Dislike Group Content After Patch

[Cyninja.2954]

13 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Well your post was extremely general, so it sounded like you were talking about everything. You didn't even acknowledge some classes were left behind. 

I didn't because in many cases that is irrelevant for say open world content. If enough other classes are providing boons left and right, you will be affected.

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So you're complaining that the skill floor was reduced? THat's really all your argument comes down to when you admit that high-end players took a DPS hit. Maximum raid damage was reduced. Ergo, content is now more challenging for the 0.1% of the population capable of doing 40k DPS, which is what I thought they wanted? I thought they were bored? Now, heaven forbid, people who don't play that way are a little more effective and can enjoy the content. 

I'm not complaining about the skill floor being reduced. I even said that I was in favor of it.

I am complaining that the skill floor is being reduced AND the new class design seems to be: if it can press 1, let it have nearly all the boons (yes, I am being hyperbolic here).

The difference between 40k or 36k damage is negligible in raid content. The difference between having ever single boons left and right while just standing there is not. It just makes getting those 36k even easier. Granted, this is more a complaint from a support player, I'm sure most dps don't care that much.

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Also HAM isn't the end-all be-all. Its Stab is a liability on SH. it requres your group does a really good job of staying out of bad because corrupted stab = fear. Sure, it's strong in a lot of places. Doesn't ham still require BD? That's not for free. If you think that it's OP, that's a different story.

HAM has no stability liability on SH. I've tanked her multiple times as HAM tank. You have so many cleanses that even IF one of your members should get stability corrupted, it should get cleansed off immediately. In fact HAM tank can pretty much face-tank all her attacks with autos only until she is at 2-3 stacks, at which point you can start weaving in some barrier from F3 and barrier signet to finish up with using blocks for when she is at 4-5 stacks.

HAM does require boon duration. Which matters little if he takes on the tank, healer and primary boon support role on most fights.

I have no problem with HAM or the amount of boons the class gives (given I have resorted to using one for nearly all raid/strike content atm, as have most other groups). I have an issue with how 80% of the classes performance are provided via passive signets, passive traits and auto attack (granted, having to mange the mech like some kitten ... is fun at first).

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Out of curiousity, outside of HAM, what other classes are "giving away boons for free"? Because the catalyst nerfs seem to imply the devs are requiring BD. THough with the removal of class buffs, if they weren't aiming for reducing overall raid damage, one way to increase it is to lower the BD breakpoints for providing boons. 

Your post still sounded like the boons being provided and more widely available was an issue. Is that the case? 

Powerful boon supports which got buffed but are not as OP (or at the least not as easy to play or get used to as HFB/HAM):

- quickness scrapper

- quickness herald

- druid which now has alacrity baked in meaning a pure dps more in that sub

- HFB still the staple of pure OPness. I haven't gotten to switch away from this class for now 5 years? (and by haven't gotten to switch I mean in a performance desired setting)

- support specter has entered the battle

- support/tank vindicator has entered the battle

- quickness harbinger has entered the battle and has left his bd gear at home

- quickness warrior has... HAHAHA no, just joking (outside of quickness Bladsword). Maybe IF the revamp makes banners viable

That's pretty much where we are at atm. The only ones which didn't make the list: alacrity-condi soulbeast because that one is pure piano, tempest/catalyst because they are simply outperformed by all of those above and poor chrono who went into an identity crisis having to choose between alacrity and quickness (which might get addressed with the upcoming chrono/warrior patch).

Again, I am all in favor of having EVERY class have a proper boon support build (or multiple). What I personally want though is:

1. make it cost something, aka require boon duration and some trait/utility trade offs

2. don't put most of the output on autoattacks or passive effects and if you do, make it a trade-off by requiring traits or more boon duration

None of that is going to solve the "issue" of the game becoming easier for semi adept players, but at least the game play would remain fun imo.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Firebeard.1746]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

HAM has no stability liability on SH. I've tanked her multiple times as HAM tank. You have so many cleanses that even IF one of your members should get stability corrupted, it should get cleansed off immediately. In fact HAM tank can pretty much face-tank all her attacks with autos only until she is at 2-3 stacks, at which point you can start weaving in some barrier from F3 and barrier signet to finish up with using blocks for when she is at 4-5 stacks.

I've seen HAM go south in SH, but I also don't have the same amount of experience as you ; ). 

 

 

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

None of that is going to solve the "issue" of the game becoming easier for semi adept players, but at least the game play would remain fun imo.

I kind of would like to see classes that do these things easier and some that do it with more effort, maybe with some amount of payoff if you learn it. i like the idea of a spectrum of players can raid. I feel like simpler rotations allow newer players or less adept players to just focus on mechanics, which can be overwhelming when you're learning a new encounter. I somewhat disagree about BD. It's a dead stat in OW, because it just takes 1 other person to invalidate you with the same build And then you're just wasting your statss and dedicating a whole gear set to it sucks. 

Meh agree to disagree I guess. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I kind of would like to see classes that do these things easier and some that do it with more effort, maybe with some amount of payoff if you learn it. i like the idea of a spectrum of players can raid. I feel like simpler rotations allow newer players or less adept players to just focus on mechanics, which can be overwhelming when you're learning a new encounter. I somewhat disagree about BD. It's a dead stat in OW, because it just takes 1 other person to invalidate you with the same build And then you're just wasting your statss and dedicating a whole gear set to it sucks. 

Meh agree to disagree I guess. 

I do agree from a perspective of players having to get an entire additional set of gear. Gearing can become an issue for newer players, especially if they are inexperienced or big meta shift happen. Then again, gearing is so flat in this game, I think giving players the opportunity to work towards something that is not legendary, aka just another set of exotic gear, can go a long way in giving intermediate goals.

In an ideal world, in my opinion, balance would take into account cost of traits, utility skill and itemization. Giving players options in HOW to achieve a target goal. I don't think boons should be as easily available, or rather not at so low a cost for some classes.

There are 4 ways for a class to become "overpowered" in this game basically:

1. it does something very useful no one else can, or can to this extent (aegis and stab on firebrand for example, unique modifiers pre change, alacrity+quickness on chrono, etc.)

2. it sacrifices very little in order to gain a specific utility (quickness catalyst pre nerf, quickness bladesworn atm, quickness harbinger, etc.)

3. it sacrifices more in form of traits, utilities and gear but also but gains insane amounts of utility (fireband and ham are prime examples)

4. it is VERY easy to play in regards to output it brings. Be it damage, support or utility or a combination of all those

Those are the 4 "pillars" around which group setups are made and defined. Some classes check multiple boxes, others not even 1. Best example is current banner warrior. Can he give perma quickness rather easily? Sure. What does he sacrifice? Nearly everything (multiple traits, utility skills, stats). What does he provide? Irrelevant boons which the sub groups healer will bring already (which warrior can't full-fill really), low damage and perma quickness. Outclassed by most other quickness providers. As is, banner warrior checks some of the 4 points but lacks behind in the others so much, it is undesirable because his direct competition simply checks more of the points.

Anyway, as you said, agree to disagree. In the end let's hope the developers find a good middle ground to make the fun for as many players as possible.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

In fairness I've injected "YOLO" into my fractal group descriptions only to get some over-optimizing kitten still joining and proceeding to scream at us. That's another point when I gave up on trying anything off-meta. 

Yeah sure and if you give up after one example of being infected by metapushing players in your team ... they win and the game shifts to how they want people to play it. That becomes the standard behaviour and they persist. Trust me, there are MORE people that want to play YOLO than there are metapushers in this game. They will simply self-extinct through their exclusive behaviour if you don't let them behave that way in your teams. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Firebeard.1746]

20 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Anyway, as you said, agree to disagree. In the end let's hope the developers find a good middle ground to make the fun for as many players as possible.

I can agree with this!

[yavi.3105]

On 7/1/2022 at 11:42 AM, Voyant.1327 said:

of another game when the speed got so outta hand it starts making the levels not worth playing (Warframe)

 

tl;dr - Warframe was at its absolutely best when you could speedclear, its not worth playing if you can't. Farmable content is a chore to do, not a fun challenge - the faster you get it the better. If it slowed down I just wouldn't bother with it, i'm there to make my gold asap not to have "fun" doing the same fractal for 89347234732480 time (or farming my 100+th forma in WF 😛 )

 

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make sure there's no quickness/superspeed in the group

Run with 4 or 3 ppl if you wanna a slower experience. Its not speed that is weird, its your self-nerfing that is.

Edited July 15, 2022 by yavi.3105

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 7/13/2022 at 1:14 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Now everyone can feel bored in open world content and either feel pressured to do instanced content

I think the part I bolded is explicitly what ANet wants now. We heard in the most recent summer roadmap thing that the push for raid accessibility was specifically with the Steam launch in mind. I openly suspected this was the case.

Raid accessibility is fine, I guess. I don't really care either way as I farmed all 3 legendary armor weights in spvp and got the 8 extra HoT mastery numbers from a few boss kills, picking up some interesting raid-only story bits along the way. That game mode really has nothing left to offer me other than inconvenience and wasted time. However, I'm a firm believer that more access is generally a good thing, so that players who desire the content can, you know, get to that content.

My problem is that the raid and instanced group content accessibility push is severely impacting  what I consider GW2's central and most enduring attraction, which is the value of buildcraft. It hasn't quite gotten to the point of full homogenization (largely because many classes are an absolute dumpster fire in terms of fulfilling important support roles), but the boons-for-all-without-even-thinking-about-it feels like a huge step in the wrong direction.

As with everything in business, it's all just a matter of cost-benefit analysis. Obviously a successful Steam launch founded on making GW2 more appealing to a much wider swath of players has revenue benefits. But if the cost of grabbing those benefits is to betray and degrade the core value of your product, the cost of taking this direction may ultimately outlive whatever shorter-term benefits you were chasing in the first place.

I think ANet and the industry needs to take a page from -ugh- Black Desert here. We here in Tyria complain about content droughts, but frankly BDO is even more ridiculously stale and full of empty updates that solve none of that game's underlying problems. Yet, for all that, I'm pretty certain that BDO's been in much better financial shape than GW2 for its entire run. I believe a big part of that stability and success - despite the various degrees of mismanagement and shockingly high proportion of dead-on-arrival content added to that game - has to do with BDO's devs understanding the core value of their products: top tier waifu customization, gambling addiction, and plate armor with high heels and bare midriffs. For all the nonsense those devs get into, they never, ever stray far from those core ideas.

Of course those core ideas are also why that game will never fulfill its true potential in many respects, but they're also why the game soldiers along quite admirably despite all its faults.

Edited July 15, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Nephalem.8921]

On 7/14/2022 at 7:23 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

The difference between 40k or 36k damage is negligible in raid content. The difference between having ever single boons left and right while just standing there is not. It just makes getting those 36k even easier. Granted, this is more a complaint from a support player, I'm sure most dps don't care that much.

Unless you are doing ht cm, ankka title or even ko cm.

Encounters with actual dps checks or in ko cm's case hard mechanics you dont want to repeat multiple times. the difference is not negligible and rather massive if you compare one group with only 36k players and the other one with only 40k players. it doesnt matter in easy powercreeped content. it matters a lot in challenging content which most raids just arent.

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Unless you are doing ht cm, ankka title or even ko cm.

Encounters with actual dps checks or in ko cm's case hard mechanics you dont want to repeat multiple times. the difference is not negligible and rather massive if you compare one group with only 36k players and the other one with only 40k players. it doesnt matter in easy powercreeped content.

True, but this:

3 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

it matters a lot in challenging content which most raids just arent.

was exactly what I was getting at. Lowering the skill ceiling in just about all content, bar 1-2 of the new CMs, has no notable effect. At least far less than making boon setups boring.

 

[Voyant.1327]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:03 AM, yavi.3105 said:

tl;dr - Warframe was at its absolutely best when you could speedclear, its not worth playing if you can't. Farmable content is a chore to do, not a fun challenge - the faster you get it the better.

Run with 4 or 3 ppl if you wanna a slower experience. Its not speed that is weird, its your self-nerfing that is.

That's your mindset. I don't look for games to be efficient/speedclear thats what work/life is for. Games are meant to be relaxing to enjoy something.

Defeating a level in 45 seconds to the point you don't even see the map like in Warframe is not playing a game. Its racing to rewards, essentially a lot closer to the I win button philosophy. Diverse builds are useless in a game with such insane speed/power creep. 

And its just an outlook, I don't hate that the modern gamer seeks instant gratification through near cheat code level ability spam.... I just ask that those of us who enjoy gameplay for the sake of gameplay itself be left with that option. Speedclear if you want, me I'm looking for the challenge. 

Great comparison right now is t4 fractals vs others (t3 finally seems to be coming back down to chill.) In t4 its basically braindead autopiloting and boring beyond belief, feeling like you're floating above the content 90% of the time. In t3 you gotta work because you know someone is going down or you don't have healers & its everyone for themselves. Its a great time filled with laughs and people coming together to be rewarded with a hard fought victory.... T4 its ty, gg leave party repeat. No variety. No spice or excitement just basically emulating a bot. To me I think its crazy people actually enjoy that, but again if you do more power to you. Don't want you denied that option, wouldn't want steps taken to remove it or endanger it even if I think its silly personally...

After all game how you want to play!

Edited July 22, 2022 by Voyant.1327

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Voyant.1327 said:

That's your mindset. I don't look for games to be efficient/speedclear thats what work/life is for. Games are meant to be relaxing to enjoy something.

It's one thing not to want to put an additional effort in to optimize or run something efficiently -but from what you've said, you're actively adding work for yourself to intentionally slow down any random group you get into. That is pretty weird.

I also don't exactly understand why it's connected to this specific patch. Perma-quickness was already a widespread thing before the patch. Were you not already looking for squads without it?

Edited July 22, 2022 by Sobx.1758