights Cleave DPS does not matter.

15 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Which means you only reached about 45% of the required DPS. And that is already considering the 25% buff. It's barely 35% without them. I wouldn't call that "almost" the required DPS.

5000/7000=71%. 125% of 5000 is 6250, which is ~90% of 7k DPS.
45% of 7k is 3150.

But, regardless of how you go around it, even if you take your 45% as "true" a healer reaching 45% of the required DPS without the available map buffs doesn't make the required DPS high.

18 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Again, no one in your strike squad reached the required damage if we go by these numbers.

I did say I was arbitrarily adding 25% on top to make it comparable.

Considering it's a Strike where the 2 healers were second and third highest DPS it's no wonder noone reached the 7k in the end. Besides, the log wasn't linked for that, you confused Target and Cleave DPS - and still seemingly do - when I posted the screenshot and thus I linked the log as well.

21 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

But it is very high for an open world meta event. Requiring that kind of performance of everyone. Requiring that as average.

My Scrapper downscaled to 60 does more than the required DPS with auto attacks, it absolutely isn't high.

21 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. Obviously dying and being knocked around makes it harder. But again. The base line necessary, assuming you have excellent coordination (like a squad with 50 people listening on discord), is pretty darn steep for OW content. 

There is no need for excellent coordination, there is no need for Discord. My first kill, 3 days after the release had the Commander type "Tail" "CC" "Green" "Thronheart" and nothing more, no Discord involved. I haven't been in any run asking for Discord across my almost 30 kills on this meta.

I need to leave this here:
Target DPS: Your outgoing damage measured in damage per second on the target(the boss), this is not measured from the start of the fight, but measured at the moment. 
Cleave DPS: Your outgoing damage measured in damage per second on the target and adds in the area. This, just like Target DPS is measured at the moment and is equal to or higher than Target DPS.

The length of combat has nothing to do with your DPS shown by ArcDPS in game. ArcDPS shows you that based on your current outgoing damage and whatnot your DPS is let's say 30k.
When checking the log it will take your total damage dealt and just divide it with the length of combat. This is why in the log your DPS can be drastically less. If you are at 5k DPS in every phase your DPS in the full fight can be lower. 

[The Boz.2038]

15 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Content is a DPS check if it can at all fail when players with poor builds and poor rotations try to do it, successfully do all mechanics but still fail.

If you do all of the DE mechanics right, the DPS check is ~5.5k. Reaching 5.5k is autoattack build with soldier stats including the hilariously huge bonus damage from the meta events and battery-powered pseudoboons.

[Erise.5614]

8 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Target DPS: Your outgoing damage measured in damage per second on the target(the boss), this is not measured from the start of the fight, but measured at the moment. 

You can see it perfectly in the video I sent: Here, for example. Soo Won burn phase ended. Greens started. They attack minions. Cleave DPS = usual. 
Target DPS = slowly decreasing. But even after 90 seconds of attacking adds it never reached 0. It just decreases by a few DPS each second.

Because target DPS is counted from the moment the boss starts loosing health and only ends when you leave combat.

8 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Cleave DPS: Your outgoing damage measured in damage per second on the target and adds in the area. This, just like Target DPS is measured at the moment and is equal to or higher than Target DPS.

This, different to Target DPS, is measured at the moment. It's not perfect because, yes. It does include any DPS output at all. Including adds running around. But you can use moments without adds to get a rough benchmark of what DPS players are dealing to Soo Won at the moment.

8 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The length of combat has nothing to do with your DPS shown by ArcDPS in game. ArcDPS shows you that based on your current outgoing damage and whatnot your DPS is let's say 30k.
When checking the log it will take your total damage dealt and just divide it with the length of combat. This is why in the log your DPS can be drastically less. If you are at 5k DPS in every phase your DPS in the full fight can be lower. 

This too is wrong. You were at 1.8k DPS because it's only displaying target DPS on the boss. 

If you look at the Combat Replay instead of the Statistics you can see the damage dealt and the target damage deviate. As DPS logs only considers DPS on Minister Li to be target DPS. Nothing during the two add phases on the larger platform is counted as target DPS. 

The recorded DPS is not divided or reduced by anything when displaying it on DPS reports.

8 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

5000/7000=71%. 125% of 5000 is 6250, which is ~90% of 7k DPS.
45% of 7k is 3150.

But, regardless of how you go around it, even if you take your 45% as "true" a healer reaching 45% of the required DPS without the available map buffs doesn't make the required DPS high.

Ok. Let's go over it in detail, not counting your final target DPS but your average cleave DPS. I'll use raw value divided by 3 as that seems to be a decent approximation for Soo Won, though it's a bit less favorable than using your log data.

4266 * 1.25 / 3 = 1777 / 5000 = ~35%

Your top DPS in your strike:

8500 * 1.25 / 3 = 3541 / 5000 = 70%

So, you and your top DPS in that squad make up a bit more than one player worth of Soo Won DPS if we assume 5k necessary target DPS. Already accounting for 25% map buffs.

Hitting 5k target DPS requires on average around 12k DPS output while attacking Soo Won. Which seems to be in line or possibly a very slight tad above what the meme video was dealing in DPS output. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

If you do all of the DE mechanics right, the DPS check is ~5.5k. Reaching 5.5k is autoattack build with soldier stats including the hilariously huge bonus damage from the meta events and battery-powered pseudoboons.

You do not understand the difference between target DPS (aka DPS to the boss throughout the entire fight) and the DPS necessary during burn phases.

Reaching 5.5k target DPS will require you to hit somewhere around 12k DPS during Soo Won burn phases. 

So, please. Do show me some logs of you managing that with such a build. Or admit you are just confusing numbers because it makes it so convenient and easy to ridicule others. 

Edit: Just to clarify. With showing logs I mean a Soo Won log of you only auto attacking and ending up with 5.5k target DPS at the end of the encounter. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Gorem.8104]

17 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Absolutism is rarely useful. So no. It's not the mere existence of a limit no matter how loose it is.

Content is a DPS check if it can at all fail when players with poor builds and poor rotations try to do it, successfully do all mechanics but still fail.

There is a need for a time limit. Both for technical reasons and design reasons. A map where no one is trying to do it shouldn't keep the event alive forever.

The number someone calculated for average DPS throughout the event is around 7k. That was a while ago so it's probably a bit lower now. But that already includes downtime. So the DPS you need while attacking is much higher. I mean, sure. That's still gonna be below average DPS for raids or fractal CMs. But I'm not sure I'd call that below average for open world.

And, to point that out as well. It's the "likely" in this sentence that bothers me. That leads me to call it a DPS check and what I dislike about it. 

This one is kinda close. I think ANet has struggled with it often and neglected the potential behind this direction in design. Faulting dungeons and the personal story is a bit of a cheap shot. They did go through power creep and are extremely outdated. I'd expect flawed design and especially for the story, I'd also expect it to be quite easy. 

But yes. A lot of content ANet creates runs into this problem. Obvious examples that come to my mind are Boneskinner and Goreseval. Instanced content that even leans strongly towards hardcore. And the default meta is to ignore key mechanics by simply "out DPSing them". 

If that's what hardcore players enjoy then more power to them.

But at least for OW, I really don't understand why they don't focus more on such secondary mechanics instead of also focusing it on hard enrage timers and building it around DPS. At least a soft enrage like the islands being destroyed on Dragon's Stand would be nice. Instead of what we have right now where Soo Won just nopes out after 20 minutes. 

DE has two choices. Do medium DPS (above average for OW metas) and do all mechanics very fast. With one timer representing all actions. Or do high damage and ignore most mechanics. 

This would already be improved if the timer was per phase. Giving more specific feedback about what performance ANet expects. Only, this doesn't work with the style of DPS check they are going for because they want to randomly disrupt DPS and throw in things like tail. So instead, they dilute feedback and only have a single timer that gives a yes / no feedback to 50+ players simultaneously whether they did everything well enough or not.

I honestly believe this is where this myth comes from that DPS doesn't matter and low DPS would end in success if people "just did mechanics". Because the performance feedback is so indirect. You must have a map with above average DPS for open world meta events to have any chance. Exactly because it spirals out to waste more and more of your time with things other than dealing damage.

 

This take is perfect really, cause honestly if this fight launched, at launch, with even 10 minutes longer on the timer. The entire perception around DE would be entirely different and none of this would have ever happened. The fact that we have seen many failed attempts with 100% Successful mechanics is rather telling that the entire fight is essentially an open world dps check. 

You can do the fight perfectly, and fail. No one dying, and fail, tail dying as it spawns, and fail, actually pop people out of bubbles and whirlpools and fail, do the wisp jumps and fail, time the champions perfectly and fail. 

 

High DPS though? ignore most mechanics and win. Its a well designed fight in a sense where if they had given us 50% longer on a timer, it'd have gone down sooo much better. Either that or less health on Soo-Won, considering they need to keep this huge Break Bar buff on her before the raid level squads could even beat her. 

[Gorem.8104]

Keep up the good fight Erise, I see most others that want the game to improve and continue to exist have either given up or quit by now it seems. Just the people i've put on ignore left here. 

[yoni.7015]

11 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Keep up the good fight Erise, I see most others that want the game to improve and continue to exist have either given up or quit by now it seems. Just the people i've put on ignore left here. 

Everyone who disagrees with you wants the game to die? Yeah sure … 

[The Boz.2038]

14 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

High DPS though? ignore most mechanics and win.

Sorry, what? What mechanics can you ignore thanks to high DPS?

[Hesione.9412]

On 5/17/2022 at 5:50 AM, Erise.5614 said:

Honestly, I think the win rate has increased further as I'm seeing far fewer groups than even a month ago and there's been a bit less bite shenanigans.

The comment you respond to is hyperbole and a bit over the top in a few ways. However, they did mess up Soo Won pretty bad in several ways. Yes, tweaking is normal. But they've "fixed a bug with bite" 4 times in a row now. 

And several side factors are not ideal either. Some mechanics. Like certain animations moving the hit marker so far away you can't see it anymore or attack indicators sometimes not showing up on low scalability settings. Though also the fundamental design philosophy behind the fight. I really don't get why ANet tried a DPS check for a meta event at all. It's literally impossible to balance and they knew that years ago. Just this weekend I've been on a map around 5pm CEST. Full subgroups with quick / alac. 1h before it starts. Everything on high. The whole shabam. Failed at ~10%. I was top DPS with ~23k average throughout the entire fight.

The day after, 1AM (so 32 hours later). Squad formed ~30 mins before start. Everything high. Some have full stacks. I was 10th in the squad in terms of DPS with ~26k. We finished with over 10 minutes to spare. Ignoring tail was a squad rule. We never had a single bite and only one or two attacks per phase because of how quickly we burned through the DPS phase.

Meta events like Soo Won can not go for a DPS check. Because no matter the balance, it is necessarily simultaneously a joke to groups experienced players while also being failure prone if the same players randomly tag up. The fight is simultaneously too easy to be any challenge at all. It's a literal joke in certain squads. And too hard at the same time. It's still too inconvenient to just hop in or tag up yourself. Meta event DPS checks can not be balanced to be fun. Squad composition is too important. It's too many people, too little control and too much a departure from other meta events. So why go for DPS checks rather than testing coordination, reaction speed (e.g. dodging or squads splitting up), usage of utility skills (e.g. reflect) and other things that are important in instanced content combat too but aren't directly tied to raw DPS. 

I disagree with how it was phrased by the comment you responded too. There were several positive aspects to the expansion. For example, I'm very positive on Strikes. They too are flawed but they are only flawed in minor details. That can easily be tweaked / fixed or frankly just left in. Overall, all 4 are the best combat encounters in the game in my opinion. And CMs are a worthy step up while being just as good in terms of quality.

But I do hope they draw a lot of lessons from Soo Won and do not try something remotely similar again. If it's a at all substantial DPS check it's gotta be designed around one squad and it's gotta be an instance.

I'd be very positive about meta CMs. It's not about being petty and wanting to deny people who like that kind of challenge. But it's just not suited for the regular open world. 

Reaction speed mechanics are bad for those of us with higher ping, who also tend to have fluctuating ping. A mechanic like the green circles is good for us because it gives us enough time to do the mechanic. 

Things like jumping and dodging can be a nightmare for me. Because of high fluctuating ping, sometimes I have to jump so I land just before a wave hits me, on my screen. Sometimes I have to jump so I jump onto the peak of the wave (on my screen). And, to add to the fun, during the same encounter I may need to do both sets of timed jumps. The most fun is when I am downed by something I never saw coming and didn't know what hit me until I look in my combat log.

So, please, no more fast dodging etc.

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Reaction speed mechanics are bad for those of us with higher ping, who also tend to have fluctuating ping. A mechanic like the green circles is good for us because it gives us enough time to do the mechanic. 

Things like jumping and dodging can be a nightmare for me. Because of high fluctuating ping, sometimes I have to jump so I land just before a wave hits me, on my screen. Sometimes I have to jump so I jump onto the peak of the wave (on my screen). And, to add to the fun, during the same encounter I may need to do both sets of timed jumps. The most fun is when I am downed by something I never saw coming and didn't know what hit me until I look in my combat log.

So, please, no more fast dodging etc.

This can be solved by ANet for certain situations like boss fights where the server can decide far in advance when it should happen, send your client the information early and then verify according to ping whether you jumped. 

Also, I'm not talking about literally every encounter being desigend to test the same skill. Yes, different things will be easier or harder depending on lots of factors. Variety is good. So long as it's not mandatory to grind that's good enough. The existence of variable ping should not necessitate that everything must always be designed in such a way that ping is irrelevant.

Just like I don't think OW should focus on increasing DPS checks. But rather create and keep content requiring it in its own area (e.g. raids or strike CMs). And use OW as jump in, jump content testing all kinds of associated skills that aren't boiling down to pure DPS. 

Like dodging. Or having to use CC. Or, to suggest one entire encounter. So you can properly see what I mean.

Have a fight with 9 attack points. 3 active at a time. Appearing and disappearing a bit like Whack-A-Mole. So players need 3 squads that move around. Balanced around 2k DPS during burn phases. Then at 25%, at 50% and at 75% there's a special phase where one big target appears in the center that everyone needs to attack. It takes 0 damage but needs to receive X amount of attacks. Balanced around being impossible with any weapon or skill combination. But easy if half the squad has quickness. If you fail to deal enough attacks, it recovers 10% HP and will enter the same phase again. If you fail 3 times, in a row, the event fails. Balance the timer in such a way that you can fail about once per phase. Throw in some adds or different types of "moles" during burn phases with different attack patterns. And you have a perfectly fine OW boss encounter. 

It requires some organization, requires knowledge of exactly one boon, has some level of randomness, has no chance to fail due to lack of DPS. But has a real chance to fail if people do not understand the encounter or do not adapt to it at all. And as bonus it teaches more people about quickness as map chat will probably be quite full of people talking about it and requesting it. 

That is the kind of encounter I'd love to see more in OW. 

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

This take is perfect really, cause honestly if this fight launched, at launch, with even 10 minutes longer on the timer. The entire perception around DE would be entirely different and none of this would have ever happened. The fact that we have seen many failed attempts with 100% Successful mechanics is rather telling that the entire fight is essentially an open world dps check. 

You can do the fight perfectly, and fail. No one dying, and fail, tail dying as it spawns, and fail, actually pop people out of bubbles and whirlpools and fail, do the wisp jumps and fail, time the champions perfectly and fail. 

 

High DPS though? ignore most mechanics and win. Its a well designed fight in a sense where if they had given us 50% longer on a timer, it'd have gone down sooo much better. Either that or less health on Soo-Won, considering they need to keep this huge Break Bar buff on her before the raid level squads could even beat her. 

Adding time is not a solution. The fight is built around dealing DPS. If you extend the duration by too much the fight is impossible to fail. 

I criticize the design philosophy of ANet for this encounter. Not the balance.

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Keep up the good fight Erise, I see most others that want the game to improve and continue to exist have either given up or quit by now it seems. Just the people i've put on ignore left here. 

Thank you for the kind words. But to be honest. That's a needlessly negative way of putting it. People are on forums primarily when they have a specific topic to talk about. It's not necessarily giving up if people stay away. It can just be "not caring as much anymore". 

Similarly, people who post here a lot will have heard similar things often and will have heard the same accusations against them often. It's natural they get a bit jaded and make some wrong assumptions when talking. Mute is a good option if it emotionally affects you too much. But there are valid points on the "other" side too.

I disagree with most of them on details. On beliefs, assumptions or personal perceptions. 

But it's not like they are just lying or want the game to get worse or any such silly thing. They are here because they care. Just like me.

It's important to keep that in mind. We are all on the same side. We just have different perspectives and believe different things. At the end of the day, we all just want the game to remain good and if possible get even better.

[Erise.5614]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Sorry, what? What mechanics can you ignore thanks to high DPS?

During Soo Won. Tail (never even appears with high enough damage), CC (may also not show up and doesn't block DPS) and significantly reduce the amount and likelihood of bites. Simultaneous killing of mini bosses is also made irrelevant since you can kill all of them from 100-0 within the time frame given once the first one dies.

All of which only works at very high average map DPS. But is possible. 

In the rest of the game plenty of mechanics in every other piece of content. For example, Gorseval walls.