When and Why was Dragon's End named (or renamed) in-Universe?

[Magix Keleton.9083]

I understand why it was named that way thematically in terms of gameplay, but I don't quite follow why the Ministry of Archives would install commemorative plaques following the fall of the Ministry of Purity, when Soo-Won only recently retreated there to die...?

Is there textual evidence outside of speculation that I haven't picked up on?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

Its a double meaning, and actually has little to do with Soo-Won. Cantha is known as the Empire of the Dragon, and the Jade Sea is the location of a nearly-apocalyptic event from their past.

 

When you see the word "dragon" in Cantha, its not related to the Elder Dragons (usually), as per GW1.

 

See also:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shiro_Tagachi

Edited July 11, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Magix Keleton.9083]

1 hour ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

Its a double meaning, and actually has little to do with Soo-Won. Cantha is known as the Empire of the Dragon, and the Jade Sea is the location of a nearly-apocalyptic event from their past.

 

When you see the word "dragon" in alot of the content, its not related to the Elder Dragons usually.

 

See also:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shiro_Tagachi

Is there something in particular I should be looking at in regards to Shiro that you wanted to point out...?

That the naming of Dragon's End has little to do with Soo-Won is actually what sparked my interest. The Ministry of Archives have erected a plaque that's found in the Xinrae's Wharf area commemorating an historic event from the immediate post-Jade-Wind era. However the events of Factions never (to my knowledge) made mention of Dragon's End as an identifiable region of the Jade Sea (regardless of whether we could go there or not, happy to be wrong).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Historic_Plaque

It's true that the stretch of land between the Jade Quarry and the Harvest Temple was unexplored at that time (by players, since Xinrae may well have explored this area regardless of what it was called), and it's this stretch that makes up the bulk of modern Dragon's End. But this plaque has been erected some time in the ~100 year span following the collapse of the Ministry of Purity, and it's at the point of installation that this region of the Jade Sea is now recognised as 'Dragon's End'.

Is there a non-speculative reason as to why it was named that though, without referring to meta sources that make sense to us?

If we were going to give in to speculation though, I'd say it's because this geographic location probably rests at the periphery of the Empire of the Dragon's influence (like a tail, heh). But counter to that too, is the notion that Dragon's End hosts the location of the Tyrian plane's origin, and arguably the Dragon Empire's raison d'etre at Kuan Jun. So it's more like a Dragon's Beginning? Poignant.

edit: ooh, also I found this:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Xunlai_Security_Update

Fa diverts his attention to containment in 'Jade Sea', rather than 'the Jade Sea', or better yet, 'Dragon's End'.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Magix Keleton.9083
Missed detail

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Don't remember where I read it, but I recall reading that "Dragon's End" is referencing the edge of Imperial territory. Though that doesn't quite make sense to me, as either it's excluding the Luxons and Kurzicks' vassal state territories and Imperial territory wedged between the two, which then means they fought on imperial ground for nearly a millennia, or it's simply wrong (esp. from context of Xinrea's time) as GW1 has the territory stretching both further east and south in the Jade Sea.

 

3 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

However the events of Factions never (to my knowledge) made mention of Dragon's End as an identifiable region of the Jade Sea (regardless of whether we could go there or not, happy to be wrong).

You're correct. Dragon's End is a new phrase for End of Dragons, clearly playing on the Dragon-named maps tied to Elder Dragon fights (Dragon's Stand, Dragonfall, Dragonstorm, Dragon's End) and they only added it to lore retroactively (as opposed to keeping the name purely mechanical). For whatever reason, dialogue uses Dragon's End and Jade Sea interchangeably despite them not really being the same thing (Jade Sea is much larger than just Dragon's End).

Edited July 11, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Don't remember where I read it, but I recall reading that "Dragon's End" is referencing the edge of Imperial territory. Though that doesn't quite make sense to me, as either it's excluding the Luxons and Kurzicks' vassal state territories and Imperial territory wedged between the two, which then means they fought on imperial ground for nearly a millennia, or it's simply wrong (esp. from context of Xinrea's time) as GW1 has the territory stretching both further east and south in the Jade Sea.

There's NPCs at The Sanctuary of Lone in Silent surf(or somewhere around there) that mention that the "Jade Expanse" POI area is the furtherst anyone has explored on the Jade Sea since its change into pure jade, and no one knows whats beyond it.

[Magix Keleton.9083]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Don't remember where I read it, but I recall reading that "Dragon's End" is referencing the edge of Imperial territory. Though that doesn't quite make sense to me, as either it's excluding the Luxons and Kurzicks' vassal state territories and Imperial territory wedged between the two, which then means they fought on imperial ground for nearly a millennia, or it's simply wrong (esp. from context of Xinrea's time) as GW1 has the territory stretching both further east and south in the Jade Sea.

Since the forced annexation of Kurzick and Luxon territories by Emperor Usoku in 1637CC, the Empire has effectively controlled the lands previously held by Luxons for roughly the last 200 years of modern history. So in the intervening years following the decline of the Ministry of Purity, it's unlikely that regions like Unwaking Waters would be considered part of a distinct vassal state. As by that point, they'd already been absorbed into the empire for 100 years. However while Unwaking Waters was the furthest south Luxon controlled lands by GW1's standard, it's true that it wasn't the furthest east. With Silent Surf on the south-east cusp of this land, it'll be interesting to explore future releases to see whether the Canthan Empire was inclined to maintain a presence in the east Jade Sea at all since the Ministry's purges, or if Dragon's End has been more aptly named that I thought.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

Since the forced annexation of Kurzick and Luxon territories by Emperor Usoku in 1637CC, the Empire has effectively controlled the lands previously held by Luxons for roughly the last 200 years of modern history. So in the intervening years following the decline of the Ministry of Purity, it's unlikely that regions like Unwaking Waters would be considered part of a distinct vassal state.

Per the dialogue you quoted though, the name comes from long before GW1 by EoD lore. By this viewpoint, it just wouldn't be renamed for the ~100 years the Ministry of Purity were in power under Emperors Usoku, Kyobok, and Bitgaram.

3 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

As by that point, they'd already been absorbed into the empire for 100 years. However while Unwaking Waters was the furthest south Luxon controlled lands by GW1's standard, it's true that it wasn't the furthest east.

It was only the "furthest south Luxon controlled lands" that we visited. There's no dialogue in GW1 implying that's as far south as they went - and nothing in the landscape (especially in GW2's open edge landscape) that would prevent exploration. Which makes that one dialogue about "no one exploring since the Jade Wind" to be very, very weird for 300 years to pass and the notoriously adventurous nomad Luxons never going to find out how that end of the Jade Sea fared in the Jade Wind when they apparently knew the lands before the Jade Wind.

[Magix Keleton.9083]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Per the dialogue you quoted though, the name comes from long before GW1 by EoD lore. By this viewpoint, it just wouldn't be renamed for the ~100 years the Ministry of Purity were in power under Emperors Usoku, Kyobok, and Bitgaram.

Yeah, that's what the plaque seems to imply, right? That Dragon's End has been known by that name for a long time...

 

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It was only the "furthest south Luxon controlled lands" that we visited. There's no dialogue in GW1 implying that's as far south as they went - and nothing in the landscape (especially in GW2's open edge landscape) that would prevent exploration. Which makes that one dialogue about "no one exploring since the Jade Wind" to be very, very weird for 300 years to pass and the notoriously adventurous nomad Luxons never going to find out how that end of the Jade Sea fared in the Jade Wind when they apparently knew the lands before the Jade Wind.

Agreed, absolutely. Would like to learn that there's a "something down there's gonna eat me" reason for having left the region unexplored.

As a former Luxon, the Dragon's End map left me a little underwhelmed compared to Echovald (which was just GORGEOUS) since it's something of a meta-map by necessity. Though I'm left positively champing at the bit to explore the northern and eastern Jade Sea going forward.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Magix Keleton.9083
clarity

[Kalavier.1097]

On 7/11/2022 at 4:54 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It was only the "furthest south Luxon controlled lands" that we visited. There's no dialogue in GW1 implying that's as far south as they went - and nothing in the landscape (especially in GW2's open edge landscape) that would prevent exploration. Which makes that one dialogue about "no one exploring since the Jade Wind" to be very, very weird for 300 years to pass and the notoriously adventurous nomad Luxons never going to find out how that end of the Jade Sea fared in the Jade Wind when they apparently knew the lands before the Jade Wind.

 

18 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

Agreed, absolutely. Would like to learn that there's a "something down there's gonna eat me" reason for having left the region unexplored.

As a former Luxon, the Dragon's End map left me a little underwhelmed compared to Echovald (which was just GORGEOUS) since it's something of a meta-map by necessity. Though I'm left positively champing at the bit to explore the northern and eastern Jade Sea going forward.

 

The luxon storyteller in Echovald tells that Purity destroyed (burning or dismantled) every single Luxon jade sea ship/leviathan, as removing their ability to travel broke their spirit and culture (assimilating them back into Cantha easier).

I took the "Jade expanse" being unexplored to refer to that. The only people who traveled beyond the sections seen in GW1 and GW2 were the Luxons who had the ships and skills to travel the vast jade sea, and the Ministry of Purity destroyed everything they used to do that to break them before/after the Luxon surrender. So we have nobody left who knows how to build those ships or desires to go so far out.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The luxon storyteller in Echovald tells that Purity destroyed (burning or dismantled) every single Luxon jade sea ship/leviathan, as removing their ability to travel broke their spirit and culture (assimilating them back into Cantha easier).

I took the "Jade expanse" being unexplored to refer to that. The only people who traveled beyond the sections seen in GW1 and GW2 were the Luxons who had the ships and skills to travel the vast jade sea, and the Ministry of Purity destroyed everything they used to do that to break them before/after the Luxon surrender. So we have nobody left who knows how to build those ships or desires to go so far out.

Issue is that they had those ships for ~250-300 years between the Jade Wind and the Ministry of Purity war. The NPOC who says the Jade Expanse was left unexplored said it hadn't been explored since the Jade Wind, 200 years before GW1. Apparently the dialogue isn't on wiki, but it's said by these two NPCs iirc:

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nabi_(Dragon's_End)
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Timtu

[Magix Keleton.9083]

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The luxon storyteller in Echovald tells that Purity destroyed (burning or dismantled) every single Luxon jade sea ship/leviathan, as removing their ability to travel broke their spirit and culture (assimilating them back into Cantha easier).

 

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Issue is that they had those ships for ~250-300 years between the Jade Wind and the Ministry of Purity war. The NPOC who says the Jade Expanse was left unexplored said it hadn't been explored since the Jade Wind, 200 years before GW1. Apparently the dialogue isn't on wiki, but it's said by these two NPCs iirc:

These taken together got me thinking... It seems pretty unlikely that the Luxons hadn't explored the south Jade Sea beyond the expanse. But perhaps breaking the Luxon's culture had a direct impact on Luxon history.
Okay, okay, stating the obvious with that one, but what I mean is: it's my hypothesis at time of writing that as a nomad culture, the most predominant form of record-keeping among the clans was more likely to have been an oral tradition. Many of the major myths of the Luxons such as the Three Queens may have persisted and spread through the clans via events such as the yearly Convocation, but throughout the rest of the year, smaller clan migrations would've typically made traditional methods of record-keeping quite cumbersome. Perhaps not completely non-existent, but less thorough. So the best records of the Luxons may have been completely erased along with their culture during the purges, and to a modern Canthan, they may as well have simply never existed.
It seems like one of those things where what we know (or don't know, as well, I'm curious to see what became of the Outcasts) conflicts with what the NPC's know.

[Kalavier.1097]

12 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Issue is that they had those ships for ~250-300 years between the Jade Wind and the Ministry of Purity war. The NPOC who says the Jade Expanse was left unexplored said it hadn't been explored since the Jade Wind, 200 years before GW1. Apparently the dialogue isn't on wiki, but it's said by these two NPCs iirc:

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nabi_(Dragon's_End)
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Timtu

See below as I'll respond to both at same time.

9 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

 

These taken together got me thinking... It seems pretty unlikely that the Luxons hadn't explored the south Jade Sea beyond the expanse. But perhaps breaking the Luxon's culture had a direct impact on Luxon history.
Okay, okay, stating the obvious with that one, but what I mean is: it's my hypothesis at time of writing that as a nomad culture, the most predominant form of record-keeping among the clans was more likely to have been an oral tradition. Many of the major myths of the Luxons such as the Three Queens may have persisted and spread through the clans via events such as the yearly Convocation, but throughout the rest of the year, smaller clan migrations would've typically made traditional methods of record-keeping quite cumbersome. Perhaps not completely non-existent, but less thorough. So the best records of the Luxons may have been completely erased along with their culture during the purges, and to a modern Canthan, they may as well have simply never existed.
It seems like one of those things where what we know (or don't know, as well, I'm curious to see what became of the Outcasts) conflicts with what the NPC's know.

This is my thought line as well. We've had both ingame and out of game examples of how certain npcs come up with or believe details, but we know it's not entirely true.

So with the military conflict, some died before the surrender was signed (it's not actually made clear how bad the fighting was, just that the Kurzicks were wiped out to the last man fighting and the Luxons surrendered at some point). With the destruction of the ships, the Luxons could not travel very far, and were forced to assimilate back into the man culture. The Turtle clan appears to by the only major clan that retained some of it's culture, purely because of the siege turtle's usefulness for warfare and cargo hauling. But even that could be limited to the people who knew how to breed and raise the turtles being allowed to retain their work. Even the Jade mining/carving seems to have lost it's touch (though I admit, haven't fully talked to a lot of npcs in dragon's end).

So a lot of Oral history/knowledge is lost, maybe even on purpose to the public eye? Refusal to spread information about towns or groups that are native to the farther areas to ensure the safety of them? the one npc listed does ponder what cultures/cities/civilizations could be out there beyond the expanse.

Maybe the Luxons did have settlements, but wanted to keep them safe so they went silent about what's out there (If those that knew survived). Maybe some smaller clans managed to escape the attack with the message of "Go and don't come back, survive."

[Fenom.9457]

On 7/11/2022 at 1:53 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

Its a double meaning, and actually has little to do with Soo-Won. Cantha is known as the Empire of the Dragon, and the Jade Sea is the location of a nearly-apocalyptic event from their past.

 

When you see the word "dragon" in Cantha, its not related to the Elder Dragons (usually), as per GW1.

 

See also:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shiro_Tagachi

 

I’ll add onto this with a third potential meaning: Dragon’s End may be the literal end of the Empire of the Dragon, as far as Cantha’s borders go in that direction. You’d think they would mine the whole Jade Sea or even just explore the continent they’re on for the sale of it (what if there’s great danger out in unknown lands that could destroy them?) but seemingly the bottom right corner of DE is the end of the known Cantha. There’s an NPC that says some things along the lines of his daughter wants to explore and he doesn’t want her to because nobody knows what’s out there and how far it goes? It gives an amazing sense of mystery and a chance for US to explore the unknown but I’m not sure why Canthans haven’t expanded in every direction.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, Fenom.9457 said:

but I’m not sure why Canthans haven’t expanded in every direction.

Massive societal and ecological devastation caused by a giant tsunami destroying the major population center where the vast majority of people on the continent lived, combined with fighting against the Purists, and Naga, and trying to build a new city for themselves, etc. would have pretty much halted any real attempts at exploration in the last 116 years.

Being under the grip of a totalitarian regime trying to purge all "unpure" peoples from the land, and then make sure no one really leaves, would have done the same for the 140 years before that.

Even going back to the Jade Wind itself. The scale of that sort of disaster cannot be overstated. Huge portions of the Jade Sea and Echovald were evacuated as people fled the destruction to move to Kaineng, resulting is massive, uncontrolled urban sprawl. This left the city a perilous mess, full of gangs, violence, and other issues that would have kept the Canthan government occupied from the time it happened until Guild Wars Beyond when the Purists take over, leading to the two pieces mentioned above.

Cantha really hasn't had time, or reason, to explore the far end of the Jade Sea. From everything they saw the entire sea was turned to jade. Why would they expect anything in the hundreds of miles of Jade Sea past the part they've explored to be any different? And as we saw back on the GW1 map, and still remains on the GW2 map, theres a big mountain range encircling the eastern and southern edges of Cantha. And if we take the world map given to us back in LWS2, and wrap it into a globe, just beyond that southern mountain ridge of Cantha would be close to Tyria's antarctic circle. So the are past it would be a barren, quasi-tundric, landscape.

It would be kind of boneheaded for them to spend all the resources to cross the Jade Sea to reach.... some tall mountains followed by tundric landscape. They would be better off sending boats around the eastern edge of the landmass to the strips of land between the eastern mountains and the ocean, or, if they weren't so isolationist up until now, that island to the went of Shing Jea. But the Jade Sea itself is a lot of rock.... leading to more rock.

Even the Luxons would have likely been forced to stick closer to real land. The disaster of the Jade sea meant that access to the fish they almost certainly survived off would have been massively constricted, forcing them to switch more to land grown food, and making an expedition to the far parts of the Jade Sea incredibly risky.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Cantha really hasn't had time, or reason, to explore the far end of the Jade Sea.

 

Also unlike the real world, we got all kinds of weird or powerful beasties out there. From naga (who used to populate the Jade sea when it was water) and saltsprays to Tengu and Yetis in the mountains.

Sometimes the answer to "Do you wanna go exploring" is "Nope, did you see the monsters at the foothills of that mountain?"

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

31 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Also unlike the real world, we got all kinds of weird or powerful beasties out there. From naga (who used to populate the Jade sea when it was water) and saltsprays to Tengu and Yetis in the mountains.

Sometimes the answer to "Do you wanna go exploring" is "Nope, did you see the monsters at the foothills of that mountain?"

Yeah, the Jade Sea is a giant mass of rock, with huge swarms of monsters atop, and little if any real natural resources to make exploring it worthwhile.

And I'm going to take a guess and say that Cantha has some historical records, from Luxon explorers, from back before the Jade Sea turned to Jade showing that whats on the other side is.... mountains. And from having estates up in some of those mountains(like Kirin Peak), the mountains brushing up against the southern Echovald, and the northern range of the mountains being up against the northern parts of old Kaineng.... the Canthans probably know what that range is like. And it probably isn't anything special.

[Magix Keleton.9083]

I personally agree that the Canthan Empire probably doesn't have a lot of incentive to explore the extremities of their territory (which is a pretty broad claim, I know, but I think we've circled a lot around how much the empire as an institution has been able to feasibly control the continent after centuries of systemic upheaval. Which for us, I think the obvious answer at this point is that they probably haven't). What I'd point out as key to this is that the dominant Canthan presence in Dragon's End is Xunlai Jade, a Canthan-owned (registered?) corporate entity, with their security team acting as a de facto police force in certain cases. Begging the question for another day maybe, do the Canthan ministries have a standing army/defence force? Is that MinSec, who are also cops? (Not to say military don't sometimes play a law enforcement role in some societies, but it'd be nifty to know if there's a distinction in this case).

I guess the point I was trying to get to was that while Xunlai Jade took over operations at Jade Quarry, I'm not aware if there's any information available to suggest that they've expanded out as far as the Aurios Mines, since that seems like another prime location for XJ to resume historical mining operations. Although, it's not as close to the Harvest Temple, so it's possible the jade's not as enriched... Hmm. Regardless, without any further evidence, it's hard to be certain where the modern limits of the empire lie, but I think it's a cool opportunity to see how the seed of conflict sown during EoD between the imperial institutions of Cantha and Xunlai Jade pan out in future as this section of the world quite literally becomes a new frontier.

Spent some extra time writing this, because it occurred to me that XJ will want to start looking for new sources of enriched jade now that scarcity may become a problem. Ended up noting some tidbits while trying to track the history of 'the dragonjade rush', so to speak.

The first Observation (under Books, I'm not sure how to link to article subtitles) from Weight of the World dated 1820CC notes what I currently believe to be the discovery of enriched jade (dragon jade) by an unnamed author who mentions the peculiar jade in a batch of their "mother's" payload. Which I'm connecting to this Mining Rights Transfer Document dated 1830CC, transferring Jade Sea mining rights to Xunlai Jade which had been incorporated just the year before as a partnership between Yu Joon and Park Chul-Moo. My working theory is that the Silver Dawn Mining Group mentioned in the permit was owned by the Park family, and that the 'mother' referred to in the first document is the Matron Park. So Cantha's had about 25 years to slowly build an unsustainable, empire-wide reliance on dragon jade, which might've just crashed.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

You know, I've been wondering something for a fair number of years now.  If the Jade Wind devastated Echovald and the Jade Sea, and the two areas were the lands of the Kurzicks and the Luxons, respectively....where did all the people that filled up and then expanded Kaineng to such an extreme degree all come from?  Those old lore documents don't _seem_ to imply that all that many "regular" Canthans lived in either vassal states' lands nor do they _seem_ to describe the Jade Wind effecting any of the areas that were outside those two specific biomes.  What lands did these people come from that were also devastated by the Jade Winds that also contained such a number of people as to expand Kaineng to cover the pretty much whatever was left of the mainland save the mountain ranges on the edges.  I've been dunking on GW2 a fair bit lately, but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge when GW1 goofed on something, and IMO the overall layout of Cantha leaves a lot to be desired.

Also, can it really be called an 'Empire' anymore?  It seems like its been reduced to not much more than a City-State with some extra islands and a bit of barely inhabited territory, a quite a bit smaller than what it was back in Factions, which was in a reduced state even then.  Plus no more vassal states, seems like an empire in name only.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Also, can it really be called an 'Empire' anymore?  It seems like its been reduced to not much more than a City-State with some extra islands and a bit of barely inhabited territory, a quite a bit smaller than what it was back in Factions, which was in a reduced state even then.  Plus no more vassal states, seems like an empire in name only.

Holding Shing Jea, New Kaineng City, and having a technical hold on the Echovald, and a good chunk of the Jade Sea, puts the Canthan Empire's scope larger then pretty much any current day nation besides the Charr Imperium(based on the assumption that Blood and Ash hold similar land sizes as Iron does)

The GW2 map also seems to indicate that theres still more "city" like build up in that strip of land to the north-west of Kirin peak, in a similar spot as we saw cityscape on the GW1 map. And while we can't visit it in GW2, nothing has suggested(that I recall off the top of my head at least) that area that formed Pongmei Valley, Mount Qinkai, Maishang Hills, the Archipelagos, etc is no longer under the Canthan's control. The path from the "Junkyard Waypoint" in Echovald, into New Kaineng city, passes through at least part of that, so they must still retain control there.

Then theres like the southern part of Echovald, all the parts of the Jade Sea from Gw1 we can't explore, that strip of land going south from New Kaineng to that city-like area to the southwest, and that big island south of Shing Jea, that Cantha still likely lords over.

All in all they may be reduced from gW1, due to the loss of old Kaineng, but they're still quite large, larger then anyone but the charr most likely, so "empire" still fits.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kalavier.1097]

12 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

The first Observation (under Books, I'm not sure how to link to article subtitles) from Weight of the World dated 1820CC notes what I currently believe to be the discovery of enriched jade (dragon jade) by an unnamed author who mentions the peculiar jade in a batch of their "mother's" payload. Which I'm connecting to this Mining Rights Transfer Document dated 1830CC, transferring Jade Sea mining rights to Xunlai Jade which had been incorporated just the year before as a partnership between Yu Joon and Park Chul-Moo. My working theory is that the Silver Dawn Mining Group mentioned in the permit was owned by the Park family, and that the 'mother' referred to in the first document is the Matron Park. So Cantha's had about 25 years to slowly build an unsustainable, empire-wide reliance on dragon jade, which might've just crashed.

That's Joon's journal. Her mother was a jade trader and potter. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Yu_Dal-Rae In the one book is when she figured out charged jade held a lot more power then the Amber cores being used.

About the mining, it appears that Xunlai Jade has went for the option of strip mining the jade down to the ground at the farthest north border, where it's easier to ship, vs the several scattered mining locations the Luxons used. This may be because of charged Jade, or simply because reduced distance.

9 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

You know, I've been wondering something for a fair number of years now.  If the Jade Wind devastated Echovald and the Jade Sea, and the two areas were the lands of the Kurzicks and the Luxons, respectively....where did all the people that filled up and then expanded Kaineng to such an extreme degree all come from?  Those old lore documents don't _seem_ to imply that all that many "regular" Canthans lived in either vassal states' lands nor do they _seem_ to describe the Jade Wind effecting any of the areas that were outside those two specific biomes.  What lands did these people come from that were also devastated by the Jade Winds that also contained such a number of people as to expand Kaineng to cover the pretty much whatever was left of the mainland save the mountain ranges on the edges.  I've been dunking on GW2 a fair bit lately, but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge when GW1 goofed on something, and IMO the overall layout of Cantha leaves a lot to be desired.

Also, can it really be called an 'Empire' anymore?  It seems like its been reduced to not much more than a City-State with some extra islands and a bit of barely inhabited territory, a quite a bit smaller than what it was back in Factions, which was in a reduced state even then.  Plus no more vassal states, seems like an empire in name only.

 

To be fair, we see that the Kurzicks already had the grand cathedrals before the Jade Wind, and the Luxons had a vast navy of ships briefly and ingame wrecks.

 

We know a lot of people died in the jade wind (like a majority of the Naga population, who were hastily resurrected and developed a hatred of humanity) but not all. The Luxon and Kurzick cultures survived despite it.

Very well may be that vast majority of those populations fled into Kaineng, while those that remained stayed with their culture and repopulated.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

And to be fair. Even if we take a conservative estimate on how much of the Jade Sea was explored post-Jade Wind, using the GW1 zones are borders, its not like the Luxons didn't explore like half of it

https://i.imgur.com/6AA3GXC.jpg

[The Greyhawk.9107]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

That's Joon's journal. Her mother was a jade trader and potter. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Yu_Dal-Rae In the one book is when she figured out charged jade held a lot more power then the Amber cores being used.

About the mining, it appears that Xunlai Jade has went for the option of strip mining the jade down to the ground at the farthest north border, where it's easier to ship, vs the several scattered mining locations the Luxons used. This may be because of charged Jade, or simply because reduced distance.

 

To be fair, we see that the Kurzicks already had the grand cathedrals before the Jade Wind, and the Luxons had a vast navy of ships briefly and ingame wrecks.

 

We know a lot of people died in the jade wind (like a majority of the Naga population, who were hastily resurrected and developed a hatred of humanity) but not all. The Luxon and Kurzick cultures survived despite it.

Very well may be that vast majority of those populations fled into Kaineng, while those that remained stayed with their culture and repopulated.

I'm not sure what the Kurzicks having cathedrals and thr Luxons having navies prior to the Jade Wind has to do with my question, nor the fact that a lot of people died from that same event.

Edited July 15, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Magix Keleton.9083]

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

That's Joon's journal. Her mother was a jade trader and potter. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Yu_Dal-Rae In the one book is when she figured out charged jade held a lot more power then the Amber cores being used.

Ah, that's a good point. I missed the 'jade trader' detail and hyper-focussed on the pottery aspect. I haven't been able to log in for some time to examine the in-game context of the Observation documents, so I assumed it may have been some kind of Xunlai Jade holdover scrap or something. Makes sense if Joon wrote it too, since she seems like the kind of person who'd describe power output in terms of 'factors'. Looks like I didn't read her History entry well enough and was just looking for a way to figure out how Chul-Moo came into the picture. My mistake 😅

Yeah, now that I think about it, without a provable connection between jade, Silver Dawn Mining Co. and the Park family wealth, Chul-Moo could've just as easily come onboard Hyeoksin Jade as an ambitious investor. Yep Joon just calls him a "brilliant businessman", so I guess that's all it is up until they part ways. Still, even if his Jade Brotherhood plays an antagonistic role and puts out highly suspect product, they're delivering on jade tech priced to an affordable market. They could've just as easily made bad gear and jacked up the price anyway.

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

We know a lot of people died in the jade wind (like a majority of the Naga population, who were hastily resurrected and developed a hatred of humanity) but not all. The Luxon and Kurzick cultures survived despite it.

Wait, did divine resurrection magic work on people affected by the Jade Wind?

20 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Those old lore documents don't _seem_ to imply that all that many "regular" Canthans lived in either vassal states' lands nor do they _seem_ to describe the Jade Wind effecting any of the areas that were outside those two specific biomes.

I'm having a hard time following your full line of inquiry (apologies) but I feel like I might've often wondered the same thing during the events of GW1. If the Jade Wind petrified animal life in Echovald and did ??? to people on the Jade Sea at the time, (any transmutation? they might've just been stranded, having to trek back to civilisation on foot with any supplies they might've had) how did those cultures repopulate the area in the time before Factions? With credit to Kalavier, I have a vague memory of resurrections not being 100% effective, but that would still leave a significant portion of the population dead, and that's all I can recall. And it makes sense that Echovald and the Jade Sea would've been inhospitable for the first few years without persistent access to food and water, however the distinct peoples gradually made a resurgence somehow.

That said, if you could point us to the old lore docs you're referring to, I might be able to get a better insight. The Jade Wind appeared to have a noticeable radial limit before petering out at the bordering mountain ranges, so I'm willing to accept that 'for the plot'. To add to that, my read is that Canthan southern expansion west of the central mountain range was established -before- the events of the Jade Wind and at this stage, the three states would've been at a place of relative peace. It's hard to imagine the southern cape would've been as densely populated by Factions without there already being a significant Canthan presence between the mountains and the sea. I can only speculate that the Kurzicks and Luxons probably enjoyed a period of little outside interference or imperial territorial incursion as a condition of vassal status before Shiro popped off with the Jade Wind.

20 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Also, can it really be called an 'Empire' anymore?  It seems like its been reduced to not much more than a City-State with some extra islands and a bit of barely inhabited territory, a quite a bit smaller than what it was back in Factions, which was in a reduced state even then.  Plus no more vassal states, seems like an empire in name only.

I'm inclined to agree. A hegemony? Idk.

15 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Holding Shing Jea, New Kaineng City, and having a technical hold on the Echovald, and a good chunk of the Jade Sea, puts the Canthan Empire's scope larger then pretty much any current day nation besides the Charr Imperium(based on the assumption that Blood and Ash hold similar land sizes as Iron does)

Well hang on, while the Charr High Legions might mirror the real world Roman Empire in a lot of respects, I don't think the modern iteration has the characteristics of one (at least without a recognised head of state, but that's my take).
From Charr Government

Quote

The de jure head of the chain of command is the Khan-Ur, considered the primus imperator. They rank above the imperators of all four legions and coordinate all the armies of the charr. There is currently no Khan-Ur because no charr holds the leadership artifact, the Claw of the Khan-Ur. The charr nation is therefore currently led by a kratocratic oligarchy consisting of leaders from the four High Legions.

Although Smodur held the Claw of the Khan-Ur before he doth be smote during IBS, he wasn't recognised as the Khan-Ur as he didn't "legally" qualify (charr have a constitution, I guess?). Guess that's why he got brazen and kinda forgot how to be a diplomat... ANYHOO

I'd say the High Legions function more as a strategic alliance without a recognised head of state. They're prone to fractious infighting which makes the whole 'empire' deal rather tenuous. But if I had a pet wish, it would be for Rytlock's retirement to end up with him as Khan-Ur, lol. Not to mention, we now have a broken and listless Frost Legion who might end up trying to negotiate a re-entry into the legions in the future. Either that or it's Flame Legion 2.0 time, babyyyy.

15 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The GW2 map also seems to indicate that theres still more "city" like build up in that strip of land to the north-west of Kirin peak, in a similar spot as we saw cityscape on the GW1 map. And while we can't visit it in GW2, nothing has suggested(that I recall off the top of my head at least) that area that formed Pongmei Valley, Mount Qinkai, Maishang Hills, the Archipelagos, etc is no longer under the Canthan's control. The path from the "Junkyard Waypoint" in Echovald, into New Kaineng city, passes through at least part of that, so they must still retain control there.

But without any more information, it's just as likely that the lands stretching east of New Kaineng City aren't under direct imperial control. Bear in mind that while the imperial seat technically holds claim to the Echovald Wilds, it's mostly populated by fringe extremists in open rebellion, with a giant corpo dumping ground right in the middle of it and a non-government organisation keeping the peace (the Kestrals). Cantha might claim it, but they don't control it. There's more evidence to suggest that regaining control from the Unchained Risen in Raisu Palace to the north is a higher priority target for the empire in the interim based on notes scattered around Old Kaineng, etc.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Magix Keleton.9083
Tidying up vertical space and clarity.

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I'm not sure what the Kurzicks having cathedrals and thr Luxons having navies prior to the Jade Wind has to do with my question, nor the fact that a lot of people died from that same event.

You seem to imply the refugee crisis was caused by regular Canthans. I'm pointing out the huge surge of people could very well be kurzicks and Luxons who fled the destruction and simply never came back.

The two nations got hit hard but were not wiped out entirely. So those that stayed behind adapted and survived, while the ones who fled assimilated into regular Canthan Culture.

 

2 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

Wait, did divine resurrection magic work on people affected by the Jade Wind?

The old lore was the Naga of the Jade Sea area got nearly entirely wiped out by the affect. However, the survivors managed to rapidly resurrect/revive those they could find, though most were dead and under the Jade. Though their surviving tribe was 40 some people.

Quote

Tyrian visitors claim that the serpentine Naga resemble the Forgotten of the northern continent, but the two species are unrelated. Like the Wardens, the Naga people lost their homes when the Jade Wind struck. But the Naga population—water-dwelling creatures related to sea snakes which evolved a culture at peace with humans—was nearly wiped out by Shiro’s death wail. Thousands became one with the sea when it turned to gemstone. Hundreds more, mostly traders or mercenaries, died with the humans of Cantha on land. The only Naga that survived were those far enough away not to be trapped in the water when it turned to jade, and those survivors—only a few dozen in number—were scattered and terrified.

If not for a Naga priestess named Hanasha Coralfin the entire race might well have died out within a few years, perhaps even a few months. The priestess used what power she had left to revive those survivors she could find, who then brought more survivors to her, until a united Naga tribe of barely 40 individuals gathered. Under her guidance, the Naga abandoned their ancient moral codes and began to propagate freely and often, so that someday they might make the humans pay for what they had done.

Now, 200 years later, the Naga are nothing like the peaceful culture that shared the coast with the Canthans of old. They have aggressively taken back whole stretches of crystallized sea and petrified coastline from the humans, and make any journey through the Jade Sea even more perilous.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Naga

I had thought it was more, but wasn't that many looking it up lol.

 

2 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

I'm having a hard time following your full line of inquiry (apologies) but I feel like I might've often wondered the same thing during the events of GW1. If the Jade Wind petrified animal life in Echovald and did ??? to people on the Jade Sea at the time, (any transmutation? they might've just been stranded, having to trek back to civilisation on foot with any supplies they might've had) how did those cultures repopulate the area in the time before Factions? With credit to Kalavier, I have a vague memory of resurrections not being 100% effective, but that would still leave a significant portion of the population dead, and that's all I can recall. And it makes sense that Echovald and the Jade Sea would've been inhospitable for the first few years without persistent access to food and water, however the distinct peoples gradually made a resurgence somehow.

That said, if you could point us to the old lore docs you're referring to, I might be able to get a better insight. The Jade Wind appeared to have a noticeable radial limit before petering out at the bordering mountain ranges, so I'm willing to accept that 'for the plot'. To add to that, my read is that Canthan southern expansion west of the central mountain range was established -before- the events of the Jade Wind and at this stage, the three states would've been at a place of relative peace. It's hard to imagine the southern cape would've been as densely populated by Factions without there already being a significant Canthan presence between the mountains and the sea. I can only speculate that the Kurzicks and Luxons probably enjoyed a period of little outside interference or imperial territorial incursion as a condition of vassal status before Shiro popped off with the Jade Wind.

 

My line of thought was that the blast killed a lot of people, and changed the landscape, but it didn't wipe out everything. The great houses and major luxon clans survived and repopulated, adjusting to the changes. But they were already established and decently sized nations at the time.

The refugee crisis was those people who fled the blast and never returned home for various reasons.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[The Greyhawk.9107]

3 hours ago, Magix Keleton.9083 said:

I'm having a hard time following your full line of inquiry (apologies) but I feel like I might've often wondered the same thing during the events of GW1. If the Jade Wind petrified animal life in Echovald and did ??? to people on the Jade Sea at the time, (any transmutation? they might've just been stranded, having to trek back to civilisation on foot with any supplies they might've had) how did those cultures repopulate the area in the time before Factions? With credit to Kalavier, I have a vague memory of resurrections not being 100% effective, but that would still leave a significant portion of the population dead, and that's all I can recall. And it makes sense that Echovald and the Jade Sea would've been inhospitable for the first few years without persistent access to food and water, however the distinct peoples gradually made a resurgence somehow.

That said, if you could point us to the old lore docs you're referring to, I might be able to get a better insight. The Jade Wind appeared to have a noticeable radial limit before petering out at the bordering mountain ranges, so I'm willing to accept that 'for the plot'. To add to that, my read is that Canthan southern expansion west of the central mountain range was established -before- the events of the Jade Wind and at this stage, the three states would've been at a place of relative peace. It's hard to imagine the southern cape would've been as densely populated by Factions without there already being a significant Canthan presence between the mountains and the sea. I can only speculate that the Kurzicks and Luxons probably enjoyed a period of little outside interference or imperial territorial incursion as a condition of vassal status before Shiro popped off with the Jade Wind.

Here are the main lore document for Guild Wars Factions: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Canthan_Culture https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conflict_in_Cantha  (Kongi will know if I'm missing any).

I'm afraid that's not quite what I meant by "where did they (the people that over-populated Kaineng and over-expanded) come from?"  Though you've hit on another line of questions I've had regarding how their was any life, human or otherwise, left to repopulate the areas within the radius of the Jade Wind.  By all accounts there shouldn't have been much more survivors of either the Luxons or the Kurzicks than there were of the people of Orr.  But that's a tangent for another time.

I'll try to reiterate what I mean by "where did these people come from".  Where were all the other cities, towns, and farmlands of Cantha that much if not most of the population would have inhabited originally? The Jade Wind, from what I've seen and read, seems to have effected almost exclusive only two areas, the Luxon and the Kurzicks homelands.  Two areas, again as far as I can tell, were almost exclusively inhabited by said two peoples and seemed to not have a significant amount of "regular" Canthans inhabiting them.  There probably were a few, but there doesn't seem to have been enough of note.  If in some fever-dream like alternate reality I had been given complete control over how Guild Wars Factions was made, I would have included a Third area or biome that would have also been devastated by the Jade Wind, an area that would have been where most of the Canthan population would have inhabited prior to the JW.

Hope that clears things up.

 

43 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You seem to imply the refugee crisis was caused by regular Canthans. I'm pointing out the huge surge of people could very well be kurzicks and Luxons who fled the destruction and simply never came back.

The two nations got hit hard but were not wiped out entirely. So those that stayed behind adapted and survived, while the ones who fled assimilated into regular Canthan Culture.

Still not sure what the existence of the Cathedrals and the Navies has to do with my previous comment or  this second second response of yours. 🤔

That said, I'm sure there were some of each faction that ended up in Mega-City One Kaineng but its unlike to have been more than a very small contribution.  Both factions are incredibly proud and aggressively stubborn, they've clung to their respective cultures, traditions, and independence so strongly that they had to have been completely subjugated (and from some accounts partially genocided) just to get them to leave their homelands of dubious habitability.  You aren't likely to get a lot of individuals out of such peoples that are willing to walk away, even under great distress.

But if I'm wrong and over-exaggerating that much of the Luxon and Kurzicks' populations willingness to live in such hard conditions, the above described traits are still hold true in this other scenario.  If a decent amount of each faction remains in Metropolis Kaineng and they also made up a significant percentage of the city's over-population, I've little reason to believe that they would have assimilated.  They would have clung to their culture and identity almost as strongly as if they still lived in Echovald and the Jade Sea, and there probably wouldn't have been enough Canthans to overwhelm them and absorb them, not completely, and there was no Usoku or Ministry of Purity to try to force them to do so.  Otherwise half the NPC names in Midgar (ok, I'll stop) Kaineng would have been Luxon or Kurzick.  And then there's also the fact that each faction, contrary to what I'd thought for a fair number of years, are apparently each completely ethnically distinct from the "Asian" Canthans, the population of Kaineng and possibly the rest of Cantha would have looked noticeably different during GW Factions.

Cantha is just plain missing a place for all the people that ended up in Kaineng to have originally come from.

Edited July 16, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107