Specific complaints about Dismount mechanics, PvE volume, and gate mechanics

[mziven.2095]

For context, I prefer to play WvW as a solo Harbinger or in small groups and this post in written from that specific lens.

 

- Dismount mechanics in WvW are awful. Unless I've put 166 lvls into the warclaw I have no reliable means of removing a player from their mount. For additional context, I have Conflux, the legendary WvW ring, and my WvW rank is 141... I don't think it makes a lot of sense that it is faster to craft a legendary item than to unlock the single useful skill for the WvW mount. This also has some unfortunate gameplay consequences. I cannot dictate an engagement with another player. Best case scenario, they dismount and let me fight them. More often, they slowly move towards friendly players or NPCs, or in the most frustrating instances, they stand perfectly still and let me waste cooldowns on their mount before dismounting at the last possible moment and  engaging me with a 30 sec cooldown advantage... This is unacceptable in my opinion. I should be able to play this game mode, which is required for legendary crafting, without having to rely on a blob for content.

 

-PvE volume and structure gate mechanics  also promote exceptionally frustrating gameplay.  Because there is a large volume of guards on the exterior of compounds, and because the gates allow unrestricted access to friendly players in combat, there is a tendency for solo players and small groups to only take fights in close proximity to friendly structures. These engagements tend to play out like so. Start a fight, drag enemy toward guards, if things are still going badly run back into compound. Rinse and repeat.  Killing the guards in such instances is also fairly pointless because of how quickly they respawn. This is unenjoyable for a number of reasons. Quite succinctly, its a bunch of BS. If a player is in combat they should not be able to use the gate. This would be consistent with waypoint mechanics, and mount mechanics.  If they're going to take the fight it should not be without risk.  Barring that, the density of exterior guards, and speed with which they respawn needs to be adjusted. Personally I think it makes sense to relocate exterior guards to the inside of the structure and add five minutes to the respawn timer but that's just me. I believe the focus of this game mode should be more skewed toward dynamic player vs player interactions with minimal PvE interaction. 

 

 

 

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

I would imagine you play celestial..

 

I kid..
 

WvW is considered PvPvE.  Much to the chagrin of many of us.  It was never designed to be purely PvP.  
 

Many of us would love mechanics that encourage player versus player interaction.  
 

For the dismounting piece, use a condi bomb..  it will dismount most players.  Or, run with a mate.  
 

WvW has the Warclaw whether we like it or not.  The topic of removing it, has significantly been discussed, and it’s not going to change..  

 

Having it need 166 ranks is quite frustrating for newer players.  They could cut the ranks needed in half, but, considering there is no use for ranks after 1500ish, not sure they’ll actually decrease the ranks needed..

[Xenesis.6389]

Sounds like desperation for a kill.

Next you'll probably complain people shouldn't use pillars and corners for combat....

Hate to break it to you, but this game mode was design as large scale combat with siege to defend and capture objectives for points to win at the end of the week. PPK wasn't even a thing until a few years ago. The game mode is already highly focused on fighting.

Maybe walk over to the spvp area where you don't have to deal with mounts and guards.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, mziven.2095 said:

Unless I've put 166 lvls into the warclaw I have no reliable means of removing a player from their mount.

Even after unlocking the lance skill you won't have a reliable skill to dismount players (still better than not having it at all ofc, but reliable is different). Unfortunately the mount has caused permanent damage to the game mode and there is nothing we can do about it other than learn to live with it, because it won't go away.

[Zyreva.1078]

14 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Hate to break it to you, but this game mode was design as large scale combat with siege to defend and capture objectives for points to win at the end of the week.

This is a contradiction, because the best way to PPT would actually be to split into smaller grps instead of running arround in a zerg. So maybe the game mode wasn't (solely) designed arround zerg fights (and the combat system certainly isn't).

[Xenesis.6389]

Just now, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

This is a contradiction, because the best way to PPT would actually be to split into smaller grps instead of running arround in a zerg. So maybe the game mode wasn't (solely) designed arround zerg fights (and the combat system certainly isn't).

I didn't say zerg fighting, I said large scale as in multiple groups could be involved.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

I didn't say zerg fighting, I said large scale as in multiple groups could be involved.

You said "large scale combat". What would that be if not a large amount of players fighting at the same time at the same place aka zerg/blob fights?

[Xenesis.6389]

2 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

You said "large scale combat". What would that be if not a large amount of players fighting at the same time at the same place aka zerg/blob fights?

That doesn't mean 1 blob vs 1 blob.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

That doesn't mean 1 blob vs 1 blob.

Doesn't answer my question. What DOES it mean?

Also if you include scall scale combat in your large scale gameplay, then the OPs complaints are valid and your reply doesn't make much sense.

[Xenesis.6389]

Yeah man this is a gvg game mode.

You win!

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Yeah man this is a gvg game mode.

You win!

That's an odd conclusion ...

But i take the "win".

[kash.9213]

The game mode mechanics don't promote pve over pvp, players do and if you took out anything you thought was a pve gimmick, you'd see the exact same amount of those people as you do now, or you wouldn't see them at all. But then people who aren't you and who aren't in your time zone will have their server and match dynamics effected. Other people breeze through those guards and like to have them there for participation and it's a good heads up on your sides map. 

If they run into a gate, set up some siege and open a wall. They'll come out like you want (unless you were all about that fight when you had them unprepared and you actually don't want that) to handle the siege or they won't and you might take a tower.

Mounts in WvW should have most of their stuff unlocked soon. WvW isn't open world and there's no need for that kind of grind for players newer to this game mode.

Edited June 15, 2022 by kash.9213

[mziven.2095]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Sounds like desperation for a kill.

Next you'll probably complain people shouldn't use pillars and corners for combat....

Hate to break it to you, but this game mode was design as large scale combat with siege to defend and capture objectives for points to win at the end of the week. PPK wasn't even a thing until a few years ago. The game mode is already highly focused on fighting.

Maybe walk over to the spvp area where you don't have to deal with mounts and guards.

I'm stated my complaints as well as common sense adjustments for mechanics that I find frustrating. I've also provided context for my perspective and acknowledged it is my opinion. If you can not defend your argument against my complaints without personally attacking me your position may lack merit. 

[ASP.8093]

2 hours ago, mziven.2095 said:

- Dismount mechanics in WvW are awful. Unless I've put 166 lvls into the warclaw I have no reliable means of removing a player from their mount. For additional context, I have Conflux, the legendary WvW ring, and my WvW rank is 141... I don't think it makes a lot of sense that it is faster to craft a legendary item than to unlock the single useful skill for the WvW mount. This also has some unfortunate gameplay consequences. I cannot dictate an engagement with another player. Best case scenario, they dismount and let me fight them. More often, they slowly move towards friendly players or NPCs, or in the most frustrating instances, they stand perfectly still and let me waste cooldowns on their mount before dismounting at the last possible moment and  engaging me with a 30 sec cooldown advantage... This is unacceptable in my opinion. I should be able to play this game mode, which is required for legendary crafting, without having to rely on a blob for content.

Warclaw has about 8k hp, you can burn through it very quickly if you're in range. And you do get a big fat knockdown for killing it. If you look around, you'll see people killing riders all the time with Rapid Fire or Deadeye Rifle combos; Harbinger also has incredibly sick ranged burst, you should be able to do *something* with it.

[mziven.2095]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

Warclaw has about 8k hp, you can burn through it very quickly if you're in range. And you do get a big fat knockdown for killing it. If you look around, you'll see people killing riders all the time with Rapid Fire or Deadeye Rifle combos; Harbinger also has incredibly sick ranged burst, you should be able to do *something* with it.

You certainly can get a dismount if your opponent allows it or makes considerable mistakes.  But as I've described, this is unlikely the vast majority of the time and also results in a considerable skill cooldown disadvantage, even if you're fortunate enough to get a knockdown. 

[ASP.8093]

3 hours ago, mziven.2095 said:

You certainly can get a dismount if your opponent allows it or makes considerable mistakes.  But as I've described, this is unlikely the vast majority of the time and also results in a considerable skill cooldown disadvantage, even if you're fortunate enough to get a knockdown. 

I don't think "considerable skill cooldown disadvantage" matters as much when you've also reduced your opponent to half health or less.

[Odin.6487]

BREAKING NEW! This just in, wvw rewards are garbage and make no sense!

[LSD.4673]

The guards have nothing to do with fighting outside gates. It's the combat break. The only guard that poses a threat is the scout and its spammy blind.

Don't fight outside gates. The whole point of the structure is to provide protection. If you've got a free out from death, you take it.

[mziven.2095]

5 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

The guards have nothing to do with fighting outside gates. It's the combat break. The only guard that poses a threat is the scout and its spammy blind.

Don't fight outside gates. The whole point of the structure is to provide protection. If you've got a free out from death, you take it.

For sure, I don't blame the players for using mechanics that work to their advantage as long as its not a clear exploit. My complaints are focused on the mechanics that promote gameplay that is frustrating and unenjoyable for players such as myself that like to play alone instead of relying on large groups for content. (And again, I'm required to play this content for legendary crafting) As far as fights are concerned, as I've stated the dismount mechanics generally prevent me from being able to dictate the the location of a fight so I'm pretty limited on where and when I get to fight. These issues are exacerbated by the gate mechanics I've described as well as the number of exterior guards and their respawn time because they encourages solo players only fight in close proximity to their gate (As this improves their odds of survival).  

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, mziven.2095 said:

For sure, I don't blame the players for using mechanics that work to their advantage as long as its not a clear exploit. My complaints are focused on the mechanics that promote gameplay that is frustrating and unenjoyable for players such as myself that like to play alone instead of relying on large groups for content. (And again, I'm required to play this content for legendary crafting) As far as fights are concerned, as I've stated the dismount mechanics generally prevent me from being able to dictate the the location of a fight so I'm pretty limited on where and when I get to fight. These issues are exacerbated by the gate mechanics I've described as well as the number of exterior guards and their respawn time because they encourages solo players only fight in close proximity to their gate (As this improves their odds of survival).  

There are always other players, on all three sides, who are looking for small scale fights. Maybe going door to door trying to catch people gathering their nodes isn't the best way to find those other players. Again, the mechanics aren't hampering your game play, you just might not be as honest with yourself as you think you are. 

I tend to dismount early in a lot of areas so I won't get knocked off as an opener, I have a hard time believing entire maps are running away from you on their mounts, even if they wanted to. Regardless, that's WvW, and a lot of the action is going to be large scale fights. Lobby Anet for an open world pvp server or flagged open world pvp, I'd support you because I've been asking for that for years. I only disagree that it's the structure and mount mechanics that are the problem instead of WvW not being a lived in game mode or the playerbase itself. 

Again, get some supply and siege and ask people running by to drop some supply on it and take out a wall or gate. It will be on those players hiding inside to come out to you or leave their tower and pretend they didn't see anything, but then you might have a tower. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by kash.9213

[mziven.2095]

So your argument is the gameplay mechanics are fine but the

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

you just might not be as honest with yourself as you think you are.

 

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I only disagree that it's the structure and mount mechanics that are the problem instead of WvW not being a lived in game mode or the playerbase itself. 

So your position is the gameplay mechanics that I've described are fine and mount mechanics are fine but I'm not being honest or the problem is with the playerbase? You're defending you position by ascribing value judgements to myself and other players. That is not a cogent argument.   

 

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Lobby Anet for an open world pvp server or flagged open world pvp, I'd support you because I've been asking for that for years.

Why would you need an entire new server or gamemode to address the problems I've described. Certainly, reducing the level requirements for the Warclaw, and disabling entrances through gates while in combat would be far easier. I'm not even sure why it is controversial? Consider this thought experiment with regards to the gate question: 1) You're fighting someone and they decide they're losing  and they use a way point you get away even though they are in combat. We can probably agree that would be a really bad mechanic.  2) Now consider you're fighting someone and they decide they're losing and so they walk though a gate, then they use a waypoint when they're out of combat to get away... Why is second scenario permissible when the first scenario is not? My argument is that neither make sense and should not be allowed. That is more consistent with other mechanics, and more conducive to enjoyable gameplay.      

[Kate.3679]

they should make mount 4 undodgeable i.e. enemy presses 4 on you, you get off mount no counterplay

[kash.9213]

16 hours ago, mziven.2095 said:

So your argument is the gameplay mechanics are fine but the

 

So your position is the gameplay mechanics that I've described are fine and mount mechanics are fine but I'm not being honest or the problem is with the playerbase? You're defending you position by ascribing value judgements to myself and other players. That is not a cogent argument.   

 

Why would you need an entire new server or gamemode to address the problems I've described. Certainly, reducing the level requirements for the Warclaw, and disabling entrances through gates while in combat would be far easier. I'm not even sure why it is controversial? Consider this thought experiment with regards to the gate question: 1) You're fighting someone and they decide they're losing  and they use a way point you get away even though they are in combat. We can probably agree that would be a really bad mechanic.  2) Now consider you're fighting someone and they decide they're losing and so they walk though a gate, then they use a waypoint when they're out of combat to get away... Why is second scenario permissible when the first scenario is not? My argument is that neither make sense and should not be allowed. That is more consistent with other mechanics, and more conducive to enjoyable gameplay.      

Yes to the part in bold, glad you understood. Reality stings I guess. 

Play WvW for awhile longer and think about not allowing anyone to walk into a gate while in combat. Don't get an attitude and act offended when you're trying to change mechanics others don't have a problem with, into something most people would have a problem with, for you're benefit. 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

On 6/16/2022 at 1:37 PM, LSD.4673 said:

Don't fight outside gates. The whole point of the structure is to provide protection. If you've got a free out from death, you take it.

Have you ever seen a structure provide protection with no doors or walls? 

You know, the things that will be missing due to the damage of the siege outside the gates?

[mziven.2095]

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Yes to the part in bold, glad you understood. Reality stings I guess. 

Play WvW for awhile longer and think about not allowing anyone to walk into a gate while in combat. Don't get an attitude and act offended when you're trying to change mechanics others don't have a problem with, into something most people would have a problem with, for you're benefit. 

 

I've described a problem, offered evidence, and suggested alternatives that would have little to no impact on the overall gameplay but make the mode more equitable for solo players. You have not managed to offer a defense of those mechanics or a coherent objection to my argument other than to ascribe value judgements to myself or the player base.  There may be good counter arguments that an experienced WvW player could offer. If you can not provide such arguments than you should consider reevaluating your position on this subject.