Revenant Feedback after a long while away.

[Thornwolf.9721]

Hey there, I'm sure ya'll remember me or those of you who do are likely rolling their eyes and going "Well I thought we finally got rid of him". But After an extended break from the game (Since the launch of EoD) I've come back because I honestly missed my rev. That being said I've kind of played other games and found that what it was I was missing is no longer here on the class really; Or at least the class I recall is not here and I think having read many of the threads here ... we're all kind of feeling it? I've seen people who are adamantly sure the game is fine, all of us who have issues are bad and clearly know nothing about our class of choice... now singing the tune many of those I used to play with and myself were singing? So rather then flaming anyone I kind of want us, the revenant community or what is left of it to come together and just put the things we miss into a feedback thread. (Note this is not just for, hey this would've been cool but is more for aspects of the class pieces we've lost.) 

As the author of the post I'll start and give some of mine.

                        

1. I miss empty vessel. When this thing was in the game we were still hard to pin down; We became one of the best melee characters in the game because we could dive into a team fight and still maintain momentum. It felt cool and we felt empowered by the legends we were channeling; As if the mists surging through us removed anything keeping us locked in place which was nice because honestly a ton of the legends even now kind of suck. (I've never really been a condi rev, power was always my jam.)
2. I miss staff, the way staff used to be. The weapon feels bad and has only seemingly grown to feel worse which is not the best feeling. Especially when it is pivotal in anything non-renegade related for our defensive weapon. 
3. I miss hammer. Whatever this hunk of metal on a stick is... it feels bad.
4. Despite not really playing condi rev, I do miss old mallyx and his immunity to condition damage/redistribution of said condition damage. I feel like it was unique and overtime he has just kind of lost what made him cool. 
5. And finally... I miss the original version of sword off-hand which had a block, and teleport/pull which came with the original variation of revenant. I loved teleporting in and striking someone; Only to yoink them through the mists and finish them. Or blocking a huge burst only to turn around and strike them with shackling wave. I miss the duelist feeling of power revenant.. now we feel like a discount warrior/thief but with the tricks of neither.
   
   
   I know people will likely disagree; Which is fine. It's impossible for human beings to really agree on anything but these are the bits that I Feel helped contribute to the state rev is in now and why it doesn't feel nearly as impactful or fun. I miss it's gameplay; I love the class. But I feel like it's a shell of it's former self and I Feel that the class overall has suffered a ton since PoF because of both ren and now vin so many un-nessacary changes have been made.  The sigil swap proc was removed due to vin, and many many more changes were made because of ren (We lost empty vessel due to ren, as it had been left in the game all the way up until its minor tweaks began which made it what it is. But it itself wasn't affected.. only herald and core suffered the loss.) 
   
   paired with condition removal that is limited in a condi-dominated game, and costly defensive utilities and weapon skills utilizing a resource that arena-net seems to lack the faintest understanding of... we're in a situation where they don't play or understand the class. It makes it hard to be excited for the future, or for any change they make due to knowing full well it won't be tested and it won't be made for ":fun" and rather because revenant isn't and likely will never be one of the "beloved baby classes".
   
   Post your thoughts below, and thank you fellow mist-walkers for coming to talk with me. As well reading my thoughts. ~ May your steps be relentless. 

[Esufer.8762]

I wish there wasn't an ad break before staff 5. We don't need a word from our sponsors every time I want to knock someone over.

I also really miss the sigil on legend swap as well, was fun to pop Hydromancy + Leeching during an unrelenting assault for a nice burst of damage. I think the biggest problem here it was just handwaved as a 'bug' after being confirmed that it was part of the class's design, without anything given to revenants to compensate (not even new sigils in EoD). The changes to Legendary Dwarf Stance felt a bit much as well, the change to the taunt really made it feel a lot worse.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1000% agree with Mallyx and his kitten condition management now. Resistance changes were not compensated for enough at all/maybe shouldn't have been done to begin with

[Zaret.1450]

17 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Hey there, I'm sure ya'll remember me or those of you who do are likely rolling their eyes and going "Well I thought we finally got rid of him". But After an extended break from the game (Since the launch of EoD) I've come back because I honestly missed my rev. That being said I've kind of played other games and found that what it was I was missing is no longer here on the class really; Or at least the class I recall is not here and I think having read many of the threads here ... we're all kind of feeling it? I've seen people who are adamantly sure the game is fine, all of us who have issues are bad and clearly know nothing about our class of choice... now singing the tune many of those I used to play with and myself were singing? So rather then flaming anyone I kind of want us, the revenant community or what is left of it to come together and just put the things we miss into a feedback thread. (Note this is not just for, hey this would've been cool but is more for aspects of the class pieces we've lost.) 

As the author of the post I'll start and give some of mine.

                        

1. I miss empty vessel. When this thing was in the game we were still hard to pin down; We became one of the best melee characters in the game because we could dive into a team fight and still maintain momentum. It felt cool and we felt empowered by the legends we were channeling; As if the mists surging through us removed anything keeping us locked in place which was nice because honestly a ton of the legends even now kind of suck. (I've never really been a condi rev, power was always my jam.)
2. I miss staff, the way staff used to be. The weapon feels bad and has only seemingly grown to feel worse which is not the best feeling. Especially when it is pivotal in anything non-renegade related for our defensive weapon. 
3. I miss hammer. Whatever this hunk of metal on a stick is... it feels bad.
4. Despite not really playing condi rev, I do miss old mallyx and his immunity to condition damage/redistribution of said condition damage. I feel like it was unique and overtime he has just kind of lost what made him cool. 
5. And finally... I miss the original version of sword off-hand which had a block, and teleport/pull which came with the original variation of revenant. I loved teleporting in and striking someone; Only to yoink them through the mists and finish them. Or blocking a huge burst only to turn around and strike them with shackling wave. I miss the duelist feeling of power revenant.. now we feel like a discount warrior/thief but with the tricks of neither.
   
   
   I know people will likely disagree; Which is fine. It's impossible for human beings to really agree on anything but these are the bits that I Feel helped contribute to the state rev is in now and why it doesn't feel nearly as impactful or fun. I miss it's gameplay; I love the class. But I feel like it's a shell of it's former self and I Feel that the class overall has suffered a ton since PoF because of both ren and now vin so many un-nessacary changes have been made.  The sigil swap proc was removed due to vin, and many many more changes were made because of ren (We lost empty vessel due to ren, as it had been left in the game all the way up until its minor tweaks began which made it what it is. But it itself wasn't affected.. only herald and core suffered the loss.) 
   
   paired with condition removal that is limited in a condi-dominated game, and costly defensive utilities and weapon skills utilizing a resource that arena-net seems to lack the faintest understanding of... we're in a situation where they don't play or understand the class. It makes it hard to be excited for the future, or for any change they make due to knowing full well it won't be tested and it won't be made for ":fun" and rather because revenant isn't and likely will never be one of the "beloved baby classes".
   
   Post your thoughts below, and thank you fellow mist-walkers for coming to talk with me. As well reading my thoughts. ~ May your steps be relentless. 

We all know rev is like that failed experiment anet wants to bury, i mean... sry devs and dont ban me but.... you know that we know that you hate rev, ventary changes were good, maybe theres someone who wants rev to come back to life.... yeah i saw the bad joke of rev being rev XD, but the thing is, vindi is like every rev elite out there, a bunch of things smashed together and working barely and mainly because we force it a bit, the ideas are good, implementation.... sry, i dont know how to code, but im completely sure i can make up ideas so rev works a thousand times smoother.

 

First of all i agree, staff feels bad, its a heal weapon, but does almost nothing, its only used because of the cc and blocks, needs much more work, hammer? well its not bad in wvw where its designed to be used but... maybe a couple changes, so it keeps up with the times, i dont realy use it much.

if im not mistaken empty vessel was break cc on swap right? i didnt realy use it before, but itd be great to have it if im honest.

for the old sword, i think you might like gs, it has a block that hits like a truck, not as much area but hey its good if you know how to use it, gs3 is a dash... wich should end in a pull and i dont know why they havent done that change already, out of that gs is a good pvp weapon.

mallynx i kinda like it more now, maybe because i realy didnt like condi and never used it that much before the change.

 

Now, i know i know, i said some heavy things up there, but be honest, rev has been awfull out of alacren and condi ren for a long time, and those 2 werent good, they just were completely overpowered and made no sense, yeah now theyre making good improvements, finaly herald has quick, man i have been saying herald needed that for years, and ventary finaly works well, so we can have hope, good work, keep going, great.

BUT we could get better and more important changes, what people say is right, rev is like a warrior and a thief smashed together and were family or smth, because rev mecanic is completely awfull.

Dont get me wrong, i like energy, what i dont like is how it works now with the skills, let me point out some things:

1 having 2 legends and 2 weapons right now feels and works as if we just had 4 weapon sets and we were rotating between the 4, think about it, gs has a set of skills we cant change, and has both energy and cd requirements, the same goes for any legend out there, a static set of skills and we swap to change to another set of skills, legends are weapons, i say this because the "bug" of sigil legend swap, maybe its a bit too strong but it wasnt a bug, and we should have that bug back.

2 legend skills, dont you think shiro jade winds is mostly useless? i mean if youre gonna use that maybe better use IO or swap or smth, even its cc is pretty bad for a 50 drain skill, id prefer if at least we could choose where the winds appear, a targeted area skill, similar to scavenger burst, maybe making it tick, 5 tics, 5 enemies, and if all hits you petrify, if not at least you do dmg, 1000 per hit or smth, think about it, would be broken, maybe, but you literaly are forced to swap after that, you can fail it and people can evade and run out, i feel it would be balanced that way.

3Last of all, the core mecanic, you know how thief work right? weapons drain initiative, while heal and so on have cds, how about we get the oposite? weapons work on cd, while legends work on energy, legend skills usualy drain from 25 to 50 energy, except heals and a couple things, that would mean you can use a couple skills per legend and use weapon skills without them getying in the way of the other, its a copy of thief? well yeah but now it is too, just now every skill gets in the way of the others, you allwais lack energy or have too much, maybe you could add some kind of unique f skill, like an energy charge, an upkeep that when used your weapon skills drain energy for upgraded effects, jut they drain more than they do now, also remember herald, renegade and vindi have unique mecanics of their own, upkeeps forever, orders, the 3 legends and strange jump, maybe simplifying would do more help than dmg, would it be broken? dont think so, i mean youd just need to update some numbers for cds or drains and itd be the same but probably feel much smoother.

[Buran.3796]

  I agree with the 4 first points and would also add that I miss the quickness from Impossible Odds.

   Related to the 23th August changes, I don't care them since I won't touch a power Rev with a 10 feet staff, and talking about staves, I won't use that weapon again.

[Angesombre.4630]

The revenant has changed so much removing the resistance, changing the torment, the sigil on the switch of legend that is not a "bug" and that works in PvP. It's a nerf because of the vindicator release but still they manage to make it so that there is no energy boost on the alliance by changing the color.

I don't like the way speed has been set to herald, for skill use while buffs are applied with energy consumption.
The shield could use some adjustments.
The hammer we don't talk about skill 2 it's from .....
The stick is useful to heal and block, the 3 of the sword bug in WvW towards the supply that one attacks, it is not the only one but remains a bug.
The jump dodge bug, the skill 3 GS bug. They wanted to make a hybrid specialized in the heal still with very little support buff.

Fan of the first day, for almost 3 years it is a free fall of nerf. The worst thing is that for mallyx they didn't try to fix all the changes.
The dwarf this nerf on Forced Engagement that was completely done in a dumb way.

The only improvement they did right is the 3 of the short arc which was not good before.

I put back the link of the conversation for the sigil exchange.
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/108543-fixed-a-bug-that-caused-legend-swapping-to-activate-certain-sigils-that-activate-when-swapping-weapons/page/7/?tab=comments#comment-1734086

[Angesombre.4630]

 

On 25/06/2022 at 13:46, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

With new light on the balance

Bovan — 12/02/2021
Renegade is one of the biggest outliers I would bring forth. Their personal DPS without help seems to be in the right ballpark, but when you add in the extra damage that allies gain through Assassin's Presence, and the higher personal DPS they gain from sharing Razorclaw's Rage they definitely contribute more than 40k DPS. Even without Assassin's Presence in mind.
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
The condi ren problem is really with weapon swap sigils, I think
Those need to not trigger on legend swap, but I haven't gotten a good look into it to see if that's feasable
Bovan — 12/02/2021
I'll add onto that that I find things that you need to share with allies very difficult to deal with. Ashes from Firebrand, bleeding stacks from Razorclaw's Rage and Thief Venoms always are a nightmare to work with. 
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
I consider those part of the personal DPS target in a group
Angeels — 12/02/2021
this would be a really bad change for pvp/wvw
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
You can swap weapons in pvp/wvw, yes?
Angeels — 12/02/2021
well with how rev weapons are designed
you need that swap on legend swap
Bovan — 12/02/2021
That makes sense, but I always felt because they relied on outside sources that you have no control over they maybe are fine being a little bit higher compared to something like Sharpening Stones from a Ranger. If you buff allies who die, hit the wrong target, or not consume the stacks you end up losing out.
Angeels — 12/02/2021
since rev weapons are focused on one facet
ie offence, defence, etc.
if a player has to swap to staff for their energy sigil proc
then they lose all their damage
and no other class has that issue
Xyonon — 12/02/2021
what?
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
Yeah, that's just untrue.
Xyonon — 12/02/2021
every other class just has to weapon swap 😄
Angeels — 12/02/2021
read what I said again
in the context of pvp
sword sword = zero defensive value which means that dodges are important
staff = high defensive value
currently you can swap legend and get your energy/cleansing/whatever sigil 
Xyonon — 12/02/2021
but that's just luxury, something other classes don't have
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
I'm really struggling to see how that's unique to Revenant.
Guardian just as much as for-purpose weapons. Staff is healing, hammer is CC, shield is defense, etc.

Professions with no in combat weapon swap do have other ways to activate it (attunement swap, etc.)
It's a problem that Rev is double dipping there.
It's just a longtime bug. I can see your argument 'we're used to it and have learned gameplay that depends on it', and while I acknowledge that's true, I think change can be fun, and new things will emerge that work- and if they don't, we can do PvP tuning to make sure there's builds that work.
Bovan — 12/02/2021
Initially I was going to say that I didn't like the idea of not triggering on swap sigils on Legends anymore. But thinking about it, I don't really have a good argument for keeping it around.
Angeels — 12/02/2021
I mean you can disagree but you'll have every top rev player turning around saying the exact same thing being pissed off with a change that honestly is thoroughly pointless
Kenzo — 12/02/2021
Imo they would be pissed for the wrong reason then tho
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
Well, if they're 'top players', I'm sure they'll adapt.
Of course, I don't even know that I 'can' make it not trigger on legend swap, heh
Bovan — 12/02/2021
While we are on a similar topic, are there any plans to look into on-heal traits and triggers for Mechanist who use Med Kit?
At the moment their toolbelt skill counts as their heal skill, but that is replaced with the golem's F1.
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
But my past digging into the condi ren outlier problem ended with not wanting to overly hurt shortbow only no swap builds more, because that's the more accessible route into an already hard to play spec (as you have to constantly swap legend), and so I want to find a spot to tone them down that won't further hurt the more accessible build.

By the way there is a very interesting post in this forum that I discovered not long ago on page 6 

[Zaret.1450]

14 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

 

By the way there is a very interesting post in this forum that I discovered not long ago on page 6 

Ok so rev remarks are useless, rev is unique because he has legend swap,.... firwband tomes, shrouds, foton forge?

Also rev legnds arent the same kind of skills as, say a guardian skills, guards for one have much more weapon options that rev doesnt have, and guard skills from health to elite are completely personalized, you choose your config, while rev has 2 legends with a set of skills that you cant change, and you need 2 to addapt to the situation..... WAIT doesnt that sound like weapon skills? a set of skills? that you cant change? and you need a SWAP to do things? also both weapons and legends use the exact same resources?.... shiro has allwais been the rev dagger without me noticing.

Also the only sigil that would work on vindi is energy, the "bug" was removed probably because of condi ren overperforming, when a simple, " sigils have reduced effect on legend swap" would have been enought.

 

 

GUYS REALY legends are weapons, think about it, they were coded in a way that even WEAPON sigils worked on them, its just hilarious when you think that rev is the only class that uses 4 weapons and has no utility skills XD

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 8/17/2022 at 10:45 PM, Angesombre.4630 said:

 

By the way there is a very interesting post in this forum that I discovered not long ago on page 6 

I like how Solar here very obviously has absolutely no idea about the class and/or its history (the sigil swaps being intended gameplay by Roy who made Rev). “It’s just a longtime bug” yeah bro sorry it’s not and never has been,  but I guess when someone hasn’t worked at the company  for long or done their HW they can just handwave something they don’t like away as a bug. Imagine jumping into a 7 year developed class and tweaking it with extremely low overall experience lmao 
 

funny that the functionality change for sigil swaps wasn’t even necessary either to nerf cRen since they literally demolished battle scars and removed Assassin’s Presence entirely which was worse for the Devastation variant than the sigil swap removal by a long shot. And it just dumbed down the gameplay and also made the Invo variant slightly worse when it already had more problems than the deva variant anyway. Angeels was 100% right on this one. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The cruel irony of all this is that it wasn't the condi Renegade build that was nerfed by the sigil changes... much.  Condi Ren was the only build that swapped weapons regularly to do damage.  The build hurt the most was Herald, which required sitting on Sword/X to do damage.  So basically, the sigil change nerfed the wrong build and Anet lied to us.

[Zaret.1450]

7 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The cruel irony of all this is that it wasn't the condi Renegade build that was nerfed by the sigil changes... much.  Condi Ren was the only build that swapped weapons regularly to do damage.  The build hurt the most was Herald, which required sitting on Sword/X to do damage.  So basically, the sigil change nerfed the wrong build and Anet lied to us.

Think that anet has been keen in nerfing deva with the intention to nerf condi builds, wich is part of the reason power rev is in the spot it is now, the other part being mostly that rev has a huge difference in dmg vs huge hitbox conpared to normal/small, hitboxes.

Most bosses and enemies have small to medium hitbox so rev has overall less dmg than its potential would suggest.

[Baudrillard.4612]

I also recently returned to the game and was a bit of excited to play Vindi… My excitement doesn’t last long. As a primary pvp player I tried to roam a bit aaand… And it feels even more clunky than rene on launch:

 

- Evade is bugged and any shield/heal numbers are laughable, you can be ccd right in the mid air or receive random dmg. For example I was recently struck by the bladesworn’s dash while in the middle of the dodge. 
 

- New legends “Expresso 2 in 1” are making gameplay incredibly not fun. You need to constantly swap as mad to dish out any result — so many skills with no benefits at all. What are those heals? I need to channel in Victor for around 2 seconds to be healed for what? 2k? Same in that “I’m an orange guy” side of the legend. Why do they have 50 energy for both legends? Why those skills have such a little impact? I mean, I also play Cata in pvp and it is famous piano game but my gosh, how much more impactful Cata hammer skills are in comparison to Vindi. And I don’t even need to think about my precious energy management. 
 

- Staff nerfs just made this weapon useless but we still don’t have any competing option to swap it with. So I’m practically forced to use stuff despite the fact that it feels so terrible now. 

 

Then sigil nerf, dwarf nerf, all those nerfs while the main problem of the class is still not solved: the energy system is still very questionable and with each new spec creates more problems that solves. 
 

P.S. And hey, while having fun with all those Vindi nerfs I tried my old bud Herald. And it was (of course) ruined in the process. Now it feels slow, dmg is kinda low in comparison to Cata or other duelist and all you can do is to join +1 hoping that you won’t need to use staff. 
 

I really enjoy the revenant in theory, but my god, every time Im returning to the profession it feels just unfair. I need to press 22 btns, jump like crazy and get mediocre results while on bladesworn it takes no effort to 1v3 using just basic combos. 
 

Maybe I’m missing something and Vindi is a secret king on a pvp scene, but then you can explain me what am I doing wrong. It would be very much appreciated. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Baudrillard.4612

[Polar.8634]

they bump rev, could as well nerf rev in pve. How does it matter when probably most people who still play it try to use rev in competitive modes, where it is nerfed the most. I wonder why devs hate rev so much. I am sure every time new balance is coming they all gather, sip some wine(holding glass with 3 fingers) and decide how to make rev even worse in pvp/wvw. They also laugh evilishly every time they imagine the frustration of rev long time players, who love proffesion for it's style and can`t abandon it so easily.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

8 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

Think that anet has been keen in nerfing deva with the intention to nerf condi builds, wich is part of the reason power rev is in the spot it is now, the other part being mostly that rev has a huge difference in dmg vs huge hitbox conpared to normal/small, hitboxes.

Most bosses and enemies have small to medium hitbox so rev has overall less dmg than its potential would suggest.

They should have just nerfed Icerazor’s vuln output by half (or just nerfed Battle Scars earlier) but apparently that’s too big brain for Anet. They have to completely trash a traitline before actually doing the sensible nerfs 

[Buran.3796]

6 hours ago, Baudrillard.4612 said:

- Staff nerfs just made this weapon useless but we still don’t have any competing option to swap it with. So I’m practically forced to use stuff despite the fact that it feels so terrible now. 

   Currently I would say that staff is useless in every game mode outside conformed AT teams (for power Herald), since power Herald doesn't work in ranked with pugs.

   The backup weapons for gs are swords or sword + axe, since everything else just gives up too much damage. Talking about PvP, pre-nerfs Vindi worked only for maybe 50 players in the world. Then turned the heals which heal for 700 HP and were designed to be be spammed oftenly in a 700 HP heals with a 30s cooldown which finally sunk the ship. I won't run any Vindi build in any game mode anyway; mine is serving as a mule/alt parking character since May...  

[Howluffu.7259]

I am in hiatus from the game since vindi. Was excited to finally have a gs in my fav class. Turns out the elite is unfun and shhhh(1 dodge and is looooong and garbo WTF).

To make things worse they nerfed/changed several core rev things ruining the class overall.

I'm still lf good news everyday in the revenant section but these threads and comments are crushing my hopes of a return.

At this point I would rather have the elite spec weapons in core by default(we have so little core weapons) and seek for the new rev elite or stay as herald/core.

I miss having fun with rev.

[Polar.8634]

i got idea:

1. tomorrow go queensdale, have some exotic heavy armor and/or hammer and staff in inventory

2. give for free only to new revenants

3. more people make revs to get free staff

4. more poeple know how garbo rev and it's weapons are

5. forums flooded with unsatisfied players

6. anet buffs staff and hammer, maybe rev also

7. ... profit!

[Baudrillard.4612]

Unfortunately it wouldn’t  work 😂 Look at mesmers they were kings of any game mode during the HoT meta and they fell as deep as Lucifer after the PoF era joined the party. 
 

Since that the overall Mesmer playerbase has crumbled at least twice: guys just went playing necro or other classes with viable support or duelist builds. Did the whole forum whining save the day for mesmers? Unfortunately no. Mesmer is still “rolling in the deep” as Adel sings. 

I mean we could be not satisfied but that doesn’t influence any decisions made by ArenaNet team. All of my Rev friend are just playing Bladesworns or Willbenders, cause “they give the right samurai flavor”. 
 

And that’s sad. I am playing rev since HoT and with each year it seems like I am constantly pressed to other professions. It was a good moment when Rene/Herald were viable in PvP and Rene got Alac build in PvE but “everything was forever, until it was no more”. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Baudrillard.4612

[Polar.8634]

Alac Rene still good. Condi is better damage for now, maybe after buff power version will do too.