The SA rework and its consequences

[Bazsi.2734]

(Yes, the title is a reference to a meme.)

Here is my review of the Shadow Arts rework. The patch hasn't been out for 2 hours yet, so this will not go into much nuance... it doesn't need to.

As I can see, the goal of this rework was to heavily disincentivize permastealthing. Depending on what traits you picked, you have set rewards for entering and leaving stealth. Basicly the more time you spend on stealth, the worse off you are. So going into Shadow Arts makes you want to spend as little time in stealth as possible. Which is weird... but let's not condemn the whole rework just yet.

Let's play some matches on SA deadeye. Oh, permament superspeed... and infinite initiative (every rifle dodge, every f2 with 5+ malice is 3 initative). I can basicly run circles around the enemy and spam 2. This feels extremely cheap and degen...
Lets swap to D/P. Just for the memes, I went to duel a support guardian on a capture point. With this new limitless initiative regen, I managed to spam it down with autoattacks and hearthseekers, 2012 november style. He even commented on how <REDACTED> I am... and he was right, I was going out of my way to play dumb, to see how much I get rewarded for it. This ain't any better.

Basicly the new thief is simple, spammy and very mobile without any effort or skill requirement. Maybe the skill team(or whoever was responsible for this rework) did not consider how much the new traits will synergise with SOME e-specs and SOME weaponsets. Superspeed is so common it's making swiftness completely irrelevant, why add it to the SA line?

We went from having to invest seconds camping stealth to get regen/initiative to not ever being in stealth and still getting said regen, only twice the amount. 0/10 rework, i'd love to see a revert. Also can not wait to see that writeup on why the rework happened this way. It will surely expand my horizons, as I currently the only acceptable reason I can think of is "sorry guys we had no idea what we were doing".

[LoreChief.8391]

If they wanted to fix perma-stealthing they should have just changed Black Powder to a Dark field.

[AlphaReborn.1567]

What Deadeye build are you using? I was thinking of doing a boon duration build with it with Mag7 for WvW, and having a ton of vigor for dodges sounds like it’ll synergize quite well with the infinite vigor.

[Sootser.9541]

I changed to bound and zoomed around. Tried P/P as the other set instead of short bow and boy it is disgusting. 
 

Mobility is through the roof. Can focus targets down, have near infinite access to initiative. Gonna abuse the heck out of this! 😂

[GewRoo.4172]

Feel you, OP. Synergy with Deadeye is busted. Boon rip with S/D is insane too (4 via Stealth attack, 2 via Inf Strike, add sigils). I feel there is even a way to abuse Hidden Killer on Critical Strikes - but it looks like we would have to drop Trickery which might even work with the new Initiative reg!? 

 

I prefer this version to the former 10/10 times on both ends. Still carried by passives but somewhat higher skill floor. Spamming Heart Seekers is easier punished than sitting in stealth to reset or wait for an opener. 

[haenz.9578]

1 hour ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

(Yes, the title is a reference to a meme.)

Here is my review of the Shadow Arts rework. The patch hasn't been out for 2 hours yet, so this will not go into much nuance... it doesn't need to.

As I can see, the goal of this rework was to heavily disincentivize permastealthing. Depending on what traits you picked, you have set rewards for entering and leaving stealth. Basicly the more time you spend on stealth, the worse off you are. So going into Shadow Arts makes you want to spend as little time in stealth as possible. Which is weird... but let's not condemn the whole rework just yet.

Let's play some matches on SA deadeye. Oh, permament superspeed... and infinite initiative (every rifle dodge, every f2 with 5+ malice is 3 initative). I can basicly run circles around the enemy and spam 2. This feels extremely cheap and degen...
Lets swap to D/P. Just for the memes, I went to duel a support guardian on a capture point. With this new limitless initiative regen, I managed to spam it down with autoattacks and hearthseekers, 2012 november style. He even commented on how <REDACTED> I am... and he was right, I was going out of my way to play dumb, to see how much I get rewarded for it. This ain't any better.

Basicly the new thief is simple, spammy and very mobile without any effort or skill requirement. Maybe the skill team(or whoever was responsible for this rework) did not consider how much the new traits will synergise with SOME e-specs and SOME weaponsets. Superspeed is so common it's making swiftness completely irrelevant, why add it to the SA line?

We went from having to invest seconds camping stealth to get regen/initiative to not ever being in stealth and still getting said regen, only twice the amount. 0/10 rework, i'd love to see a revert. Also can not wait to see that writeup on why the rework happened this way. It will surely expand my horizons, as I currently the only acceptable reason I can think of is "sorry guys we had no idea what we were doing".

Would you show me your build with sigils and amu pls?

[Bazsi.2734]

3 hours ago, haenz.9578 said:

Would you show me your build with sigils and amu pls?

It really doesn't matter what you run. Meld with Shadows is picked by default, it gives you permanent superspeed if you do not overstack stealth, just pick the grandmaster Shadow's Rejuventation --> 3 initiative every time you go in and out of stealth. Just make a combo that is able to apply stealth in many different ways. The shorter the duration the better.

And obviously this is in the context of PvP. Nobody cares about shadow arts in PvE.

[I Insanity I.3278]

Tried some stuff in WvW yesterday. And tbh I like this new SA better than before.

Less annoying stealth camping and active play feels more rewarding. 

 

Tested out some Builds and all worked really well.

 

SA Deadly Arts Core DP

SA DRD DP  (Works really well with Bounding Dodger too)

SA DE (Synergy and mobility is borderline broken now)

 

Gw2Skills isn't updated yet, but you get the idea.

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by I Insanity I.3278

[Jitters.9401]

1 hour ago, I Insanity I.3278 said:

Less annoying stealth camping and active play feels more rewarding. 

Your perspective only.

 

I never used d/p.

Sometimes I use p/d d/d  

I use mostly use d/d + d/d

 

This stealth need fully takes my playstyle and flushes it down the toilet.

 

I get marked + revealed by sentries.

I get marked +revealed by towers.

I get revealed by half the professions out there.

I get revealed by traps.

 

What really am I given to compensate for literal plethora of reveal mechanics out there? 

 

I get nerfed. 

 

This is why I don't use real currency for the game. I would have absolutely no problem spending real currency to support the game on a regular basis if it was not for the fact garbage like this happens. 

[I Insanity I.3278]

6 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Your perspective only.

 

I never used d/p.

Sometimes I use p/d d/d  

I use mostly use d/d + d/d

 

This stealth need fully takes my playstyle and flushes it down the toilet.

 

I get marked + revealed by sentries.

I get marked +revealed by towers.

I get revealed by half the professions out there.

I get revealed by traps.

 

What really am I given to compensate for literal plethora of reveal mechanics out there? 

 

I get nerfed. 

 

This is why I don't use real currency for the game. I would have absolutely no problem spending real currency to support the game on a regular basis if it was not for the fact garbage like this happens. 

Well, you take an underperforming Weaponset twice and it was only somehow viable because SA was so overperforming.

I'd say Dagger/Dagger needs improvements, while SA needed to be toned down.

[Jitters.9401]

24 minutes ago, I Insanity I.3278 said:

Well, you take an underperforming Weaponset twice and it was only somehow viable because SA was so overperforming.

Your perspective and not even close to my reality.

 

For how I play d/d + d/d was absolutely the only choice.  I never liked using d/p to stealth.  Always found it too op so I refuse to use it.

 

I've lost 1 fight out of 100 with d/d  + d/d build and that was to a harbinger but I took him out after. You put me against any thief 1v1. I will win every time

 I am that confident.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Jitters.9401

[I Insanity I.3278]

19 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Your perspective and not even close to my reality.

 

For how I play d/d + d/d was absolutely the only choice.  I never liked using d/p to stealth.  Always found it too op so I refuse to use it.

 

I've lost 1 fight out of 100 with d/d  + d/d build and that was to a harbinger but I took him out after. You put me against any thief 1v1. I will win every time

 I am that confident.

 

 

 

Ok buddy.. *doubt*

 

 

[Nyel.1843]

2 hours ago, I Insanity I.3278 said:

Tried some stuff in WvW yesterday. And tbh I like this new SA better than before.

Less annoying stealth camping and active play feels more rewarding. 

 

Tested out some Builds and all worked really well.

 

SA Deadly Arts Core DP

SA DRD DP  (Works really well with Bounding Dodger too)

SA DE (Synergy and mobility is borderline broken now)

 

Gw2Skills isn't updated yet, but you get the idea.

 

 

 

 

Your Deadeye build looks like fun. I'm a pretty new Thief player, could you elaborate and explain that build and its incentives a bit, please?

[AlphaReborn.1567]

35 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

 

Your Deadeye build looks like fun. I'm a pretty new Thief player, could you elaborate and explain that build and its incentives a bit, please?

Hey new Thief buddy, not the guy you are asking for, but I run a very similar build to his now. Assuming he’s going for the condi clear first trait, venom second trait, and initiative gain third trait. I also go full Marauder with scholar runes as I like the extra ~10% more damage more than I feel I need the extra health/sustain (but that’s reasonable too). I also run black powder instead of the signet since the condi clear from the trait and sigils are enough for me, and will swap out mercy for binding shadow depending on the fight. So basically this.

 

I wrote a detailed post about how to play it in another thread, so check my post history if you want more info, but the basic playstyle revolves around hitting seven malice - basically there are two ways to get there. You start by marking them and fire rifle 2s. You can fire five of them with a full initiative tank, and need to hit three of the five to get to seven malice. So against lesser players you’ll be able to get the seven malice off one volley of it. This gives you a ton of most of the best boons in the game, and gives you most your initiative back. 
 

However, if you miss a bunch of shots - say they get blocked/dodged, etc - you won’t hit 7 malice, and now you have no initiative. That’s where the new SA comes into play. You dodge to get into stealth, which gives you 3 initiative back. Then when you come out of stealth use one charge of your elite, which removes revealed and gives you 3 initiative back. Natural regeneration of initiative will also give you about three back. So you’ll have 9 initiative, enough for three more good shots which should be more than enough to get you to 7 malice and get all your initiative back so you can start again, or do a super powered stealth attack (I’ve hit for like 15k death judgements on berserker stats enemies). My recent favorite with seven malice is actually blowing all my initiative again on another volley of rifle shots, using Mercy to drain all my malice and give me back all my initiative, marking, and repeating the entire process. You literally can get nearly infinite shots off like this, and you’ll still be popping into stealth a lot which makes you hard to fight. And even if you get into trouble, Mag7 keeps protection up a lot, and you have constant healing/regen/condi clear from the rotation so you are tanky as hell for a thief. 
 

Hope this helps!

[Nyel.1843]

1 hour ago, AlphaReborn.1567 said:

Hey new Thief buddy, not the guy you are asking for, but I run a very similar build to his now. Assuming he’s going for the condi clear first trait, venom second trait, and initiative gain third trait. I also go full Marauder with scholar runes as I like the extra ~10% more damage more than I feel I need the extra health/sustain (but that’s reasonable too). I also run black powder instead of the signet since the condi clear from the trait and sigils are enough for me, and will swap out mercy for binding shadow depending on the fight. So basically this.

 

I wrote a detailed post about how to play it in another thread, so check my post history if you want more info, but the basic playstyle revolves around hitting seven malice - basically there are two ways to get there. You start by marking them and fire rifle 2s. You can fire five of them with a full initiative tank, and need to hit three of the five to get to seven malice. So against lesser players you’ll be able to get the seven malice off one volley of it. This gives you a ton of most of the best boons in the game, and gives you most your initiative back. 
 

However, if you miss a bunch of shots - say they get blocked/dodged, etc - you won’t hit 7 malice, and now you have no initiative. That’s where the new SA comes into play. You dodge to get into stealth, which gives you 3 initiative back. Then when you come out of stealth use one charge of your elite, which removes revealed and gives you 3 initiative back. Natural regeneration of initiative will also give you about three back. So you’ll have 9 initiative, enough for three more good shots which should be more than enough to get you to 7 malice and get all your initiative back so you can start again, or do a super powered stealth attack (I’ve hit for like 15k death judgements on berserker stats enemies). My recent favorite with seven malice is actually blowing all my initiative again on another volley of rifle shots, using Mercy to drain all my malice and give me back all my initiative, marking, and repeating the entire process. You literally can get nearly infinite shots off like this, and you’ll still be popping into stealth a lot which makes you hard to fight. And even if you get into trouble, Mag7 keeps protection up a lot, and you have constant healing/regen/condi clear from the rotation so you are tanky as hell for a thief. 
 

Hope this helps!

 

Great explanation and sounds really fun to play, thank you!

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Sa rework was good, the ini gain and superspeed help alleviate high ini costs and reliance on sb, I used sb a lot with DE tho most dont. I'd say return stealth on steal as this change hurt the flow of a lit of builds ie x/d builds. Lower Shadowstep cd to 40 and leave the rest alone, be more beneficial to start pushing for a acro rework next or for them at least to address the 300 sec cd traits.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Psycoprophet.8107

[I Insanity I.3278]

9 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Sa rework was good, the ini gain and superspeed help alleviate high ini costs and reliance on sb, I used sb a lot with DE tho most dont. I'd say return stealth on steal as this change hurt the flow of a lit of builds ie x/d builds. Lower Shadowstep cd to 40 and leave the rest alone, be more beneficial to start pushing for a acro rework next or for them at least to address the 300 sec cd traits.

 

Guess I'm the minority with this, but i'd prefer stealth on Heal rather than on Steal. Stealth on Steal always felt a bit cheap, while on Heal it fit the defensive purpose a bit better in my opinion.  

[Telgum.6071]

I didn't try the new SA yet but what you wrote sounds way better than being a stealth bot.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

32 minutes ago, I Insanity I.3278 said:

 

Guess I'm the minority with this, but i'd prefer stealth on Heal rather than on Steal. Stealth on Steal always felt a bit cheap, while on Heal it fit the defensive purpose a bit better in my opinion.  

No that's understandable to as it was a great effect as well, withdrawl was my go to until they reduced the stealth given after heal, after the reduction I personally found hide in shadows better which already gave me plenty of stealth to disengage without the trait. Back in the day the trait was great with withdrawal imo.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Cynz.9437]

There is no ICD on those things. Oh dear. No way it stays like this. No stealth on steal still hurts.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

18 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

(Yes, the title is a reference to a meme.)

Here is my review of the Shadow Arts rework. The patch hasn't been out for 2 hours yet, so this will not go into much nuance... it doesn't need to.

As I can see, the goal of this rework was to heavily disincentivize permastealthing. Depending on what traits you picked, you have set rewards for entering and leaving stealth. Basicly the more time you spend on stealth, the worse off you are. So going into Shadow Arts makes you want to spend as little time in stealth as possible. Which is weird... but let's not condemn the whole rework just yet.

Let's play some matches on SA deadeye. Oh, permament superspeed... and infinite initiative (every rifle dodge, every f2 with 5+ malice is 3 initative). I can basicly run circles around the enemy and spam 2. This feels extremely cheap and degen...
Lets swap to D/P. Just for the memes, I went to duel a support guardian on a capture point. With this new limitless initiative regen, I managed to spam it down with autoattacks and hearthseekers, 2012 november style. He even commented on how <REDACTED> I am... and he was right, I was going out of my way to play dumb, to see how much I get rewarded for it. This ain't any better.

Basicly the new thief is simple, spammy and very mobile without any effort or skill requirement. Maybe the skill team(or whoever was responsible for this rework) did not consider how much the new traits will synergise with SOME e-specs and SOME weaponsets. Superspeed is so common it's making swiftness completely irrelevant, why add it to the SA line?

We went from having to invest seconds camping stealth to get regen/initiative to not ever being in stealth and still getting said regen, only twice the amount. 0/10 rework, i'd love to see a revert. Also can not wait to see that writeup on why the rework happened this way. It will surely expand my horizons, as I currently the only acceptable reason I can think of is "sorry guys we had no idea what we were doing".

Tbh I can see where the devs were going with the superspeed. Daredevil already has the mobility to do it's job effectively, and specter can tank much better than any other thief spec. Deadeye without stealth and without mobility is just plain dead, so if the longer stealth durations were being nerfed (which they have been), it was gonna need something else to keep it able to do it's job. 

 

The better question to me is, if SA has superspeed, what is the actual point of acrobatics? You could put things like "Steal breaks stun. If you break a stun this way, steal has 10s longer cooldown" and "Swindler's equilibrium: Steal recharge is reduced on evade (25%, 10scd). Gain 120 power, 240 if wielding a sword" and people still wouldn't play it as it stands. 

[Bazsi.2734]

3 minutes ago, Cynz.9437 said:

There is no ICD on those things. Oh dear. No way it stays like this. No stealth on steal still hurts.

I was thinking how to tone this down, and honestly it doesn't seem possible. You can only stealth up once every 4 second, but because of casting times and humans not being robots, it's more like 5-6 seconds. Any ICD shorter than that has no actual effect on gameplay, any longer than that destroys the point of going into SA for extra sustain.

Good luck fixing this one A-net.

[Curennos.9307]

DE has issues that are highlighted by these changes. The elite should never have been able to cleanse reveal, and dodge should have never given stealth. This patch is incomplete and missing a lot of changes that should have accompanied the ones they actually put in. It's like trying to put in the capstone before the rest of the stones...You just end up dropping a big rock on your foot. Still need the capstone, but there has to be something supporting it.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Curennos.9307

[Bazsi.2734]

16 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

DE has issues that are highlighted by these changes. The elite should never have been able to cleanse reveal, and dodge should have never given stealth. This patch is incomplete and missing a lot of changes that should have accompanied the ones they actually put in. It's like trying to put in the capstone before the rest of the stones...You just end up dropping a big rock on your foot. Still need the capstone, but there has to be something supporting it.

Funnily enough this is the first time ever I'm sure these things won't get changed. SA no longer offers additional ways to stealth up, so if DE-s own sources of stealth get nerfed, the spec will be unplayable by design. And a-net will not do that, that's what warrior is for.

[Szymon.5369]

20 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Funnily enough this is the first time ever I'm sure these things won't get changed. SA no longer offers additional ways to stealth up, so if DE-s own sources of stealth get nerfed, the spec will be unplayable by design. And a-net will not do that, that's what warrior is for.

 

They could change all the gains from "leaving stealth" to "revealing yourself". So no bonuses if you just let it run out.