The main takeaway message from these 25-30k dps auto attack builds

[Kozumi.5816]

 

On 7/5/2022 at 3:09 PM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

The problem is that if you reward more complex rotations than those that are not, then elitist players will want you to play those more complex builds and to be honest not everyone likes playing classes with 40 buttons to press and remember.

If I wanted to play a mobile autobattler game I'd turn on my phone.

[Tails.9372]

30 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Mukluk's video is still up

You mean the video that shows him having all buffs from the console while also having all conditions applied to the golem? Getting debunked by your own source... imagine my surprise.

30 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Do your due diligence.

How about you do your due diligence and show us actual proof of someone doing "24-25k AA only unbuffed, no debuffs and no food"? I mean I already know that you can't even if you wanted to because it was impossible to pull these numbers under your specified conditions but you're the one making the claim so go on, show me how "wrong" I am with indisputable evidence.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Karagee.6830]

8 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

You mean the video that shows him having all buffs from the console while also having all conditions applied to the golem?

Alright it seems he changed the settings halfway through the video

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Tails.9372]

10 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

And no boon whatsoever lmfao. Learn before you post.

You might want to read up on what a boon is.

[Tails.9372]

40 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Yeah sure, ignoramus, you might have missed the first part of the video...

What was there to miss? You couldn't see any DPS numbers up until "1:29" and if he did 24k with all console buffs / debuffs then his DPS would obviously be significantly lower without them.

 

40 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

the general point that you are wrong and delusional about this

Which you have yet to prove, but I guess that's the difference between us. I would actually be happy to learn that there is something major I (and everyone else who tried to show off the "AA only" numbers) missed while you on the other hand, for whatever reason, seem to be hellbent on being dismissive to what the other side of the argument is presenting to you.

 

40 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-egyJG8sU8

That only shows how much a buffed engi with the flamethrower kit AA can do vs. a debuffed golem but this does nothing to support your previous claim about how much an unbuffed "AA only" rifle engi can do on its own.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Karagee.6830]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

Which you have yet to prove, but I guess that's the difference between us. I would actually be happy to learn that there is something major I (and everyone else who tried to show off the "AA only" numbers) missed while you on the other hand, for whatever reason, seem to be hellbent on being dismissive to what the other side of the argument is presenting to you.

I literally just posted a video where a guy does 29k+ on the golem and you, in your delusion, are still insisting that your take of 25k dps is valid and people don't know what they are talking about. And you talk about learning? Even if I never find the log again, and given the level you and the other guy have displayed I'm very much not inclined to do so anymore, I already proved right here and now that you were completely wrong and you have spouted a bunch of factually inaccurate statements about rifle mechanist as it was nowhere near 24-25k dps.

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

That only shows how much a buffed engi with the flamethrower kit AA can do vs. a debuffed golem but this does nothing to support your previous claim about how much an unbuffed "AA only" rifle engi can do on its own.

Ah and now we're moving the goalposts. Congrats, you are doing it all. I never talked about engineer in general, I always talked about mechanist and everyone I've engaged with has been talking about mechanist. Move on.

Edit: oh I see you are now trying to save face by pointing out I didn't notice that Mukluk's video was edited and at some point he went from unbuffed to buffed? And that should prove that rifle mech was doing 25k and those who said 30k don't know what they are talking about or are lying (your exact words) when I provided evidence already of the contrary?

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

Nvm, I still can't find the 31k rifle, unfortunately. In the meantime enjoy this 31.6k mace mech afk video thea made at the time. Note that she said that could have been improved with lifesteal food and writ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVQZyZlCnUk

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Tails.9372]

43 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

I never talked about engineer in general, I always talked about mechanist and everyone I've engaged with has been talking about mechanist.

You don't seem to understand what "moving the goalpost" means but a mechanist is an engineer and making it about "engineer in general" would only serve to give you more options to prove your point. The one that actually is trying to move the goalpost here however is you going from:

On 7/6/2022 at 1:12 AM, Karagee.6830 said:

rifle mech doing 31.5k. 24-25k was unbuffed, like literally no buffs, no debuffs on the boss

to posting videos of people A: not using rifle, B: being fully buffed and C : have debuffs on the golem as if this would support your previous claim in any way, shape or form.

So yes, my:

On 7/7/2022 at 12:30 AM, Tails.9372 said:

Ofc. the around 25k "AFK AA only" numbers were with all important buffs / debuffs on the training golem, everyone who claimed otherwise was either lying or didn't knew what he was talking about.

still holds true and it will continue to do so until proven otherwise (which, if your claim was true, would have been an easy thing to do).

Edited July 8, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Karagee.6830]

22 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

You don't seem to understand what "moving the goalpost" means but a mechanist is an engineer and making it about "engineer in general" would only serve to give you more options to make your point.

Nope, because Mech was broken (and subsequently nerfed), not rifle, but I don't expect you to understand this. Hence, I never mentioned rifle holos or scrapper.

You literally posted a chart with only autoattacks (ie. no mech) in this discussion...just saying.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Cait Sith.4650]

I recall these two, if it will add anything to this discussion.
 

 

 

[Karagee.6830]

16 minutes ago, Cait Sith.4650 said:

I recall these two, if it will add anything to this discussion.
 

 

 

Bomb kit was at 32k as well, but you see they will tell you rifle was doing 20-25k because it's hard to find an optimised build video right now as it was only possible for a couple of days and everyone knew that mace was still the highest afk dps so they all did videos with that. 

You know, @Tails.9372 here clearly believes that the drop in dps by going from mace to rifle is anywhere between -12k dps and -7k dps...

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[ThunderX.6591]

From checking the images, first video is the bomb kit mecha, the second is the normal mace + turret extra damage mecha, all are power i suppose, the damage is normal for what i can see in a full buff build, but i don't see the rifle.

Rifle alone is obviously lower dps....... i tested it but that was before 01/07 hot fix, so, if you want the new last time result, write it here, and i will go redo the test again (really, i know the damage will be less than the one i get before hot fix, and testing take times to prepare even if you test 111111 only skill).

 

[Karagee.6830]

21 minutes ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

From checking the images, first video is the bomb kit mecha, the second is the normal mace + turret extra damage mecha, all are power i suppose, the damage is normal for what i can see in a full buff build, but i don't see the rifle.

Rifle alone is obviously lower dps....... i tested it but that was before 01/07 hot fix, so, if you want the new last time result, write it here, and i will go redo the test again (really, i know the damage will be less than the one i get before hot fix, and testing take times to prepare even if you test 111111 only skill).

 

Would you say that comparing mace mech pre and post nerf patch and rifle mech pre and post nerf patch would be reasonable? I would contend the difference is more now, because they have nerfed the damage from procs that on a faster weapon, with virtually no AA delay like the rifle was, would guarantee they'd go off cd every time. If rifle afk build does 12k dps less than mace afk build then @Tails.9372 is right and rifle realistically was doing 20-25k dps pre nerf. 

I think I've seen comparisons between rifle autos and other weapons/kit and they were a 5k dps drop compared to the bomb kit pre nerf patch. Mace was lower than kit as well...and mace afk mech benched 31,953 before the nerf patch.

This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36yojdoGOnY

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Kuma.1503]

5 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Hahaha, misinformation? You need to educate yourself before you talk. The 31.5k was an Arcdps log from reddit. Mukluk has a video where he casually tried rifle to check the autoattacks right after the patch and you can see the game itself reporting between 24k-25k dps with rifle, unbuffed, with no food. 

Hold on... You mean this video?

The video where he has every buff and every condition on the golem? And benchmarks 24.3k?

First, a quick rundown on how benchmarks work. The standard number of conditions on a golem is 10. Source: https://snowcrows.com/guides/getting-started/special-forces-area

In this video, Mukluk has 13 conditions on the golem. For some classes this does not matter, for Engineer this does matter because of the trait Modified Amunition. Putting more than 10 conditions on a golem leads to unrealistic results because this trait will apply an extra 6% damage to the golem. 

This is also pre hotfix. Not only are these numbers inflated, they're no longer relevant. Rifle autos have been slowed down due to the added aftercast, and ranged mech autos have their damage reduced by nearly half. 

• Damage multiplier reduced from 0.6 to 0.35 in PvE and from 0.28 to 0.2 in PvP and WvW.
  • Wiki note: This change is related to the autoattack skill Jade Energy Shot.

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Karagee.6830]

42 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Hold on... You mean this video?

The video where he has every buff and every condition on the golem? And benchmarks 24.3k?

First, a quick rundown on how benchmarks work. The standard number of conditions on a golem is 10. Source: https://snowcrows.com/guides/getting-started/special-forces-area

In this video, Mukluk has 13 conditions on the golem. For some classes this does not matter, for Engineer this does matter because of the trait Modified Amunition. Putting more than 10 conditions on a golem leads to unrealistic results because this trait will apply an extra 6% damage to the golem. 

This is also pre hotfix. Not only are these numbers inflated, they're no longer relevant. Rifle autos have been slowed down due to the added aftercast, and ranged mech autos have their damage reduced by nearly half. 

• Damage multiplier reduced from 0.6 to 0.35 in PvE and from 0.28 to 0.2 in PvP and WvW.
  • Wiki note: This change is related to the autoattack skill Jade Energy Shot.

 

 

 

Your point and the other guy's also is that pre-nerf rifle afk mechanist was doing 20-25k and nobody proved otherwise. Mace was benching 32k afk, do we agree? Mukluk started without boons or food but then he did have them later on, we don't know what build he used, but it's largely irrelevant as it wasn't optimised he was just checking the look and feel more than anything else.

If we are taking what you say about the 30/6 nerf, then the difference between mace and rifle should be higher than pre nerf, do you agree? You should agree since you and the other guy have also disputed some stealth buffs that others reported on the engineer forums.

Now, please take a valid build for rifle and one for mace (i.e. don't cheat by artificially depressing rifle numbers), go to the golem and show us the difference in dps just by using autoattacks. Then we take the difference, we deduct that number from 32k and we go from there. Since the difference between rifle and mace is higher now than before 30/6, we are actually helping your case. As long as you prove that rifle does 7-12k less dps than mace on AA, I have no problem to concede that you were right claiming that rifle was only doing 20-25k.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[ThunderX.6591]

Ok, wasted same hours, and done some golem test.

Used a Condi Soul half hybrid dagger, and the Mecha power for the test..

Result (full boons and full condi on golem, 1M hp normal golem)

 

Souldbeast 1111111 + 3 condi istant skill and merged with condi pet resulted in around 19k-20k dps.

Can do more as full power meta build with another weapon instead of the dagger. (i have this, and wanted to test the dps after the hot fix to check the effects on my build).

 

Mecha............ full berserker gear, 11111111 rifle AND mace., Explosive and firearm specialization, all the traits with extra damage on it, AARocket, and mecha trait ranged one (For AARocket) and the rest was all bonus damage and help mecha can get, full bonus boon, and full condi on the golem.

Result are, well, as predicted, a kind of a waste of the time spent.

I had literally predicted the damage of the rifle 11111 after hot fix 01/07, but had secretly hoped to get a bit more dps on the mace test part).

Rifle Mecha get around 21k - 22k dps, stable, no big fluctuation, Mace Mecha start around 24k-25k dps, and stabilize around 23k dps. (used only mace 11111 and rifle 1111111, no Golem skill or other damage like turret, full power sigil and elite sigil). Golem was immobilize, 0 skill used.

Hot fix lost mecha around 2k dps from all build from the test resul, and probably, the rifle build lost an extra 1k dps from Rifle nerf time 111111 skill (but this are my personal calculation, nothing official for the moment).

[Raizel.8175]

Can you guys please get your kitten together and stop talking about benchmarks? The reason why Rifle Mechnist is a problem isn't that it benches really high with only auto attacks, but that that benchmarks nearly translates 1:1 into actual encounters since the build has no downsides whatsoever - no resources to manage, no key rotation parts, no important self-buffs, no need for positioning, etc. On builds that actually require some effort, you're screwed if you can't do key parts of your rotation due to mechanics and/or bad RNG or if your important self-buffs are wasted due to bad RNG or phasing. As Rifle Mechanist, you only have to blast away. YOU. LITERALLY. ONLY. HAVE. TO. BLAST. AWAY. Is it that hard to understand?

[Karagee.6830]

38 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Can you guys please get your kitten together and stop talking about benchmarks? The reason why Rifle Mechnist is a problem isn't that it benches really high with only auto attacks, but that that benchmarks nearly translates 1:1 into actual encounters since the build has no downsides whatsoever - no resources to manage, no key rotation parts, no important self-buffs, no need for positioning, etc. On builds that actually require some effort, you're screwed if you can't do key parts of your rotation due to mechanics and/or bad RNG or if your important self-buffs are wasted due to bad RNG or phasing. As Rifle Mechanist, you only have to blast away. YOU. LITERALLY. ONLY. HAVE. TO. BLAST. AWAY. Is it that hard to understand?

This is all true, it's obvious that this not being melee and not having to manage absolutely anything (and in fact you could put some other skill on auto, so it goes off cd and you just spam 1) this would comparatively do much more dps in actual encounters than most other builds, but we are at a more basic level of misconception here. We are trying to debunk the claim from engineer diehard fans like @Kuma.1503 and @Tails.9372 that the criticism for rifle mechanist after the patch was greatly misplaced and terribly wrong and the nerf from Anet was totally unjustified (paraphrasing from engi threads), because we have no record of people optimizing for the golem and using the best possible setup. However unfortunately we do have a record of people doing 32k afk dps on mace in optimal conditions and therefore even their pitiful attempts at deflecting, degrading the level of discourse and avoiding the very relevant issues you mentioned, by saying that afk rifle was doing 20-25k at best, are also blatantly ludicrous.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

55 minutes ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Ok, wasted same hours, and done some golem test.

Used a Condi Soul half hybrid dagger, and the Mecha power for the test..

Result (full boons and full condi on golem, 1M hp normal golem)

 

Souldbeast 1111111 + 3 condi istant skill and merged with condi pet resulted in around 19k-20k dps.

Can do more as full power meta build with another weapon instead of the dagger. (i have this, and wanted to test the dps after the hot fix to check the effects on my build).

 

Mecha............ full berserker gear, 11111111 rifle AND mace., Explosive and firearm specialization, all the traits with extra damage on it, AARocket, and mecha trait ranged one (For AARocket) and the rest was all bonus damage and help mecha can get, full bonus boon, and full condi on the golem.

Result are, well, as predicted, a kind of a waste of the time spent.

I had literally predicted the damage of the rifle 11111 after hot fix 01/07, but had secretly hoped to get a bit more dps on the mace test part).

Rifle Mecha get around 21k - 22k dps, stable, no big fluctuation, Mace Mecha start around 24k-25k dps, and stabilize around 23k dps. (used only mace 11111 and rifle 1111111, no Golem skill or other damage like turret, full power sigil and elite sigil). Golem was immobilize, 0 skill used.

Hot fix lost mecha around 2k dps from all build from the test resul, and probably, the rifle build lost an extra 1k dps from Rifle nerf time 111111 skill (but this are my personal calculation, nothing official for the moment).

 

Cool. How do you explain:

 

7 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

 

This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36yojdoGOnY

 

 

[ThunderX.6591]

Is it that hard to understand that literally "every" class can do over 20k dps 1111111 only with their top dps build BUT people in raid want around 30k or kick from the high level players group?

Do you seriously think now mecha in raid group use 11111 rifle spam and nothing else?

If so, why Virtuoso are more used or harbringer take space that from your talking are robbed from Mecha?

I did fractal with mecha after hot fix, was Alac mecha, but we had another alac in party, so, all happy to test the Rifle build and be a "good DPS", i switched (same build i used to do the test), and during the run, a person asked me if i was really using dps gear on my mecha........ cause my dps was lacking for him. And i was using the 1111111 build on anything that moved in the fractal, but for him, i was not using dps gear......

In August, Mecha will be nerfed again, so, make peace with the class, and play the class you are protecting crying against "the bad OP Mecha build" that was a lot stronger before patch 28/06 and hot fix 01/07 hit it.

Is the exact same thing with guard, no matter what real proof you give about the DPS builds nerfed more than anything else by the patch and despite all that (with bencmark test to prove it), people continue to say "guard is OP after the patch", or "patch did nothing to guard build" and more.

[ThunderX.6591]

Some extra add.

You are Ranged, for AARocket to cast you need a bit of range, BUT at the same time, you need to stay "meele" to get the party boons share, stay in the group for healing and normally, you do't run around for your "ranged thing".

You need to consider all that too.

Obviously, if we are talking about PVE run around the maps to do events, literally whatever class do good in a zerk group, you simply need to hit things with enough damage to count for trigger the medal reward.

[Karagee.6830]

1 minute ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Do you seriously think now mecha in raid group use 11111 rifle spam and nothing else?

I do. Why would I need to actually do a rotation when I can play something that allows me to cook, go to the toilet or watch tv while raiding?

Also you are clearly overestimating players. A lot of people aren't capable of getting close to the benchmarks, all those people will play...rifle mechanist.

4 minutes ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

I did fractal with mecha after hot fix, was Alac mecha, but we had another alac in party, so, all happy to test the Rifle build and be a "good DPS", i switched (same build i used to do the test), and during the run, a person asked me if i was really using dps gear on my mecha........ cause my dps was lacking for him. And i was using the 1111111 build on anything that moved in the fractal, but for him, i was not using dps gear......

Listen, I will use the same argument that engi players used to justify mechanist being completely OP. It's a matter of player skill if you can't hit those numbers or a matter of knowledge if you are using a subpar build: the class is OP, the player not so much.

Besides that what can I say other than player skill? In fractals you don't have all the boons and the enemy does not have 10 conditions, so you are already twice removed from a golem scenario, potions, AR etc also alter your damage and stats, so I'm not sure how relevant this is.

11 minutes ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

In August, Mecha will be nerfed again

And exactly 25 elite specializations will thank ANet for finally doing some balancing. Everyone except mechanists and firebrands.

13 minutes ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Is the exact same thing with guard, no matter what real proof you give about the DPS builds nerfed more than anything else by the patch and despite all that (with bencmark test to prove it), people continue to say "guard is OP after the patch", or "patch did nothing to guard build" and more.

I'm a fractal god and I play exclusively firebrand in fractals and I have nothing to say to people who do not understand why firebrand is so OP and why the patch has done nothing to reduce how OP it is.

[Karagee.6830]

4 minutes ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Some extra add.

You are Ranged, for AARocket to cast you need a bit of range, BUT at the same time, you need to stay "meele" to get the party boons share, stay in the group for healing and normally, you do't run around for your "ranged thing".

You need to consider all that too.

Obviously, if we are talking about PVE run around the maps to do events, literally whatever class do good in a zerk group, you simply need to hit things with enough damage to count for trigger the medal reward.

No you don't need to consider any of that. What you need to consider is that if you move to do mechanics or the boss moves, a melee dps will have some downtime and you won't. You are welcome

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Kuma.1503]

51 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

This is all true, it's obvious that this not being melee and not having to manage absolutely anything (and in fact you could put some other skill on auto, so it goes off cd and you just spam 1) this would comparatively do much more dps in actual encounters than most other builds, but we are at a more basic level of misconception here. We are trying to debunk the claim from engineer diehard fans like @Kuma.1503 and @Tails.9372 that the criticism for rifle mechanist after the patch was greatly misplaced and terribly wrong and the nerf from Anet was totally unjustified (paraphrasing from engi threads), because we have no record of people optimizing for the golem and using the best possible setup. However unfortunately we do have a record of people doing 32k afk dps on mace in optimal conditions and therefore even their pitiful attempts at deflecting, degrading the level of discourse and avoiding the very relevant issues you mentioned, by saying that afk rifle was doing 20-25k at best, are also blatantly ludicrous.

The general consensus from the Engi threads is that nerfs should be focused on Mechanist and not on rifle. Core engi prior to Rifle buffs lacked a good core power weapon. Rifle has been underperforming for a very long time as far as power weapons go, and post buff it's just decent. This is evidenced by the fact that Mechanist with flamethrower, mace, grenades ect. is able to bench higher than they can with rifle, with grenades obviously also being ranged and flamethrower being semi-ranged. 

There's also the fact that up until now you've been spreading blatant lies and misinformation, and attempting (very poorly) to deflect attention away from that fact. You've been called out numerous times on this, and have been presented with clear undisputed evidence to the contrary.

Each time you are called out you have sneakily attempted deflect or move goalposts, and when called out on that, you accuse others of doing precisely what you yourself are doing. 

It's clear that you're not interested in having an honest conversation, and It would be safe to asume that you've got some underlying biases which cloud your ability to accurately take in information. Evidence fo this can be gleamed from you snarkily mis-recounting the video where Mukluk benches 24k fully buffed as opposed to unbuffed. 

Then snarkily trying to "educate" others on how benchmarks work while using an example of benchmark done using an incorrect set-up. Frankly, the irony is so thick here you could cut it with a knife. 

 

 

 

[Karagee.6830]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The general consensus from the Engi threads is that nerfs should be focused on Mechanist and not on rifle. Core engi prior to Rifle buffs lacked a good core power weapon. Rifle has been underperforming for a very long time as far as power weapons go, and post buff it's just decent. This is evidenced by the fact that Mechanist with flamethrower, mace, grenades ect. is able to bench higher than they can with rifle, with grenades obviously also being ranged and flamethrower being semi-ranged. 

There's also the fact that up until now you've been spreading blatant lies and misinformation, and attempting (very poorly) to deflect attention away from that fact. You've been called out numerous times on this, and have been presented with clear undisputed evidence to the contrary.

Each time you are called out you have sneakily attempted deflect or move goalposts, and when called out on that, you accuse others of doing precisely what you yourself are doing. 

It's clear that you're not interested in having an honest conversation, and It would be safe to asume that you've got some underlying biases which cloud your ability to accurately take in information. Evidence fo this can be gleamed from you snarkily mis-recounting the video where Mukluk benches 24k fully buffed as opposed to unbuffed. 

Then snarkily trying to "educate" others on how benchmarks work while using an example of benchmark done using an incorrect set-up. Frankly, the irony is so thick here you could cut it with a knife. 

 

 

 

Not really, I have always and exclusively talked about mechanist, but you have preferred to try to muddle the water and try to paint me as someone having a problem with the changes to rifle in genearl, including holosmith/scrapper, when my beef is entirely and exclusively with the mechanist. Question for you, why do you think we didn't the same benchmarks and videos for rifle holo and scrapper for pve purposes? Because they weren't a problem. Mechanist was. And Mechanist is even more of a problem considering the utility it can bring in a pve setting.

The Mukluk's video was a honest mistake because I didn't watch it in its entirety and just went to the comments once it was clear it was just autoattacking unbuffed. The comments mentioned the 24k mark so I assumed it was unbuffed as the first part of the video was. This does not excuse your pathetic attempts to say that rifle is 8k dps below mace in a similar setting (32k v 24k) or 12k since you've been throwing around this 20k dps mark. Irony indeed, you couldn't make this stuff up.

We understand, you guys can keep whining and moaning that the bad non-engi players (and also holo/scrappers who don't like mechanist) are out for blood for no reason whatsoever, when every single normal person see the video of a mechanist doing literally 32k with just autoattacks and sees plenty of reasons why this is not balanced nor smart. But yeah, if you put your two great minds together, I'm sure sooner or later you will come up with a perfectly reasonable explanation on how mace afk was doing 32k, but rifle afk was doing 20k or 24k.

Just know that until you do, you have z.e.r.o. credibility. I would suggest a quantum theory explanation...and until then I will be here reminding everyone how you guys said mace was doing 32k and rifle 20k (or 24k in case of mr.whoeversay25kislying), so they can understand for themselves how full of it you two are.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Karagee.6830