Druid Pets

[Yogurt Goblin.5934]

I wonder if its time to revert the nerf on Druid Pets?

It would make PvE more enjoyable for druids and I'm sure that in more high-end content, druid pets aren't exactly contributing any significant dps or tanking.

Obviously if this revert would mean PvP and WvW druids running rampant, it might be best to do a game mode balance on this.

[GhandiBot.6257]

Thought of this the other day in pvp. 

 

The dmg output and aoe clutter (as a pvper) is too much for a pet to sustain and can be killed easily. 

 

I think the revert wouldn't make during viable in pvp (not sure about other game modes) but it's a decent start.

Edited April 25, 2022 by GhandiBot.6257

[Mardane.8735]

I'm up for anything to make pve more enjoyable on a druid since staff is just horrible for it. I've tried different builds and comboing with different weapons and it's just clunky and makes killing so slow it's painful.   Using it just for ancient seeds bleeds is such a waste when this weapon could have been so much more fun as a main pve weapon with some group healing (like of like Ele water skills or a Rift Chloromancer).  If they won't raise the damage a bit on the staff, at least have it where we can spec more damage into the pet. Like it was mentioned, the pets die so easily in pvp I don't see that making a whole lot of difference there.

[Wolfey.3407]

Remember the Ranger Code: We're not allowed to have anything nice.  😭

 

I hope it will be reverted though... it is rather sad seeing my  pets get nuked instantly... At this point, I would almost prefer they were removed and druids are compensated stat wise. 

[Dadnir.5038]

I doubt reverting the stats nerf on the druid's pet is the proper solution to the druid issue.

Objectively, the druid's issue is that it's to focused on healing. It's the root behind the nerf to the pet just like it's the root behind the nerfs to it's ability to heal (because it was abused for self-healing, meaning that it had impressive sustain and such thing is hated by the sPvP community).

That said, they could revert the stats nerf of the pet if they changed the F2 in such a way that instead of the regular F2, you got only 5 F2 possible:

- Ferocious pet: Gleaming star: Your pet shine brightly, granting Fury (5s) and 3 might (10s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Deadly pet: Cursed constellation: Your pet shine brightly, granting resistance (5s) and resolution (5s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Supportive pet: Cosmic warmth: Your pet shine brightly, granting regeneration (5s) and healing (500) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Versatile pet: Swift aerolit: Your pet shine brightly, granting swiftness (10s) and superspeed (2s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Stout pet: Resilient asteroid: Your pet shine brightly, granting protection (5s) and vigor (5s) to nearby allies CD 25s.

With such a change, the druid would lose what made his pet "strong" enough to deserve a stats nerf. And it wouldn't need stellar amount of work to do...

Edited April 30, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Duglaive.5236]

8 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I doubt reverting the stats nerf on the druid's pet is the proper solution to the druid issue.

Objectively, the druid's issue is that it's to focused on healing. It's the root behind the nerf to the pet just like it's the root behind the nerfs to it's ability to heal (because it was abused for self-healing, meaning that it had impressive sustain and such thing is hated by the sPvP community).

That said, they could revert the stats nerf of the pet if they changed the F2 in such a way that instead of the regular F2, you got only 5 F2 possible:

- Ferocious pet: Gleaming star: Your pet shine brightly, granting Fury (5s) and 3 might (10s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Deadly pet: Cursed constellation: Your pet shine brightly, granting resistance (5s) and resolution (5s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Supportive pet: Cosmic warmth: Your pet shine brightly, granting regeneration (5s) and healing (500) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Versatile pet: Swift aerolit: Your pet shine brightly, granting swiftness (10s) and superspeed (2s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Stout pet: Resilient asteroid: Your pet shine brightly, granting protection (5s) and vigor (5s) to nearby allies CD 25s.

With such a change, the druid would lose what made his pet "strong" enough to deserve a stats nerf. And it wouldn't need stellar amount of work to do...

 

Interesting ideas, and possibly good ones; though this would be awful for how I play my Druid. Still, could be great for the heal/support inclined. Which, admittedly, is likely the majority of Druid players.

 

That said, please, just please, a firm No to the "shine brightly" part. There is already so much - far too much imo - glow, sparkle, and shine in this game that I for one sure don't want to see my pet shining as well.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Duglaive.5236

[Dadnir.5038]

13 minutes ago, Duglaive.5236 said:

 

Interesting ideas, and possibly good ones; though this would be awful for how I play my Druid. Still, could be great for the heal/support inclined.

 

That said, please, just please, a firm No to the "shine brightly" part. There is already so much - far too much imo - glow, sparkle, and shine in this game that I for one sure don't want to see my pet shining as well.

The shine brightly is just to point out that there is no need for more animation than just a change of color for the pet. I certainly don't want those skills to be yet another 2s cast due to rigid animation crap.

[Duglaive.5236]

20 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The shine brightly is just to point out that there is no need for more animation than just a change of color for the pet. I certainly don't want those skills to be yet another 2s cast due to rigid animation crap.

 

Ah, understood.

[Zyreva.1078]

Those few boons wouldn't be worthin giving up something like a smoke field. A few boons also wouldn't make druid a decent PvP support. Even more so when they are tied to a pet that can still die very easily in grp combat.

The main problem of druid as PvP support (besides a lack of relevant boons) is the design of the skills. Tiny radius with casttime or delay just doesn't work well in the dynamic and very movement heavy combat. You basically have to ask your allies to stop moving in oder to land something like seed of life.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Don't think it matters, as for competitive, pets aren't used for anything on Druid besides CC to chain into Ancient Seeds.  If PvE, then pets are more breakbar breaking tools, that's it.

The thing with Druid is its role was removed after PoF.  Had Firebrands, Scrappers, and Tempest supports running wild for the past 5 years but Druid gets nerfed for being 'too sustainy'.  

I say leave it alone, as especially after this spirit rework don't need more random nerfs because sPvP cries again.  

 

[Dadnir.5038]

12 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Those few boons wouldn't be worthin giving up something like a smoke field. A few boons also wouldn't make druid a decent PvP support. Even more so when they are tied to a pet that can still die very easily in grp combat.

That wasn't the goal of the suggestion either.

The suggestion was merely showing what trade off would be needed to unnerf the pet within the thematic of the druid. Nothing more, nothing less.

In no way did I expect such change to "fix" druid in any gamemode, and especially not in sPvP.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 4/30/2022 at 10:05 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I doubt reverting the stats nerf on the druid's pet is the proper solution to the druid issue.

Objectively, the druid's issue is that it's to focused on healing. It's the root behind the nerf to the pet just like it's the root behind the nerfs to it's ability to heal (because it was abused for self-healing, meaning that it had impressive sustain and such thing is hated by the sPvP community).

That said, they could revert the stats nerf of the pet if they changed the F2 in such a way that instead of the regular F2, you got only 5 F2 possible:

- Ferocious pet: Gleaming star: Your pet shine brightly, granting Fury (5s) and 3 might (10s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Deadly pet: Cursed constellation: Your pet shine brightly, granting resistance (5s) and resolution (5s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Supportive pet: Cosmic warmth: Your pet shine brightly, granting regeneration (5s) and healing (500) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Versatile pet: Swift aerolit: Your pet shine brightly, granting swiftness (10s) and superspeed (2s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Stout pet: Resilient asteroid: Your pet shine brightly, granting protection (5s) and vigor (5s) to nearby allies CD 25s.

With such a change, the druid would lose what made his pet "strong" enough to deserve a stats nerf. And it wouldn't need stellar amount of work to do...

I could see this (soft rework) happening if I didn't believe the next ranger e-spec will be focusing on a more command-esque pet gameplay. With a rifle equipped.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

On 4/30/2022 at 3:05 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I doubt reverting the stats nerf on the druid's pet is the proper solution to the druid issue.

Objectively, the druid's issue is that it's to focused on healing. It's the root behind the nerf to the pet just like it's the root behind the nerfs to it's ability to heal (because it was abused for self-healing, meaning that it had impressive sustain and such thing is hated by the sPvP community).

That said, they could revert the stats nerf of the pet if they changed the F2 in such a way that instead of the regular F2, you got only 5 F2 possible:

- Ferocious pet: Gleaming star: Your pet shine brightly, granting Fury (5s) and 3 might (10s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Deadly pet: Cursed constellation: Your pet shine brightly, granting resistance (5s) and resolution (5s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Supportive pet: Cosmic warmth: Your pet shine brightly, granting regeneration (5s) and healing (500) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Versatile pet: Swift aerolit: Your pet shine brightly, granting swiftness (10s) and superspeed (2s) to nearby allies. CD 25s.

- Stout pet: Resilient asteroid: Your pet shine brightly, granting protection (5s) and vigor (5s) to nearby allies CD 25s.

With such a change, the druid would lose what made his pet "strong" enough to deserve a stats nerf. And it wouldn't need stellar amount of work to do...

These boons aren't really that useful in 90% of pve play, where druid currently shines. If druid were to receive a rework that would let it function better everywhere, maybe. But they're either too weak or just flat out not relevant. I'd like to keep my CC on my wyvern and my other, more relevant utilities on things like condi cleanse with brown bear or the occasional jacaranda immob.

[Dadnir.5038]

28 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

These boons aren't really that useful in 90% of pve play, where druid currently shines. If druid were to receive a rework that would let it function better everywhere, maybe. But they're either too weak or just flat out not relevant. I'd like to keep my CC on my wyvern and my other, more relevant utilities on things like condi cleanse with brown bear or the occasional jacaranda immob.

 

On 5/1/2022 at 9:47 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

That wasn't the goal of the suggestion either.

The suggestion was merely showing what trade off would be needed to unnerf the pet within the thematic of the druid. Nothing more, nothing less.

In no way did I expect such change to "fix" druid in any gamemode, and especially not in sPvP.

 

[Lazze.9870]

On 4/30/2022 at 9:05 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Objectively, the druid's issue is that it's to focused on healing. It's the root behind the nerf to the pet just like it's the root behind the nerfs to it's ability to heal (because it was abused for self-healing, meaning that it had impressive sustain and such thing is hated by the sPvP community).

Objectively? Eh, no. Not even close. The objective fact is that it can't even function as a healer in 2/3 game modes. Anet doesn't even mention it when they talk about support builds in PvP.

Keeping that focus doesn't immediately return druid to a state of overpowered self-sustain if they just go about it correctly. Druid's healing was nerfed long before they shifted the PvP balance in favor of outgoing healing. It is the one spec that has been completely left out when they have discussed balance in terms of retaining outgoing healing without making the build itself a self-sustaining monster. Druid has simply had its healing nerfed to a point where it is basically unaffected by any of the remaining healing power amulets, and on top of that it has seen zero changes to its outgoing healing potential. It currently has two traits for it, one is capped at 10 %, nerfed from 20 % (and not even a flat one, it still has the stacking buff, arguably unecessary at this point). Ele in comparison gets a flat 15 % all the time from Water. The other is the massive 50 % modifier that only applies to the avatar, and PvP happens to be the area where the avatar is gated the most with a hefty 20s cooldown on top of the astral force requirement. I'd suggesting making the minor trait a static 10 % and have the GM trait add another 10 % or so all the time, doubling it to 20 % while in the avatar. Add the outgoing healing sigil and you'd have a 30-40 % outgoing healing modifier through trait and sigil choices without affecting its sustain.

As for the actual issue(s). The issue isn't being too focused on healing. The first issue is that the staff, the traits related to healing and avatar make it clunkier to function as an actual support relatively to other support builds (the latter both suffering from being too heavy gated and from an abysmal #1 skill). Being too focused on healing is not the issue when the primary goal of the elite spec was to give ranger a support option, mainly healing because that's what the base class does the worst. It already had buff application through spirits and boons. Healing is exactly what should be its main focus. Not necessarily the only focus, but certainly the primary focus.

The second issue is how they handled the pet. Everything from how they settled on it basically remaining the same as the core ranger mechanic to how they went about nerfing it. It should either have been completely removed in some way or another (unkillable spirit animals with auras or what-have-you), or have its stats altered (instead of a flat nerf) to boost support stats in favor of offensive stats with perhaps a new F2 (these could be based on archtypes) because the current pets in general are a terrible supplement to a support elite spec. The latter option is probably the easier one considering how they dug themselves a hole with the core ranger mechanic, the beastmatery trait line and all the other pet effects sprinkled throughout the class.

For PvE specifically it should have comparable dps to other support builds. How you'd handle that depends entirely on what other changes you'd make, but it shouldn't be through altering traits to provide a damage option (like having the bottom trait line being damage focused, or the GM traits determine the skills of the avatar). The simpler way of doing it is to 1) have the staff scale better with power and add a couple of conditions to allow a hybrid damage/healer without the damage dropping substantially when using the staff, and 2) leviate the beforementioned double gated avatar mechanic so that it all flows better.

As for OP's question; revert? I'd prefer a rework of the druid pet, but at least a simple revert would add some damage and some much needed sustain to the pets.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Objectively? Eh, no. Not even close. The objective fact is that it can't even function as a healer in 2/3 game modes.

That simply isn't true. If you're objective is to heal with druid and you build for it, you'll be succesfull at healing with him in every game mode. You just have to adapt your gameplay for each gamemode, however it also mean hitting foes like a wet noddle. Also you might be less effective out of the avatar but that doesn't mean you don't heal and cleanse well.

Now, if what you wanted you say that the "objective truth" is that other healers are more attractive than druid in 2/3rd of the game, I 100% back you up.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

That simply isn't true. If you're objective is to heal with druid and you build for it, you'll be succesfull at healing with him in every game mode. You just have to adapt your gameplay for each gamemode, however it also mean hitting foes like a wet noddle. Also you might be less effective out of the avatar but that doesn't mean you don't heal and cleanse well.

Now, if what you wanted you say that the "objective truth" is that other healers are more attractive than druid in 2/3rd of the game, I 100% back you up.

 

Every game mode? Maybe fractals or raids, some instanced PvE stuff.

Not in WvW or PvP though.  If competitive success is the claim I'd definitley be interested in some gameplay to back that one up.  I mean, maybe after the spirit rework if we're extremely lucky, but definitely not now.  

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Every game mode? Maybe fractals or raids, some instanced PvE stuff.

Not in WvW or PvP though.  If competitive success is the claim I'd definitley be interested in some gameplay to back that one up.  I mean, maybe after the spirit rework if we're extremely lucky, but definitely not now.  

Spirit change won't do anything in sPvP/WvW. Like I said in what you quote, the druid is simply a less interesting alternative as a healer in WvW and PvP but it soesn't mean that he isn't a good healer there. People just don't give it a chance because "It's not meta, so it's obviously bad".

The reason druid is not a meta healer in PvP/WvW is because other healers either affect a wider area, offer group stability or boon corruption. The little extra of the druid would be control (soft and hard) but that isn't as attractive an option than the other options.

As for "how to have heals as strong as other healer in PvP", it is as simple as using runes of the druid which almost double your healing power after using a glyph (and yes it's more effective than the runesets that increase healing output by a %age).

[Zyreva.1078]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Spirit change won't do anything in sPvP/WvW. Like I said in what you quote, the druid is simply a less interesting alternative as a healer in WvW and PvP but it soesn't mean that he isn't a good healer there. People just don't give it a chance because "It's not meta, so it's obviously bad".

It is bad as PvP support tho. Always has been. Even when the spec was good overall, it was primarily played as duelist with some added teamfight utility, but never as pure support (at higher lvls anyway).

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The reason druid is not a meta healer in PvP/WvW is because other healers either affect a wider area, offer group stability or boon corruption. The little extra of the druid would be control (soft and hard) but that isn't as attractive an option than the other options.

And this is why.

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

As for "how to have heals as strong as other healer in PvP", it is as simple as using runes of the druid which almost double your healing power after using a glyph (and yes it's more effective than the runesets that increase healing output by a %age).

Healing numbers aren't what's holding druid back as support, so bigger numbers don't change anything. Apart from that 500 more healing power isn't anywhere close to doubling your healing output, the proc also has low duration and it forces you into running glyphs which are underwhelming. Monk, dwayna or defensive runes are much better without doubt.