Switching Untamed to Damage and not Brawler

[Mell.4873]

This a is a sort how to:

Nature's Shield - This is just a barrier at the moment but why not provide an effect for a few second after using a cantrip instead. I'm thinking a spore can be placed and the barrier should be passed on the spores and some boon rip too.

Corrupting Vines - Just let it apply bleed along with converting boons since by itself it us useless PvE.

Vow of Untamed - Just remove the damage reduction entirely, Unleashed player flat 25% increase damage (conditions too) then Unleashed pet flat 25% increase damage. To further make this cool make it a 5 second boon so if you swap unleashed between the player and pet you have 5 seconds to use each others skills rather than camping one of them.

 

I'm really into the idea that you would unleash the player for massive damage then unleash your pet for massive pet damage and go back and forwards. You could even time is so during long cast times like for a Barrage or Whirling Defense you unleash your pet and hit all its cooldowns.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Mell.4873

[anduriell.6280]

So another soulbeast?
Unplayed is not a brawler either.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

So another soulbeast?
Unplayed is not a brawler either.

 

Can be cynical all we want, but it sorta is a brawler by definition.  Double melee untamed works similarly to double melee soulbeast, but could work a lot better with a few tweaks due to the area CC you get with hammer.  

This is not hyperbole either, I've only played it 'seriously' for a few days in WvW and noticed the ability to hang with a group is very similar to how I played soulbeast (aformentioned melee only); but this time bringing CC to the table felt more impactful than even stance share does.

As for OP, I'm not sure I'd change things that drastically.  Just increase the barrier for cantrip activation to maybe 2.5-3k, possibly slightly increase the damage reduction if pet is unleashed / damage ouput if player is unleashed, increase perilous gift to 40ish % in competitive, and make some way for untamed to have passive speed.

Can do some other minor tweaks with traits and maybe speed up a few of the hammer skills a bit (hammer 4 being most needed).  Of course there are the pet squishy issues but mentioned in other topic just make it 15s downed penalty and that's a very easy fix.  

[AEFA.9035]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Corrupting Vines - Just let it apply bleed along with converting boons since by itself it us useless PvE.

Most Unleash pet skill in PVE are useless to enemies with defiance bars, you want skill #2 and #3 (slow and chill) to trigger BEFORE not AFTER you break defiance bar because these two condi help break defiance bar.

 

IMO the whole Untamed trait is pretty balance already, if i were to change something it would be 

 

Restorative Strikes - heal for 5% of strike damage. 

 

This is a placebo trait, a whole number e.g. 1000 shield is better because you can plan and mitigate a damage in all game modes. if this is a Minor trait combined with Vow of the Untamed it would work and tweak Vow's numbers to compensate. 

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, AEFA.9035 said:

Most Unleash pet skill in PVE are useless to enemies with defiance bars, you want skill #2 and #3 (slow and chill) to trigger BEFORE not AFTER you break defiance bar because these two condi help break defiance bar.

 

IMO the whole Untamed trait is pretty balance already, if i were to change something it would be 

 

Restorative Strikes - heal for 5% of strike damage. 

 

This is a placebo trait, a whole number e.g. 1000 shield is better because you can plan and mitigate a damage in all game modes. if this is a Minor trait combined with Vow of the Untamed it would work and tweak Vow's numbers to compensate. 

Well currently the damage is not there and when they change spirits, Untamed will be even more irrelevant since it has 0 boon duration unlike Soulbeast.

Untamed only value is in PvP but even there is not a good brawler, you want the damage to down people and that comes from burst which should include the pet like Soulbeast does right now. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Can be cynical all we want, but it sorta is a brawler by definition.  Double melee untamed works similarly to double melee soulbeast, but could work a lot better with a few tweaks due to the area CC you get with hammer.  

This is not hyperbole either, I've only played it 'seriously' for a few days in WvW and noticed the ability to hang with a group is very similar to how I played soulbeast (aformentioned melee only); but this time bringing CC to the table felt more impactful than even stance share does.

As for OP, I'm not sure I'd change things that drastically.  Just increase the barrier for cantrip activation to maybe 2.5-3k, possibly slightly increase the damage reduction if pet is unleashed / damage ouput if player is unleashed, increase perilous gift to 40ish % in competitive, and make some way for untamed to have passive speed.

Can do some other minor tweaks with traits and maybe speed up a few of the hammer skills a bit (hammer 4 being most needed).  Of course there are the pet squishy issues but mentioned in other topic just make it 15s downed penalty and that's a very easy fix.  

I feel like with any changes to core like the spirit rework will only fuel the irrelevance of Untamed. I mean when spirits pulse alacrity how will that help Untamed. 

What would help ranger as a whole is Untamed be the top sustain, tanky dps and Soulbeast be a burst, boon support. 

[BumboJumbo.1308]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well currently the damage is not there and when they change spirits, Untamed will be even more irrelevant since it has 0 boon duration unlike Soulbeast.

Untamed only value is in PvP but even there is not a good brawler, you want the damage to down people and that comes from burst which should include the pet like Soulbeast does right now. 

"...Untamed will be even more irrelevant since it has 0 boon duration unlike Soulbeast."

Untamed has a trait that reduces all cooldowns by 4 seconds when you use hard crowd control. If anything, untamed becomes relevant because you can spam boons with little to no boon duration. 

Also, yes, untamed right now is bad, literally no one disagrees. You can't base the performance of untamed right now to the hypothetical world that revamped spirits on  soulbeast or druid perform better. People know that soulbeast and druid perform well right now because they're a complete package. So of course people will say that spirits will work better on soulbeast and druid. Untamed isn't complete because spirits didn't get its revamp on the day of the expansion, which was due to "...time constraints and work on new elite specializations...". Untamed has a lot to offer, but until it gets the oomph from spirits, it'll be in the bin.

That being said, Anet is revamping spirits to give boons in about 2 months. No one has any idea what the revamp looks like other than it'll give boons (with confirmed alacrity). I mean, we can take an educated guess on performance for the 3 elite specs but not with 100% certainty.

[Mell.4873]

44 minutes ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

"...Untamed will be even more irrelevant since it has 0 boon duration unlike Soulbeast."

Untamed has a trait that reduces all cooldowns by 4 seconds when you use hard crowd control. If anything, untamed becomes relevant because you can spam boons with little to no boon duration. 

Also, yes, untamed right now is bad, literally no one disagrees. You can't base the performance of untamed right now to the hypothetical world that revamped spirits on  soulbeast or druid perform better. People know that soulbeast and druid perform well right now because they're a complete package. So of course people will say that spirits will work better on soulbeast and druid. Untamed isn't complete because spirits didn't get its revamp on the day of the expansion, which was due to "...time constraints and work on new elite specializations...". Untamed has a lot to offer, but until it gets the oomph from spirits, it'll be in the bin.

That being said, Anet is revamping spirits to give boons in about 2 months. No one has any idea what the revamp looks like other than it'll give boons (with confirmed alacrity). I mean, we can take an educated guess on performance for the 3 elite specs but not with 100% certainty.

I think the post said the revamp will be on the 28th of June. 

I mean we shall see, untamed needs something other than just relying on CC to lower cooldowns which is strong but Ranger in general is not a CC heavy class. Even less so for aoe CC which will be where the trait is the strongest. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Mell.4873

[InsaneQR.7412]

Tbh i think what holds untamed back is the clunky gameplay, the lack of stability (and other bruising tools? and that soulbeast is just better in 90% of the cases except CC.

The hammer needs streamlining and one form which has best of both worlds. Damage and CC.

Ambushes should trigger after passing the goo, regardless of direction. Make unleash a 5s CD but let the ambushes trigger always when passing with no ICD. 

Give us the option to make one pet skill autocast. Give core ranger Untameds full pet control as well. Remove it on druid (and revert the stat reduction for that matter). Improve the traits and give us more stab and other defensive tools. Lastly. I think 2 pets, 2 weaponsets & two modes are to much to be handled fluently. Something needs to happen to improve the flow of the spec.

 

[BumboJumbo.1308]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think the post said the revamp will be on the 28th of June. 

I mean we shall see, untamed needs something other than just relying on CC to lower cooldowns which is strong but Ranger in general is not a CC heavy class. Even less so for aoe CC which will be where the trait is the strongest. 

I do agree that in general ranger isn't a hard crowd control heavy class in terms of triggering fervant force. But untamed does give a hammer with 3 hard crowd control strikes to lower cooldowns by a total of 12 seconds (overbearing smash x2, and thump x1). Plus, ranger can add on sword and offhand axe for an extra 2 hard crowd control strikes (deft strike x1, and path of scars x1). On top of that you can use exploding spores for an extra cc.

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

I do agree that in general ranger isn't a hard crowd control heavy class in terms of triggering fervant force. But untamed does give a hammer with 3 hard crowd control strikes to lower cooldowns by a total of 12 seconds (overbearing smash x2, and thump x1). Plus, ranger can add on sword and offhand axe for an extra 2 hard crowd control strikes (deft strike x1, and path of scars x1). On top of that you can use exploding spores for an extra cc.

I don't use the hammer at all for PvE rather i use the longbow, shortbow and axe. Each have 1 cc which is okay but again its not going to fuel a boon build especially for any end-game content.

[Lazze.9870]

Would have been better to switch untamed from

near-useless

to

petless.

Then the ideas they had for the spec could actually work in a realistic setting.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Would have been better to switch untamed from

near-useless

to

petless.

Then the ideas they had for the spec could actually work in a realistic setting.

Well wouldn't that just be a Soulbeast, I mean all of the utility interactions would be same so what would the difference be?

Soulbeast vs Soulbeast would just be silly.

 

The real answer is you give the pet some meaningful damage since now it has a teleport. Imagine unleashing your pet for a 5 second buff (like I suggested) then switch to unleashing yourself and using the pet attacks at increased damage for example a Drake tail swipe.

[Lazze.9870]

4 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well wouldn't that just be a Soulbeast, I mean all of the utility interactions would be same so what would the difference be?

No.

Unless you have the imagination of a rock.

Dude, they literally gave thief a shroud and engineer the pet mechanic, and you're telling me a petless ranger has to be exactly like soulbeast? 

Why do I even.. 

4 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

The real answer is you give the pet some meaningful damage since now it has a teleport.

No, the real answer is not to make the spec rely more on an AI that was subpar in 2012 and hasn't improved since.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Mell.4873]

4 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

No.

Unless you have the imagination of a rock.

Dude, they literally gave thief a shroud and engineer the pet mechanic, and you're telling me a petless ranger has to be exactly like soulbeast? 

Why do I even.. 

No, the real answer is not to make the spec rely more on an AI that was subpar in 2012 and hasn't improved since.

Would it not be exactly the same????

I mean all the command abilities would apply to yourself, all the beastmastery traits would apply to yourself.

Where would the pet go?? oh i know maybe it merges without and you get some bonus stats?

 

I mean this is just silly what would replace your pet, at least suggest something new. Some people had the idea you transform into the pet, but again same problem with command skills etc...

[Lazze.9870]

6 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Would it not be exactly the same????

Some interactions would probably be similar out of necessity, again, depends on what they do.

Who gives a kitten if the new mechanic, skills and weapon offers a completely different playstyle.

I have had this argument before, and I'm not doing it again. There are PLENTY of ways to make a petless ranger without making it a second soulbeast.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Mell.4873]

5 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Some interactions would probably be similar out of necessity, again, depends on what they do.

Who gives a kitten if the new mechanic, skills and weapon offers a completely different playstyle

Untamed did or at least I hope they do by buffing the pet damage in PvE. I could see some crazy builds if we got a flat 25% increase along with "sic em"s 50%.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Lazze.9870]

2 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Untamed did or at least I hope they do by buffing the pet damage in PvE. I could see some crazy builds if we got a flat 25% increase along with "sic em"s 50%

You know, it's funny how you are afraid of a soulbeast 2.0, when your suggestion is just core ranger on stereoids and a couple of extra button clicks.

Untamed had massive potential in WvW if done right. Your "fix" isn't helping, it's a PvE bandaid.

Then again, it's Anet, so PvE bandaid is problably good enough for them.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

You know, it's funny how you are afraid of a soulbeast 2.0, when your suggestion is just core ranger on stereoids and a couple of extra button clicks.

Untamed had massive potential in WvW if done right. Your "fix" isn't helping, it's a PvE bandaid.

Then again, it's Anet, so PvE bandaid is problably good enough for them.

I already use it WvW so I don't want to see any changes there really. Maybe make the pet retreat a teleport or something, or lower the pet swap cooldown since we can't instant rez like with Soulbeast on a 20 sec cooldown. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I feel like with any changes to core like the spirit rework will only fuel the irrelevance of Untamed. I mean when spirits pulse alacrity how will that help Untamed. 

What would help ranger as a whole is Untamed be the top sustain, tanky dps and Soulbeast be a burst, boon support. 

 

I think it'd depend on how the rework is done.  If spirits work like gyros or are otherwise unkillable / have defiance bars or something, then in competitive it immediately benefits untamed the most because of the hammer alone.  

You could basically then not even need the CD reduction trait because you can just lay a spirit down with alacrity and get similar return on investment with better group potential.  

This is all coming from my perspective as a nearly full melee user though.  I think rangers ranged options are entirely lacking in both PvE and WvW, especially now that even ranger itself has two projectile hate bubbles, and three if you run untamed in addition to OH axe.  

Edited April 18, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[AEFA.9035]

9 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

"...Untamed will be even more irrelevant since it has 0 boon duration unlike Soulbeast."

Untamed has a trait that reduces all cooldowns by 4 seconds when you use hard crowd control. If anything, untamed becomes relevant because you can spam boons with little to no boon duration. 

Also, yes, untamed right now is bad, literally no one disagrees. You can't base the performance of untamed right now to the hypothetical world that revamped spirits on  soulbeast or druid perform better. People know that soulbeast and druid perform well right now because they're a complete package. So of course people will say that spirits will work better on soulbeast and druid. Untamed isn't complete because spirits didn't get its revamp on the day of the expansion, which was due to "...time constraints and work on new elite specializations...". Untamed has a lot to offer, but until it gets the oomph from spirits, it'll be in the bin.

That being said, Anet is revamping spirits to give boons in about 2 months. No one has any idea what the revamp looks like other than it'll give boons (with confirmed alacrity). I mean, we can take an educated guess on performance for the 3 elite specs but not with 100% certainty.

I think the problem with the game right now is that professions has easy access to boons. The mind set of everyone right now is "if this spec CANT bring XYZ boons, kick."or "this spec is better because boon spam" every expansion ANet has to add flavour to each spec to sell the game.

 

What i think ANet should do is to limit easy access to boons or give us more access to removals, if you can easily apply these boons every 10s then a player should be able to remove them within that same amount of time as well. Same goes for PVE bosses, boon strip removal mechanic should be a thing. 

 

Untamed has good counter to every thing that is in game right now, pvp and pve. Hard CC rotation, boon strip, and projectile bubble. It's just that most players want big numbers popping everywhere since its a new Spec 😂😂😂

[Lazze.9870]

On 4/18/2022 at 2:41 PM, Mell.4873 said:

I already use it WvW so I don't want to see any changes there really.

Okay, I obviously have to clarify everything I say.

It had huge potential for large scale WvW. And wether you're using it or not, doesn't change the fact that the potential is wasted and that it will never see any more play in that kind of content than soulbeast or druid already does.

I play untamed in wvw as well for the variety. Do I play it when I play with my guild in organized fights? No. If you fail to see that distinction, then well, whatever.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Puck.3697]

On 4/18/2022 at 12:16 PM, Mell.4873 said:

Would it not be exactly the same????

I mean all the command abilities would apply to yourself, all the beastmastery traits would apply to yourself.

Where would the pet go?? oh i know maybe it merges without and you get some bonus stats?

 

I mean this is just silly what would replace your pet, at least suggest something new. Some people had the idea you transform into the pet, but again same problem with command skills etc...

they coulda done Petless

and finally given us a Shapeshifter. So we're able to take the form of Several Animals.

 

[Mell.4873]

On 4/24/2022 at 5:04 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

they coulda done Petless

and finally given us a Shapeshifter. So we're able to take the form of Several Animals.

 

Again is just Soulbeast but with no weapons, unless you animal form had a cooldown but then its not exactly petless.

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Again is just Soulbeast but with no weapons, unless you animal form had a cooldown but then its not exactly petless.

How would a ahapeshifter be soulbeast? 

Loss weapon swap lose the pet entirely. gain the ability to choose 4 animals, each on a general weapon swap. 

Be basically like attunement, with options. 

Each animal has 5 abilities. 

Be less like soulbeast then untamed is core lol 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Daddy.8125