Make WvW perm No Down state

[Dawdler.8521]

54 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

overall, yes, downstate is kinda bad. at least the downstates have FAR too much health. that is really not good bc it takes simply too long to cleave during mobile fights and in outnumbered fights.

Then again people are also exceedingly bad at bringing the skills to stomp people.

[Karagee.6830]

16 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Then again people are also exceedingly bad at bringing the skills to stomp people.

Or maybe the devs are exceedingly bad at setting up balanced teams and so you have servers fighting outnumbered 24/7. And on these servers, not only you have to down people with larger numbers than you, but you also have to stomp them? Sounds fair.

Do you know how many times I've been in a 1v2 where I downed the first, I couldn't safe stomp because not all the classes have that option, so I focused the second and downed that also, but lo and behold 2 or 3 more arrive while I'm stomping and both of those guys rally once I get done in by the newcomers? All of this with the little ugly red icon saying outnumbered. Guess how many times?

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Do you know how many times I've been in a 1v2 where I downed the first, I couldn't safe stomp because not all the classes have that option, so I focused the second and downed that also, but lo and behold 2 or 3 more arrive while I'm stomping and both of those guys rally once I get done in by the newcomers? All of this with the little ugly red icon saying outnumbered. Guess how many times?

Probably almost as many times you never said a word in map that you might need assistance before going head first into combat because you're just that cool?

[Draygo.9473]

I'm fine with removing rally for kill, but not fine with removing downstate. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I want two things. No Downstate and no target caps.

Why yes, I do want to double gunflame a whole zerg and kill them all. Would break up the ball in the end.

[Karagee.6830]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Probably almost as many times you never said a word in map that you might need assistance before going head first into combat because you're just that cool?

Who needs assistance for a +1 fight? Come on let's be realistic. You are not going to scream on team chat 'we're outnumbered on this enemy borderland, please send a blob (which we don't have, but I digress) because I can see 2 dots at a sentry and I'm afraid to engage'. More realistic scenarios and less argumentative useless answers. Thank you.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

27 minutes ago, Draygo.9473 said:

I'm fine with removing rally for kill, but not fine with removing downstate. 

Rallying is just the more egregious slap in the face, but if you are fighting outnumbered support can always put up reflects and ress with no limits. So while this would work (rarely) for roamers, it doesn't touch the root of the more general problem nor does it offer a solution. The goal here is to reduce some of the many advantages for people stacking numbers

And in fact nobody is advocating removing rallying or down state in pvp, because equal numbers means it's all gucci. If you want you can reduce downed hps a bit, but I don't think it really matters during a whole match. One team might be slightly luckier than the other during the first fight, but after that the team with the better output and better side noders will still win.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Draygo.9473]

People that outnumber you should have an advantage, they outnumber you. Part of the skill of playing outnumbered is being able to navigate downstate. 

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Who needs assistance for a +1 fight?

... someone that cant stomp?

Just saying.

[Karagee.6830]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

... someone that cant stomp?

Just saying.

I can't stomp because I mostly play a class with no stab, no quickness and no stealth and I still need to kill the second guy. In the several seconds I need to stomp I may actually take some serious damage, as I can't dodge or reflect. And typically you need to reset the stomp as the enemy will use his ability to either interrupt or move and then you may also get interrupted by the other guy. So yeah you focus the second guy trying to damage the downie or vice versa. Normally it's fine: down both, finish one, finish the next, unless more come.

But hey, listen, I have a new account, tell me which server you are on so I can come ask for your help in team chat when I see some isolated roamer and I only have 2 or 3 people following me.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

2 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

People that outnumber you should have an advantage, they outnumber you. Part of the skill of playing outnumbered is being able to navigate downstate. 

So you like stacking advantages for the stacking bandwagoners? I think we should give stat boosts to server that outnumber other servers so that there is more of an incentive to crowd the same map and to transfer to overstacked servers!!! People will become queue lovers with this simple and effective change.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Draygo.9473]

Did I say that? 

 

Numbers are an advantage, full stop. Figure out how to stomp while outnumbered. Its a skill you can learn. 

 

Boonball is a different issue entirely. 

 

The 2 changes to downstate I would support:

1) Remove rally on kill ( hard res or res skills only)

2) Remove the brief immunity when a player is downed. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Draygo.9473

[Karagee.6830]

14 minutes ago, Draygo.9473 said:

Figure out how to stomp while outnumbered. Its a skill you can learn. 

Next thing you know you lot will tell me: look you spellbreaker, you.has.banner, use it! You guys are priceless, one tells me to cry for help and call for more people when my server is constantly outnumbered because we never have a link and the other not only wants me to fight outnumbered, but also a) change to a different class or b) also spec into abilities to help me stomping, something that will likely result in me a) not enjoying the game by playing a meme build made for ganking that requires no skill or b) being killed instead. Note that the scenario is that I fight 2 and 2-3 more come to their rescue. What a pair of superior intellects. You know what? There were some openings with Anet, why don't you guys apply so you can keep company to another brilliant individual: balanceman himself.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Draygo.9473]

Finishing someone is a skill, and if you cant do it, you don't have the skill to deserve that kill. 

 

I like what downstate does in smaller fights, I find the mechanic fun. And who's to say if your fun or my fun is something anet should cater to? I gave you 2 points that I think would improve the overall situation and allow more skill and counterplay. You can take it, or you can just keep spilling personal attacks because I simply have a different opinion. 

 

Figuring out how to get a stomp off should be part of your build if you want to fight outnumbered, its part of the build expression you need to consider for your build. I for one welcome that challenge. 

[Scruffymonkeh.3721]

I like downstate, I think it brings an extra layer to the metagame. I think downstate only feels problematic to players which regularly take fights where they're outmanned or unorganized. Its current iteration for WvW is pretty good, and I wouldn't want no downstate to be permanent. As other commenters have said, playing around downstate is its own skill.

Numbers are an inherent advantage. That said, ways which disproportionately impact fights with large groups already exist. Some examples which come to mind include player skill, siege, and novelty builds. Communication is also an advantage organized groups tend to have over unorganized groups; an organized group is usually going to outperform an unorganized group.  If downstate was removed, it would end the res fiesta you find in some fights. However, its removal also removes the interesting communication involved with playing around downstate, while enhancing the viability of a few of those novelty builds which disproportionately impact fights. I don't think simplifying the game mode while strengthening the individual this way is most fun for WvW.

I understand balancing smaller groups versus larger groups has been a 'gigabrain wvw-roamer' talking point for years; but I don't really think an unorganized group should be able to pick off members of an organized group easier. Just the same, I don't think a smaller group should be able to pick off people in a larger group easier. It seems like many of the people advocating permanent downstate want to be able to close both advantages by trading positively in fights whether its 2 vs 3 or 2 vs 50.

The reality of the matter is, group organization and group size wont change because of down state's status. The only thing enacting permanent no down state would do, is further push large groups into less risky builds, and simplifying the game by removing a unique facet of it.

Rather than trying to conjure reasons as to why roamers and disorganized groups should win outmanned more often, a lot of you guys could just put more effort into thinking about how to make running smaller, or roaming, more interesting and worthwhile. Removing down state isn't it chiefs.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Scruffymonkeh.3721
spelling

[Svarty.8019]

8 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I want two things. No Downstate and no target caps.

Why yes, I do want to double gunflame a whole zerg and kill them all. Would break up the ball in the end.

No target caps -for class abilities- is out of the question, but I would like to see no target caps for siege (except maybe golems).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

28 minutes ago, Svarty.8019 said:

No target caps -for class abilities- is out of the question, but I would like to see no target caps for siege (except maybe golems).

Shhh, let dream of the old days where WvW was truly fun.

[Karagee.6830]

9 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

Finishing someone is a skill, and if you cant do it, you don't have the skill to deserve that kill. 

 

I like what downstate does in smaller fights, I find the mechanic fun. And who's to say if your fun or my fun is something anet should cater to? I gave you 2 points that I think would improve the overall situation and allow more skill and counterplay. You can take it, or you can just keep spilling personal attacks because I simply have a different opinion. 

 

Figuring out how to get a stomp off should be part of your build if you want to fight outnumbered, its part of the build expression you need to consider for your build. I for one welcome that challenge. 

lol ok, delusion is delusion. Please post a video of how to fight 1 v 4 people and getting stomps (other than safe stomping), so you can show us how it's done. You are loudly preaching that advantages for people outnumbering others should be maintained because it's just a matter of skill, let's just see it.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

6 hours ago, Scruffymonkeh.3721 said:

Numbers are an inherent advantage.

Yes a larger group already has many advantages, so why should they keep also this advantage?

6 hours ago, Scruffymonkeh.3721 said:

. It seems like many of the people advocating permanent downstate want to be able to close both advantages by trading positively in fights whether its 2 vs 3 or 2 vs 50.

And no 2v3 on a deserted map will not get you the outnumbered little red icon of sorrow, but 2 v 8 will

6 hours ago, Scruffymonkeh.3721 said:

The reality of the matter is, group organization and group size wont change because of down state's status.

Perfect argument to remove down state irrespective of outnumber if I ever saw one

6 hours ago, Scruffymonkeh.3721 said:

The only thing enacting permanent no down state would do, is further push large groups into less risky builds, and simplifying the game by removing a unique facet of it.

Why would you run immortal tanky builds (like many do now) when a glass cannon getting 1 kill will always favour the larger group? Example 50 v 20 all glass cannons. 20 die on each side, how many are left? Note that after that the remaining 30 can leisurely resurrect everyone.

6 hours ago, Scruffymonkeh.3721 said:

Rather than trying to conjure reasons as to why roamers and disorganized groups should win outmanned more often, a lot of you guys could just put more effort into thinking about how to make running smaller, or roaming, more interesting and worthwhile.

There is no way to make an outnumbered fight fair with similar skill among all players. So barring giving tangible artificial advantages to whoever is outnumbered the only other option is removing some advantages from the group with larger numbers. And this thing would be dynamic, i.e. sometimes you are outnumbered and sometimes you are outnumbering. Well that's not entirely true actually, as some of us are always outnumbered because Anet refuses to balance teams as they are supposed to.

[Dawdler.8521]

43 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

lol ok, delusion is delusion. Please post a video of how to fight 1 v 4 people and getting stomps (other than safe stomping), so you can show us how it's done.

"Post a video of how you bring the tools to stomp someone in a 1v4 but you're not allowed to use the tools you brought to stomp."

What a weird thing to demand.

[Karagee.6830]

27 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

"Post a video of how you bring the tools to stomp someone in a 1v4 but you're not allowed to use the tools you brought to stomp."

What a weird thing to demand.

By safe stomping I mean...no thief. Blowing you cds and going invulnerable, using stab etc of course that's fine. Better?

Note I'm not asking to post all the times you get destroyed and buried while trying to accomplish this, I'm just asking to show some examples of how it's done since you and the other guy seem to think it's just a matter of being skilled enough to stomp.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Draygo.9473]

11 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

By safe stomping I mean...no thief. Blowing you cds and going invulnerable, using stab etc of course that's fine. Better?

Note I'm not asking to post all the times you get destroyed and buried while trying to accomplish this, I'm just asking to show some examples of how it's done since you and the other guy seem to think it's just a matter of being skilled enough to stomp.

Again, you are invalidating a completely valid way to get a stomp because why?

Is Guardian invalid because it has easy access to stab?

Is Warrior invalid because warrior stances is easy, or they - you know - have an elite skill that literally stomps people?

Is Engineer invalid because it can go immune (tiny form) while stomping

Is Mesmer invalid because it also has a class immunity mechanic?

Is Necro invalid because it probably would rather not stomp and continue spamming giga aoe on anyone attempting to res?

 

Why do you have the right to win in a 1v4 anyway, run or get a friend or both. Its Realm vs Realm style pvp not dueling. 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 7/4/2022 at 11:58 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Then again people are also exceedingly bad at bringing the skills to stomp people.

u cannot be "bad" at not bringing certain skills, the safe stomp skills are just not very usefull if u fight heavy overnumbers. like if u fight 20v40+ u dont simply stomp single players, how would that work. too easy to get pressured down, only FBs can sometimes stomp, most of the time u won't want to risk the time that ur afk/locked in the stomp animation tho

[Dawdler.8521]

38 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

like if u fight 20v40+ u dont simply stomp single players, how would that work

I  do it all the time on my engineer with elixir S. Heck I've stomped single downs with 25 man "fight guild" stacks arriving on top because downing a few meters from it was all the time that was needed.

It is on an extremely narrow margin - you have like half a second from they go down to when you need to start stomp, if you pop elixir too early you'll go out in the middle of blob while still stomping (ie instantly CCd and dead) and if you do it too late they have time to res. You also need the escape planned with double dodges and preferably rocket boots or shield.

Even on a smaller 2v4, 5v10 etc scale this is just as critical to execute correctly because a single successfull stomp can turn the fight and a failure can loose it.

Of course, I also fail alot because nothing is fast enough when 3 res instantly (unless there is alot of damage thrown on the downed at the same time). I've missed so many stomps by like 5%. Not gonna hide the fact why I think 1:1 ressing is a good nerf.

I also use stealth to stomp when there not so much damage (and stealth friendly downs, sometimes blocking a stomp), or hope to the gods that elixir X give the right elite so I have a few seconds of stab+hp buffer without knocking what I'm trying to stomp all over the place (although admittedly, thats funny enough).

Saying "only FBs can sometimes stomp"... well thats zerg talk. I aint a zerg.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

u cannot be "bad" at not bringing certain skills, the safe stomp skills are just not very usefull if u fight heavy overnumbers. like if u fight 20v40+ u dont simply stomp single players, how would that work. too easy to get pressured down, only FBs can sometimes stomp, most of the time u won't want to risk the time that ur afk/locked in the stomp animation tho

I don't pack specific skills for it, but that's when you need to get quick stomps. You take out a couple of go-getters out of their composition and you can cascade them into scrambling to try and make up for that utility loss. That's when you can start influencing both sides of the fight to make the moves you need them to.