When someone doesn't understand what elitist and casual are

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

30 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

What did WoW FF14 do?

If it s auto lfg its not needed you can make your own no rules lfg just as easy as anyone else.

Not advertisement of real money or gold .

WoW allows you to use the /trade channel , but you can leave /leave 2 (channel)

 

FF14 and WoW have auto-lfg , i dont see the harm . People keep mentioning we must look like them .

People can enforce whatever rules they wantin the old lfg and other people can join the auto .

I see no harm in there

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Caliboom.3218]

Have you guys thought that people don't create their own groups because they don't have a comm tag? It is 300 gold.

And before you say you don't need a tag to make a group, yeah, good luck getting people to join a tagless group. (Spoiler alert: No one will.)

Edited July 30, 2022 by Caliboom.3218

[Labjax.2465]

12 minutes ago, Caliboom.3218 said:

Have you guys thought that people don't create their own groups because they don't have a comm tag? It is 300 gold.

And before you say you don't need a tag to make a group, yeah, good luck getting people to join a tagless group. (Spoiler alert: No one will.)

Good point. And another point about that is it leaves your group vulnerable to being screwed with; someone with a tag coming in and taking over its intended purpose. From that standpoint, 300g is very steep just to be able to safely list in LFG. I'm lucky, I got mine way back in the day when it was still 100g.

That said, I can see design reasons for not wanting everyone to have a tag when it comes to open world PvE or WvW (chaos, trolling, etc.), but it blows the way the tag system interacts with LFG when it comes to instanced PvE content. If not an auto LFG system, I think the game could at least use something where you can form parties specifically for instanced PvE in a way that maintains you as lead, even if you don't have a tag. The flexibility has its benefits in open world for taxiing and so on, one commander leaving, another taking over, but it's a rough system for instanced PvE groupfinding and if I look at the history of the game, I don't think it was designed with commander tags in mind in the beginning. Cause wasn't commander tag originally just WvW? Or was it always available elsewhere? Been too long and I wasn't around long for that period.

[Sobx.1758]

28 minutes ago, Caliboom.3218 said:

Have you guys thought that people don't create their own groups because they don't have a comm tag? It is 300 gold.

You don't need a tag to create your own group. You can also add "tag/comm needed" (yes, these groups are also a thing and they also do get filled).

Quote

And before you say you don't need a tag to make a group, yeah, good luck getting people to join a tagless group. (Spoiler alert: No one will.)

False, especially when talking about the situation mentioned in this thread, which is basically "I know what I'm doing, why do you want me to ping kp?!".

 

That said, the group setting should still be changed so that the player creating a group has the control over their group, even if they don't have a tag. "Control over the group" meaning other person can't re-list that group in lfg nor kick any player they want, just because they tagged up in someone's squad. Give the creator of the squad the ability to "pass over the ownership of the squad" or if they don't do it before leaving, pass the squad to the next player that was in that group the longest time. 🤷‍♂️

Edited July 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Linken.6345]

23 minutes ago, Caliboom.3218 said:

Have you guys thought that people don't create their own groups because they don't have a comm tag? It is 300 gold.

And before you say you don't need a tag to make a group, yeah, good luck getting people to join a tagless group. (Spoiler alert: No one will.)

No group need a tag since they are 5 people and tags dont work there.

For easy squad stuff and this is the only place an autolfg would work you dont need a tag anyway.

So if people dont join tagless squads then surely they would leave auto lfg without tags aswell so the propsed solution would not work

2 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I think the game could at least use something where you can form parties specifically for instanced PvE in a way that maintains you as lead, even if you don't have a tag.

This is how it used to work in dungeons and instance was tied to the leader.

It was abused so badly that Anet got rid of the system entierly.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Linken.6345

[Schimmi.6872]

29 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Not advertisement of real money or gold .

WoW allows you to use the /trade channel , but you can leave /leave 2 (channel)

 

FF14 and WoW have auto-lfg , i dont see the harm . People keep mentioning we must look like them .

People can enforce whatever rules they wantin the old lfg and other people can join the auto .

I see no harm in there

 

 

 

Advertisments for real money aren't allowed here too.

 

Anets version of the auto-lfg (public mode) already exists for some instances (DRMs and daily IBS Strike), have you ever tried it?

 

It didn't worked well, even for such easy instances (it was used so rarely, that it was removed from the "not daily" IBS Strikes later), so I doubt, that this would fix any problems. It would need a huge rework, but then it will have other problems

[Labjax.2465]

30 minutes ago, Schimmi.6872 said:

Advertisments for real money aren't allowed here too.

 

Anets version of the auto-lfg (public mode) already exists for some instances (DRMs and daily IBS Strike), have you ever tried it?

 

It didn't worked well, even for such easy instances (it was used so rarely, that it was removed from the "not daily" IBS Strikes later), so I doubt, that this would fix any problems. It would need a huge rework, but then it will have other problems

Public mode works for Dragonstorm, which is on a timer, so people know when to show up.

It doesn't work for the other stuff, as there's nothing to organically put people together at the right time. I've also heard with DRMs there were problems with people entering the instance and then auto-running into a wall to get credit without doing anything.

At any rate, GW2's public mode is not auto-LFG like a number of MMOs have. I would call it a modest step toward one, but not really the same thing. In other games, the general style is you queue up for randoms, or a specific thing, and then when it's found enough people who did the same, it prompts you to enter with them. So not only do you not have to form the group at all, you can do whatever while you wait and then just teleport in when it's ready.

How well it would work in GW2 I don't know, but that's the convenience appeal of it.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

54 minutes ago, Schimmi.6872 said:

Advertisments for real money aren't allowed here too.

 

Anets version of the auto-lfg (public mode) already exists for some instances (DRMs and daily IBS Strike), have you ever tried it?

 

It didn't worked well, even for such easy instances (it was used so rarely, that it was removed from the "not daily" IBS Strikes later), so I doubt, that this would fix any problems. It would need a huge rework, but then it will have other problems

Both their games dont allow advertisiment for Selling Runs EITHER WITH GOLD or real cash IN THE LFG.

Well it doesnt hurt to go all the way to re-implant it. A simply  way to detect an afk , will help .

Hopefully it wont get boycotaz by the community this time , and then procced to say to the company  " IBS failed , lets move back to raids" or "Public Version failed , so dont use that again"

Edited July 30, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

14 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Both their games dont allow advertisiment for Selling Runs EITHER WITH GOLD or real cash IN THE LFG.

Well it doesnt hurt to go all the way to re-implant it. A simply  way to detect an afk , will help .

Hopefully it wont get boycotaz by the community this time , and then procced to say to the company  " IBS failed , lets move back to raids" or "Public Version failed , so dont use that again"

Anet is neutral on selling runs, they don't support it, but they aren't against it either. If it's for ingame currencies it is not really a bannable offense.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

5 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Anet is neutral on selling runs, they don't support it, but they aren't against it either. If it's for ingame currencies it is not really a bannable offense.

Same was WoW + FF14

(i am telling you , there are sus among us , that why for now increasing population + isolating  should be the goal for now)

Edited July 30, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[The Boz.2038]

3 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

At this point, I'd wager posters like yourself don't even play the game anymore and just show up on the forums to troll people who do.

Hey, if that helps you cope...

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Just now, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Same was WoW + FF14

WoW and GW1 have Trade system and they also have chat windows for that purpose, GW2 doesn't. You'd have to create a specific chat window for run selling, which I highly doubt Anet would ever want to do.
Moving Raid Sellers to their own spot would be nice, atleast I wouldn't have 100+ people on my Block list simply because they were advertising Raid sells in LFG.

[Schimmi.6872]

31 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Public mode works for Dragonstorm, which is on a timer, so people know when to show up.

It doesn't work for the other stuff, as there's nothing to organically put people together at the right time. I've also heard with DRMs there were problems with people entering the instance and then auto-running into a wall to get credit without doing anything.

At any rate, GW2's public mode is not auto-LFG like a number of MMOs have. I would call it a modest step toward one, but not really the same thing. In other games, the general style is you queue up for randoms, or a specific thing, and then when it's found enough people who did the same, it prompts you to enter with them. So not only do you not have to form the group at all, you can do whatever while you wait and then just teleport in when it's ready.

How well it would work in GW2 I don't know, but that's the convenience appeal of it.

Dragonstorm only works, because there are enough people in the instance to carry all the leechers, and like you said, that's one of the reasons why it failed in smaller instances like DRMs and strikes.

 

I agree, that it's also not an real auto-lfg, like in some other MMOs and it would need a huge rework to make it useful, especially, if it should also work in raids, where the system would have to solve more problems, as there are more different roles than in other instances, which may also change between the bosses and also depend on the tactics of the groups.

 

In the end, you still won't ever find a way to make everyone happy. Because as soon as you add the option to kick, blocks for joining too often,  role selections, some sort of group requirements, etc.  , you can be sure, that there will be people who will cry about it.

[Labjax.2465]

22 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Hey, if that helps you cope...

I mean, it has far more likelihood of being true than me being the person in the OP story whose behavior I characterized as elitist and said wasn't justified, when I regularly condemn elitism. Sometimes one has to wonder if certain words being directed at them are a result of projection and have nothing to do with them. Just speaking generally of course, no relevance to this conversation. 😇

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Labjax.2465 said:

I mean, it has far more likelihood of being true than me being the person in the OP story whose behavior I characterized as elitist and said wasn't justified, when I regularly condemn elitism. Sometimes one has to wonder if certain words being directed at them are a result of projection and have nothing to do with them. Just speaking generally of course, no relevance to this conversation. 😇

This isn't bait. You just threw the pole into the water, there. 

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:06 PM, Labjax.2465 said:

Friendly reminder here that just as no one is owed a spot in your pug group, no one owes you a pug group that is tailored exactly to your desires

...and btw, I'll directly comment at this part again, since this is not the first time you keep bringing something like that up in an attempt to twist the whole situation around and claim that people already creating their groups are somehow trying to "brush off the responsibility(?) of creating the group onto others".

See, you are correct in finally acknowledging that "no one is owed a spot in x pug group". And you're also correct about -despite clearly trying to be snarky- "no one owing anybody a pug group that is tailored exactly to their desires". This is exactly why those people looking for a specific group are often times just making one themselves. Exactly like in the reddit post you're bringing here up. The person asking for a role/kp knew nobody owes them anything -that's literally why they made the group they wanted to see by themselves. 🤦‍♂️

Edited July 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Cuks.8241]

I was in favour of auto lfg before I started doing squad content. Now I see it wouldn't work very well with the existing encounters. While we dont have "official" roles, in reality we have more roles and no real way to determine who does what by algorithm. Even if auto lfg would disregard boon supports (which would be a big disadvantage for the squad) and just go healer, dps and tank (where needed) you have other encounter and tactic based specialised roles. They would need to greatly nerf or even change the encounters. 

I'm not inherently against auto lfg. Now the strike public instance implementation was just bad, so its really a bad example. You need a queue system here.  They could improve the system for normal strikes and see how it goes. I would still prefer the current system where you have some control over your composition, its fast and more social. Never liked or really used wow lfr, the encounters were so nerfed anyway that it was more like a preview mode than anything worth playing.  

[The Boz.2038]

38 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I'm not inherently against auto lfg.

I am.
It can go one of two ways:
1) Won't work, because we have several times more roles than "heal, spank, tank". We have hybrids, we have dual role builds, and then we have people handling special boss mechanics. This slot is for a healer, and this one for a tank? Can you make a tank heal slot? Can you set your build tags to satisfy the tank heal slot? How about chrono tower? How does the game check?
2) Will work, by virtue of changing the entire game, every encounter. Which is either an absolutely massive amount of work, or just a huge amount of work dumbing everything down. 

[Labjax.2465]

6 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I was in favour of auto lfg before I started doing squad content. Now I see it wouldn't work very well with the existing encounters. While we dont have "official" roles, in reality we have more roles and no real way to determine who does what by algorithm. Even if auto lfg would disregard boon supports (which would be a big disadvantage for the squad) and just go healer, dps and tank (where needed) you have other encounter and tactic based specialised roles. They would need to greatly nerf or even change the encounters. 

I'm not inherently against auto lfg. Now the strike public instance implementation was just bad, so its really a bad example. You need a queue system here.  They could improve the system for normal strikes and see how it goes. I would still prefer the current system where you have some control over your composition, its fast and more social. Never liked or really used wow lfr, the encounters were so nerfed anyway that it was more like a preview mode than anything worth playing.  

I know it would split people, but I don't think it's the worst idea to do an auto-LFG and keep the existing poster board system at the same time. Maybe even keep the existing poster board system in the same place and put the auto-LFG queue in a more obvious place. Then the people who still want to tightly control group comp can with the existing tool and they'd prob get less randoms who ignore their requested group composition. And then the people who prefer to do stuff like "all welcome" can queue up and get about the same they were getting before, but more conveniently.

Alternatively, I've also wondered idly about a sort of hybrid system before. Like if they made some kind of system that used role tags and approved certain of them to be used in the game based on community use or wiki listings somewhere. So imagine something like: somebody makes a group composition with the tags and numbers fitting those tags. This gets listed in a LFG window, showing the slots that are so far taken and the ones still open. To join, you have to actively set your role tag and then choose an open slot matching it (and at least can't set your tag to a role you can't currently do, so can't choose healbrand if you aren't guardian or don't have firebrand specialization unlocked).

Tags could also have some basic information associated with them pulled from a wiki or the like, making it easier for people unfamiliar to learn what the roles are and what they need to be doing if they want to join a group that has those roles specified.

Such has the potential to be worse if done poorly, I think, but if done carefully, I think it could remove a lot of headache for people who are trying to organize a group with strict composition in LFG and make it more clear to people unfamiliar with the system what the expectations are and how to meet them, possibly reducing a ton of unwanted *join group* "we already have that" type of stuff going on.

There's another possibility that floats around in my mind a little too. Something along the lines of a role tag system, but with queues, though I think you'd need entire community-recommended group compositions for encounters to go with it too, not just possible role tags. Such that if you queue X role, it will place you in a slot in Y recommended group comp for the content you queued for, and then queue will pop when all the slots have been filled. This can run the problem trinity game queues can have though, of not enough people queuing for the more obscure roles, so I think it'd need information like "hey there's a listing up that needs Z role, maybe you should queue for that one."

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I know it would split people, but I don't think it's the worst idea to do an auto-LFG and keep the existing poster board system at the same time. Maybe even keep the existing poster board system in the same place and put the auto-LFG queue in a more obvious place.

So what's exactly the reason behind not making the "everyone welcome" group in lfg and doing whatever you want to do in the game, while the group just fills up in the background? For what reason do you need an entire new system created just to do what you already can easly do anyways, but still refuse to?

Edited July 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758
can't fix the quote for some reason. Anyways, it's a response to what Labjax said, not what Cuks said :D

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

 

So what exactly the reason behind not making the "everyone welcome" group in lfg and do whatever you want to do in the game, while the group just fills up in the background? For what reason do you need an entire new system created just to do what you already can easly do anyways, but still refuse to?

Exactly that is what all their posts seem to indicate it is to much hassle if there is more then press 1 button done.

[Cuks.8241]

8 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I am.
It can go one of two ways:
1) Won't work, because we have several times more roles than "heal, spank, tank". We have hybrids, we have dual role builds, and then we have people handling special boss mechanics. This slot is for a healer, and this one for a tank? Can you make a tank heal slot? Can you set your build tags to satisfy the tank heal slot? How about chrono tower? How does the game check?
2) Will work, by virtue of changing the entire game, every encounter. Which is either an absolutely massive amount of work, or just a huge amount of work dumbing everything down. 

It wouldnt work for raids. Fully agree.

For normal strikes it could work. You could simplify it and just have 2 spots for healers and 8 dps. Normal strikes are easily done without boon synergies. Woj, BS and HT would probably fail a lot but others would be just fine. Would I use it, probably not for strikes because right now its easy to get a fast and quality group for them. But having such a system in place you can use it also for dungeons and T1 fractals where this would work perfectly.  It just depends if this would actually increase player participation in those modes. Because if you want to join groups now its not really a problem.

[The Boz.2038]

If an LFG is listed "LF HAM W5 G2 10kp", and you
a) are not a HAM
b) do not know what W5 means
c) do not know what G2 means
d) do not have 10kp
maybe don't join that LFG that """"doesn't actually communicate any sort of restrictiveness""""? 
Like, just a thought?

Why should there be empathy for people who are all "The LFG didn't specifically tell me not to join by name, so I joined, lol"? 

[Biziut.3594]

I'am starting to think that this topic never was about some "Wrong naming of guy being a kitten". It is all another rant about how other ppls dare to make groups with reqs and how they dare to do content succesfully when they can not.

I've seen some ppls suggesting Labjax and other guys to create their own "all welcome" runs. It would seem like perfect solution of their problem, squad without those evil restrictions they so despise. But! And there is a HUGE BUT. They will never do "all welcome" run becouse they are perfectly aware that this runs have nearly 0% chance of winning the fight, especially ones with harder mechanic. And so they will rant and scorn all of this ppls that actually put effort into creating the squad that have a high chance to clear the wing only becouse they cannot be one of them.

Too lazy to play and learn, but never too lazy to waste time on another pointless rant about imaginary toxic elitists.

[The Boz.2038]

39 minutes ago, Biziut.3594 said:

It is all another rant about how other ppls dare to make groups with reqs and how they dare to do content succesfully when they can not

Kerr-ding!
And it isn't even the first, second, or third such in the past two months or so.