Drawbacks of elite specializations

[Jaden.1420]

This post is a reminder that Anet formulated a balance philosophy in 2019 that every elite spec should include a certain disadvantage compared to the respective core class and subsequently introduced several to specs that didn't have any at this point. I recommend an examination/update of this. Some of the new specs don't seem to have any. Some seem more punishing than others. Some don't seem up to date anymore (Druid vs Mech). Here's a list of all elite specs and their drawbacks imo.

BERSERKER Reduced toughness in Berserk Mode (got introduced 2019)
SPELLBREAKER Maximum adrenaline reduced
BLADESWORN Only one weapon set

DRAGONHUNTER Cast time on F-Skills (I guess)
FIREBRAND same
WILLBENDER same

HERALD No access to Ancient Echo  (got introduced 2019; didn't even know this existed)
RENEGADE same
VINDICATOR same, limited endurance/dodges

DRUID Pet attributes reduced (got introduced 2019)
SOULBEAST No pet swap in combat
UNTAMED ?

SCRAPPER No toolbelt skill F5, Reduced vitality
HOLOSMITH No toolbelt skill F5
MECHANIST No access to toolbelt at all

DAREDEVIL Steal has reduced range (got introduced 2019)
DEADEYE No shadowstep at F1, no class resource at combat entry
SPECTER No shadowstep at F1, reduced initiative

TEMPEST Longer attunement cooldowns after overload
WEAVER Some weapon skills are not immediately accessible
CATALYST ?

REAPER Shroud skills are melee and consumes life force faster
SCOURGE No shroud at all
HARBINGER Shroud does not protect healthpool, possibly reduced maximum health

CHRONOMANCER No invulnerability on F4
MIRAGE In PvE ?, in competitive modes limited endurance/dodges
VIRTUOSO Cast time on F-Skills

Edited July 30, 2022 by Jaden.1420
Reaper & Specter revised

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

You didn't even capture the whole drawbacks mate.

Let me remind you what they are for the warrior specs:

Berserker: Loss of Core F1's entirely, F1s locked behind a mode that requires a resource to build, and you lose 300 toughness in the mode.
Spellbreaker: Capped adrenaline, can only use T1 bursts
Bladesworn: Loss of Core F1's entirely, loss of weapon swap, Bursts locked behind a mode that requires a double resource charge to access.

Reaper's trade off is techically the increased shroud degen, not the melee.

You're right though that the tradeoffs that are in the game are not fairly designed and hold some specs back more than others.

Catalyst doesn't really have a tradeoff formally btw. In Beta Willbenders got to pick their negative stat trade off (luck SOBs), but the outcry got them removed, yet Berserker and Scrapper still have negative stats despite their outcries.

[ASP.8093]

1 hour ago, Jaden.1420 said:

SPECTER No shadowstep at F1 (?)

-3 initiative

[oscuro.9720]

14 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Reaper's trade off is techically the increased shroud degen, not the melee.

.

Technically being melee is a trade off. It’s mitigated by Reaper shroud cleaving targets and having on demand mobility in it. If two skills do the same thing, but one is ranged, the ranged one is better.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Technically being melee is a trade off. It’s mitigated by Reaper shroud cleaving targets and having on demand mobility in it. If two skills do the same thing, but one is ranged, the ranged one is better.

Difference between a ranged defense shroud and an offensive melee shroud. The "negative" is the extra shroud degen.

[Jaden.1420]

Thanks for the remarks, I corrected Reaper and Specter.

Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between drawback and just a different mechanic. For example, Anet obviously didn't think that Burst skills locked into Berserk is a drawback, otherwise they wouldn't have added the artifical toughness penalty.

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Difference between a ranged defense shroud and an offensive melee shroud. The "negative" is the extra shroud degen.

Yea, but it’s still a trade off. A trade off isn’t just a negative. It’s accepting a weakness in one area for an advantage in another area, and generally should reference what is gained as much as what is lost. Or, at least, so I would argue. 
 

A negative is just a negative, though that does seem to be one of the ways that Anet has been framing “trade offs” (for some classes at least, maybe not for others), so it’s definitely fair to look at it that way 😀
 

edit: I just realized this is titled “drawbacks of specialization” not “trade offs”, so nvm, I’m dumb and wrong 😂

Edited July 30, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Berserker Drawbacks:

• No Core Bursts.
• -300 Thoughness.
• Forced to use a Adrenalin Filling Skill or the Spec is unplayable.
• Forced to use Rage Skills to extend Berserker Duration.
• Berserker Form has a Duration and you are basically less then 2/3 of a core Warrior outside of it.
• Berserker Form has a casttime???
• You are forced into melee range if you want to extend your Berserker Duration (Rage Skills) so no good synergy with Warriors Range options.

Im pretty sure im forgetting something.

[Xaylin.1860]

9 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Difference between a ranged defense shroud and an offensive melee shroud. The "negative" is the extra shroud degen.

I'm generally with you on the drawbacks you've listed for Warrior specs. But if you list the loss of core F1 bursts, then so is the loss of core Shroud skills 😉 Everything else would be applying different measures.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I'm generally with you on the drawbacks you've listed for Warrior specs. But if you list the loss of core F1 bursts, then so is the loss of core Shroud skills 😉 Everything else would be applying different measures.

We can split hairs if we want. To be honest I think warrior needs core F2 bursts for the offhand weapons, double if two hander. 

Then Berserker can get an F2 to build adrenaline out of Berserk, and when in berserk exits the mode early. The toughness penalty can go away then, and for BSW weapon swap can come back.

[Zyreva.1078]

The only drawback an elite spec should have is the innate downside of not being able to use another traitline instead - which would be enough of a drawback if specs were balanced as they should be. Just like for example taking druid results in less dmg, even without the nonsensical pet stat penalty and untamed is balanced or even on the weaker side of things despite having "no" downside. But randomly slapping artificial downsides on some specs (and not on many others - and no, having you class mechanic replaced by a better mechanic is no draw back) without considering overall balance has been an awful desicion and done more harm than good.

Edited July 30, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[SlaYer.2138]

Willbender drawback is losing passive for F1,2,3 skills. Normally the 3 virtue skills work like a signet, but for Willbender, they work like a stance. Also, only one virtue can act as a time.

[pallas.8150]

Sword Weaver without a weapon swap literally forces you into melee. Once you are engaged in a fight, if the other person is able to go ranged, you literally cannot. Definite drawback.

[Lysico.4906]

Scrapper has f5 btw.  Function gyro

[Ragnar.4257]

You seem very confused. They never stated that elite-specs would have a "drawback". What they said was that they would have "trade-off".

A trade-off means you lose X and gain Y.

Reaper is the classic example of this. You lose Deathshroud and gain Reapershroud. 

Ideally Deathshroud and Reapershroud are equally "powerful" and the difference is only one of playstyle.

The only case where a "drawback" is necessary to create a "trade-off" is when the elite-spec gains something which is obviously an UPgrade from core and not just a SIDEgrade.

All of that said, the entire concept of having a stated "trade-off" is stupid, since it leads to competitions like this between class-mains complaining about who has the biggest trade-off. Just balance the specs, don't be worrying about an arbitrary quota of trade-offs.