REWARDS at endgame

[Fuchslein.8639]

1 hour ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

That's the problem with this whole discussion: everyone of us sees a disproportionate amount of like-minded players simply because those are the players interacting with the same kind of content we do.

 

Several people, in this thread and others, have challenged the opinion (and it is just that: an opinion) that the majority of players are reward-driven. If you base your main argument on anecdotal evidence (as in: the players you see in game, that like to play similarly to you), then I'm sorry to say that it's not much of an argument.

 

I'm obviously playing with different interests and goals than you, because what I see in game doesn't support your argument of "most players are reward-driven" at all. I do however support the opinion that this game has a lot of systems attracting the exploration-driven players and that it's one of the game's strengths, but at the same time that makes it harder to make the game reward-centric (since, as has been explained before, long-lasting rewards are bound to be grindy, which is a sure way to tick of a large part of the exploration-driven playerbase).

So how is it that Maps like HOT are Full to every Hour i go there. Where as POF, every time i go to an meta when it times comes up i rarly see people there or even LFG's. Only times i see people in POF are, when Meta Trains are up, who take the fast POF events with the most rewards. On this account, i didn't could do the big Meta from POF because no one does it, what is just crazy to me.

This was my question, and no one from you answerd this to me yet. This has nothing to do, that i only see like-minded people, this is a fact you see everyday ingame. In fact, i see probaly less players than other, because of my Settings and even then HOT-Maps are always full when a meta strikes. Maps like Tarir and Chak even create several Maps's with LFG's, squad and Commanders while POF?

I dont need statistic when i have Eyes and can read.

Also, sorry, but this Forum is bias as kitten. As one other person here said, you can't talk about raids whitout people just hating for the hate-factor. So your "chalenging ones opinion" in my eyes look very different then in your eyes. Because, yes, we are different. I'am an Raider, i love gw2 exploration and stuff, but also probaly for other factors than you love.

But this has nothing to do with the fact that content, who gives bad rewards is driven to fail. Lets take Dungeons. As anet took the good rewards from them they where "dead". We see Threads about this every now an then and you can see it in the LFG. Of course there are players who do them for fun. Heck, i do them for fun with my guild and also in 2-team with a friend. But this changes nothing about the popularity of this content who got down as anet took down the rewards.

And i don't say Raid-Rewards are bad. I just say, it's bad to restrict it to 1 time a week. Because this is another point i made, no one of you really answerd. What would happen, if you put all pve-meta on a 1 time per week strike?

Edited June 6, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Astralporing.1957]

22 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

So how is it that Maps like HOT are Full to every Hour i go there.

Yes. That's a good question. Why HoT metas are often full of players, when Drizzlewood offers a much higher reward per effort ratio?

[Fuchslein.8639]

8 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. That's a good question. Why HoT metas are often full of players, when Drizzlewood offers a much higher reward per effort ratio?

I don't know what you are play, but when the big boi is up on Drizzlewood, the LFG is full like Tarir and co.

My comparison from HOT to POF was just that, an example, an comparison about how reward driven this game actually is.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

I don't know what you are play, but when the big boi is up on Drizzlewood, the LFG is full like Tarir and co.

My comparison from HOT to POF was just that, an example, an comparison about how reward driven this game actually is.

I guess you missed the point. What those people doing in HoT if they could be doing Drizzle at the same time for better rewards? It's definitely not due to there not being a meta in drizzle at the moment, because you can do it all day long with no downtime.

So, maybe those players in HoT are not so reward-driven, and would rather play something that they feel is nicer while still offers some decent level of rewards?

Hint: people don't do PoF not due to lack of rewards . Thy don't do PoF metas primarily due to how annoying they are

[Fuchslein.8639]

17 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I guess you missed the point. What those people doing in HoT if they could be doing Drizzle at the same time for better rewards? It's definitely not due to there not being a meta in drizzle at the moment, because you can do it all day long with no downtime.

So, maybe those players in HoT are not so reward-driven, and would rather play something that they feel is nicer while still offers some decent level of rewards?

Hint: people don't do PoF not due to lack of rewards . Thy don't do PoF metas primarily due to how annoying they are

Are you aware that drizzlewood has no actually event-timer? There has a lot to be done, so people can hop on and do the big event? Pls correct me if i'm wrong. This was people who farm effectifly tell me why meta-trains have a specific route.
Drizzlewood, in your eyes, might give good rewards. But from a point of effenciency it's not true. It's long and tedious. And no, a lot of POF metas are also just hop in and kill. This is why they are included in meta-trains. But outside of these organized trains, no one does them like the HOT events. And as far as i know, because of rewards. They give less rewards for the same time.

Also here, correct me if i'm wrong. I'm speaking from experience from friend who do said meta-trains and play very efficient. But no one is perfect.

But even so. GW2 has a ton of events, and which events get played the most? 🙂

Edited June 6, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Fuchslein.8639]

Also when you are so confident about this, why is my question if we make the game just like raids a 1-time per week thing a strawmen?

When you are so confident, why not also be confident in the playerbase that gw2 would drive with less rewards for everyone and not just a small group.

Could be so simple, could be so fair. But nah, just say its fine because i don't play or like the content, so this content does not need fair rewards.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Rogue.8235]

2 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Also when you are so confident about this, why is my question if we make the game just like raids a 1-time per week thing a strawmen?

When you are so confident, why not also be confident in the playerbase that gw2 would drive with less rewards for everyone and not just a small group.

Could be so simple, could be so fair. But nah, just say its fine because i don't play or like the content, so this content does not need fair rewards.

 

This literally makes zero sense.  There are words strung together in a sentence format, but the sentences have no meaning.

What does making the entire game like a raid have anything to do with whether the game should be designed for rewards over other content?  There is zero logic behind this.

It wasn't a question, it was a statement.  It's a strawman because you invented an argument that no one brought up, and countered it as if someone else brought it up.  You invented a problem and solution in the same paragraph that no one considers to be relevant to any of the points we're making.  That's what a strawman fallacy is and that is what you did.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Are you aware that drizzlewood has no actually event-timer? There has a lot to be done, so people can hop on and do the big event? Pls correct me if i'm wrong. This was people who farm effectifly tell me why meta-trains have a specific route.
Drizzlewood, in your eyes, might give good rewards. But from a point of effenciency it's not true. It's long and tedious. And no, a lot of POF metas are also just hop in and kill. This is why they are included in meta-trains. But outside of these organized trains, no one does them like the HOT events. And as far as i know, because of rewards. They give less rewards for the same time.

Also here, correct me if i'm wrong. I'm speaking from experience from friend who do said meta-trains and play very efficient. But no one is perfect.

But even so. GW2 has a ton of events, and which events get played the most? 🙂

You don't do Drizzle much, i guess? Hint: it is not like the HoT metas where you get most rewards at the end. You get rewarded all the time. So, it's easy to just jump in and out whenever you want.

Drizzle is around the top reward-wise whether you play most efficiently or not.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Drizzle is around the top reward-wise whether you play most efficiently or not.

Nice, please share the specific numbers behind this sentence.

[Ashen.2907]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:43 AM, Rogue.8235 said:

The problem with playing games simply for the rewards, is that once you get the rewards, that's it.  The solution of increasing rewards is not a viable solution.  Again, once people get the new rewards, that's it.  There will never be a reward-centric solution that will last indefinitely, because reward-centric players will attain it and ask for more.  

This is why you can't really design a game around reward-centric players.  There is no infinite replayability because the player's care only for rewards, that they will attain, and care for nothing else.  The replayability of other games is the gameplay itself.  For example, fighting games aren't about unlocking rewards, but about mastering characters and the actual fight mechanics of the game.  Here, GW2 does have replayability with it's combat mechanics, ability to play all professions in many ways, and many ways to play the game with each profession.  However, GW2 players that are only concerned with grinding for stuff will always burnout or reach the end-goal.  Without enjoyment of the gameplay itself, there is no way to retain these players.  The only way is to create an infinite pool of "stuff" for these players to chase.  This is not a viable solution because dev time is a finite resource.  

 

This is why I disagree with any call to make things more rewarding to "increase engame population."  It won't create a lasting population and cannot sustain population growth.  Again, this is because players will attain the rewards and "have nothing else to do" because there are no other new rewards to chase.  Reward-centric players are not a market segment that you can keep without resorting to extreme levels of grind, which is complained about anyways.

 

 

To be fair, players who engage with content solely for the fun can, and generally do, run into the same problem as those who play for the rewards. Eventually repeating the same strike mission, world boss, dungeon, or meta chain will stop being fun for a given player.

The difference is that it is much easier to add new rewards to old comtent than it is to make that content fun again for people who are bored of it from having already played it dozens or more times.

 

All of that said, I think that it is a mix of fun and rewarding that are necessary for content to have any real longevity.

[Fuchslein.8639]

17 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You don't do Drizzle much, i guess? Hint: it is not like the HoT metas where you get most rewards at the end. You get rewarded all the time. So, it's easy to just jump in and out whenever you want.

Drizzle is around the top reward-wise whether you play most efficiently or not.

But drizzle also gets played. It gets played a ton, so what do you want from me oO.

 

Again my point Was not that people only play hot. My point was that people are driven to the most rewarding content. We have a ton of maps who are empty, because anet made bad decision about time and rewards.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Fuchslein.8639]

18 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

This literally makes zero sense.  There are words strung together in a sentence format, but the sentences have no meaning.

What does making the entire game like a raid have anything to do with whether the game should be designed for rewards over other content?  There is zero logic behind this.

It wasn't a question, it was a statement.  It's a strawman because you invented an argument that no one brought up, and countered it as if someone else brought it up.  You invented a problem and solution in the same paragraph that no one considers to be relevant to any of the points we're making.  That's what a strawman fallacy is and that is what you did.

 

 

So its okay that raids get rewards only one time a week while pve can farm like crazy?

K, thanks, seems fair ... not. Nice "strawmen" there. This is not the only discussion about this. I just bring my opinion in. When you don't like that or don't understand my english, you don't need to answer me. So simple, so easy :).

And NO im not saying you shoul farm raids. I know this would kitten of you only-pve-people a lot. But i just don't see what tze dmg would be, when raids get a fair treatment in rewards ...

Edited June 7, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Again my point Was not that people only play hot. My point was that people are driven to the most rewarding content.

And my point was that HoT is not the most rewarding content. And yet is being played. Which suggests that rewards, while important, are only one of the many factors. And seemingly not the most important one.

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And my point was that HoT is not the most rewarding content. And yet is being played. Which suggests that rewards, while important, are only one of the many factors. And seemingly not the most important one.

Ah, so you've just made up a ""fact"" to pretend you have a point. But HoT content is still rewarding despite you trying to pretend otherwise.

[Astralporing.1957]

23 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ah, so you've just made up a ""fact"" to pretend you have a point. But HoT content is still rewarding despite you trying to pretend otherwise.

Oh, it is still rewarding. But not most rewarding. And the argument was, need i remind you, that players are driven to most rewarding content. Which, again, HoT is not. So, saying that HoT metas are very popular would be bringing up an example that evidently the primary argument is somewhat lacking.

[Ashen.2907]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh, it is still rewarding. But not most rewarding. And the argument was, need i remind you, that players are driven to most rewarding content. Which, again, HoT is not. So, saying that HoT metas are very popular would be bringing up an example that evidently the primary argument is somewhat lacking.

Keep in mind that:

1) Players are driven to the most rewarding content

2) People play HoT even though it is not the most rewarding content

 

Are not mutually exclusive because not everyone will own the most rewarding content. Not every group. such as, "players," is all encompassing. An exception does not disprove a generality when speaking in general. Saying that men are taller than women is not made false by a very small minority of exceptions.

 

But, yes, rewards are part of the picture not the whole picture themselves. I would argue that they tend to be, in the long run at least, the larger portion of the picture.

[Astralporing.1957]

27 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Keep in mind that:

1) Players are driven to the most rewarding content

2) People play HoT even though it is not the most rewarding content

Are not mutually exclusive because not everyone will own the most rewarding content. Not every group. such as, "players," is all encompassing. An exception does not disprove a generality when speaking in general. Saying that men are taller than women is not made false by a very small minority of exceptions.

But, yes, rewards are part of the picture not the whole picture themselves. I would argue that they tend to be, in the long run at least, the larger portion of the picture.

I'd say it's looking at it from the wrong side. It's not like players are driven towards the most rewarding content. Rather, they are being driven out of the least rewarding content. The content someone plays need not be most rewarding, but needs to be "rewarding enough" so players don't feel they're losing time by playing it. As such, it's not the rewards themselves that are primary factor, but rather lack of them.

The effect of rewards as a positive motivator is probably way lower than its effect as a negative one (notice: i am talking here purely about reward value, not about content-specific unique rewards)

Edited June 7, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

On 6/4/2022 at 12:27 PM, Expertus.5746 said:

Im not asking the game to shift, to chenge direction. Im not talking about new raids, or fractals, that ship has sailed. Im talking about making existing challenging content rewarding. The only thing i asked for in my post, is a new tab for a vendor. (Im not a game dev, i have no idea how that stuff works, but i assume, its not that hard to include a shop with purchasable items.)
This game is all about "play how you want." What if i wanted to play hard instanced content? Why shouldnt the game reward me for doing that? I was talking about a cosmetic item every 9-13 week.
The time, and gold investment of these game modes are way, way higher than any other game mode, not even talking about the preparation that needs to go into, before you can even start doing them. So why couldnt i get a few (worthless, because its acc bound) flashy item a year by doing them?

you ask this question to a player base that has been conditioned to think that effort is not desirable and thus rewards for something like effort is not desirable either. you are to them free loading if you want nice direct rewards for doing something challenging. be it fragile ego of their skill set or the toxic " its just a game not a job" mindset, the vast majority will be genuinely upset if you give something to those who are actually good at the game that isn't just long term "account value" and they can not get it by swiping the magic card from mom and dad.

Edited June 7, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[Sobx.1758]

56 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh, it is still rewarding. But not most rewarding. And the argument was, need i remind you, that players are driven to most rewarding content. Which, again, HoT is not. So, saying that HoT metas are very popular would be bringing up an example that evidently the primary argument is somewhat lacking.

The content doesn't need to be literally "the most rewarding", it just needs to be highly rewarding (or in other words: rewarding enough). And HoT is. I doubt anyone thinks the former is true, since it would make only one zone/event re/playable.

And still no source for your -what looks to be for now- made up claim?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

17 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The content doesn't need to be literally "the most rewarding", it just needs to be highly rewarding (or in other words: rewarding enough). And HoT is. I doubt anyone thinks the former is true, since it would make only one zone/event re/playable.

Yes, that was part of my point. It's not about players being only interested in the mpost rewarding content, like was the claim. It's just about players wanting to feel rewarded enough, which is something completely different to that original claim.

17 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And still no source for your -what looks to be for now- made up claim?

And here i thought you were the person that advocated reading comprehension and google fu. If you don't believe me, you're free to look it up on your own. I don't really care, since anyone that actually knows something about the issue will realize i'm right anyway.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Erise.5614]

When it comes down to it. Rewards in games are an excuse to keep having fun.

Game developers can use it to encourage diversity. Which in turn makes individual pieces of content less likely to get stale. And players can use it as a guide for what to do when they just want to have fun and wonder what they should do next. 

Which means in reality it's a balance. Players won't play the most rewarding content in the game if they don't enjoy it. They'll gladly settle for something slightly less rewarding. And similarly, players will avoid their favorite content if it's unrewarding and settle for something they enjoy slightly less if the rewards are much better. 

The moment you exclusively play because of rewards and not because you enjoy playing is the moment the hobby turned into an addiction. 

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And here i thought you were the person that advocated reading comprehension and google fu. Since you apparently can't find that info on your own, might i direct you towards the webpages of farming communities, like for example [fast]?

Yeah nothing about it proves your claim. If you think otherwise, just bring up the actual numbers where exactly you got them from.

And without change: The content doesn't need to be literally "the most rewarding", it just needs to be highly rewarding (or in other words: rewarding enough). And HoT is. I doubt anyone thinks the former is true, since it would make only one zone/event (re)playable.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah nothing about it proves your claim. If you think otherwise, just bring up the actual numbers where exactly you got them from please.

If you think i'm wrong, prove me wrong then. Go ahead.

[Sobx.1758]

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If you think i'm wrong, prove me wrong then. Go ahead.

That's not how it works. You're making a random claim that you say is easly proven with numbers from fast farming site (before you edited that part out of your previous post -except it's still quoted in its original form in my response) and now... you want me to prove the negative of your claim. You actually know how wrong you are with this approach. You made up a claim, you know you have no data behind it and now you're running from it, when -if it was true- all you would need to do is ctrc-ctrv 4 values with mention where you got them from.

But long-story-short, you have no numbers for what you repeatedly claim you have the numbers for, which is optimal/suboptimal play and the "can join whenever and it's still better". You know it and that's why you can't provide anything 😴

Edited June 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'd say it's looking at it from the wrong side. It's not like players are driven towards the most rewarding content. Rather, they are being driven out of the least rewarding content. The content someone plays need not be most rewarding, but needs to be "rewarding enough" so players don't feel they're losing time by playing it. As such, it's not the rewards themselves that are primary factor, but rather lack of them.

The effect of rewards as a positive motivator is probably way lower than its effect as a negative one (notice: i am talking here purely about reward value, not about content-specific unique rewards)

Being driven out of something is being driven toward something else just as being driven toward something is being driven away from something else. When A = B then B = A. A and B are the same thing. There is no real distinction between the two.