Changing Tactical Reload in favor of build variety

[Kayberz.5346]

"The best possible solution is to just make it core warrior with a tacked on mechanic just like spellbreaker and berserker because i cant be bothered to unlearn my muscle memory and play something different"

 

Its a good thing the devs ignore a lot of feedback here sometimes 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

2 hours ago, Delta.1526 said:

Yeah, I'm aware Shouts are ammo skills. I've been memeing on a First Aidsworn in PvE since EoD launched because Lush Forest and Tactical Reload meant Bladesworn was the only elite spec that at all fed into a Heal Warrior build. It wasn't good, but it was the best it possibly could be. Then the banner changes happened...and uh, well, it got way, way worse...but then a couple more patches happened and it became legitimately viable as a Heal Quick option. It's nowhere near the best in slot, but it works and has a niche as a highly reactive healer in a wide range. Power Bladesworn has also recently entered the PvE meta as the best potential Power damage when played optimally; it's not problematic for diversity in DPS picks at all because the rotation is demanding and it's far less stressful if you just accept the 3k DPS loss of  playing Power Mech and slam your palm on your keyboard. 

By 'current meta', I assume you're talking about PvP, and I agree that Healsworn is problematic there. It jams 3 heals on the bar and takes Runes of the Soldier for the condi cleanse, then runs all the incidental healing it can, resulting in an annoyingly resilient dork on point with up to 9 heal packets and up to 3 stunbreaks...but it can also murder you with Dragon Slash. The thing is, this build is currently boosted by a few bugs; DS Boost does weird things to the Dragon Trigger cooldown, and all 3 slashes have Daring Dragon's reset on Dragonscale Defenses, meaning everyone just runs the one that adds a 2.5s stun and ignores blinds and blocks as counterplay options. 

Talents working with Explosions rather than Ammo, and Tactical Reload boosts all CDs rather than giving ammo charges, would absolutely not improve build diversity in PvP. Explosions are mostly baked into the Bladesworn kit -- this change would take a concept that has interesting synergy with Warrior's weapons and utilities, and replace it with a parasitic mechanic that has nothing to do with the rest of Warrior unless they're on Longbow for some reason. Changing Tactical Reload from an ammunition charge to a generic cooldown reduction on your skills would be even worse, you'd run the same good stuff other warriors do, except because of your generic 'get your skills back' button you'd run it better. Congratulations, you've made the Warrior version of Chronomancer. 

Not only would it most likely kill build diversity for warrior in PvP by making Bladesworn the most reliable at having the skills it needs at any point, it'd blow up the weirdly healthy place Bladesworn is at in PvE. Quick Shoutsworn loses its ability to consistently panic heal in a pinch, benefits less from Lush Forest, and in exchange gets to overcap Quickness with the halved Banner CD. DPS Bladesworn doesn't really need Tactical Reload for bringing an ammo skill off cooldown and is already throwing out Explosions so there's very little downside, and the cooldown reduction on Dragonspike Mine would give it more Dragon Trigger resets -- so this would likely just be a straight up buff to what is already one of the highest benchmarks.

IMO, if we're aiming the nerf gun at PvP Bladesworn, the first step is to fix the stuff that's literally bugged so it Dragon Slashes less and doesn't always have the Stability. Step 2, look at Unyielding Dragon and change the PvP version to allow more counterplay. If needed, adjust the PvP build more; nerf the heal boost of River's Flow, the sustain of Unshakeable Mountain and tweak Tactical Reload's to give a fixed reduction to ammo skills. As an absolute last resort, give Rune of the Soldier a mild ICD that would make them choose between burst heal or heavy duty condi cleanse (or force them to burn Shake It Off). The build is a problem in PvP, so nerf it there. Balancing the flavor of the month PvP spec by removing any interesting synergy with the core class is a hilariously bad take.

EDIT: Oh, and changing TR to only work on explosion skills is the worst take of them all. Oh boy, I'm so glad there's an elite skill that'll let me cheat the cooldown of literally just Dragonspike Mine and some of my mediocre Gunblade skills...

Honestly I can completely understand not wanting to remove an Elite Specs synergy with Core functions/utilities, but this synergy is just a tad bit too bloated right now and I think needs to be addressed because its a lot. Also absolutely they need to address the bugs that honestly should be something they have fixed by now. As for the trait nerfs, that likely isn't going to result in enough of a hit to significantly impact their self sustain because Tactical Reload is still going to reload ammo count to just spam the shouts or heal again.

However I would agree making Tactical Reload have more of a fixed reduction to Ammo Count Recharge when used (i.e reduce Count Recharge on Ammo skills by 8* seconds when used) may be the better, less heavy handed approach. It would mean that its more about when it is used in relation to the current cooldown left on an ammo count rather than just tacking an additional ammo use onto the skills, if it isn't already at max ammo count, for the player to then just instantly mash the button again; which is actually more reminiscent of how "active" or "perfect" reloading has worked as a mechanic in actual shooters like Gears of War for instance. I'd be much more receptive to people needing to be additionally aware of their ammo count recharge times in the middle of a fight so as to know when best to use Tactical Reload.

Just as a very, very basic example of that as it plays out in my head, it would go from this;

Step 1. Bladesworn player is low health
Step 2. Pops all Shouts and Healing skill ammo uses
Step 3. Hits Tactical Reload
Step 4. Repeat Step 2

To this;

Step 1. Bladesworn player is low health
Step 2. Pops all Shouts and Healing skill ammo uses
Step 3. Hits Tactical Reload
Step 4. Oops. All your utilities are gone now.

Very general, basic example, but the point is that, at least on paper, it would require more actual thought to use it well in competitive play.

This is all of course just to bring Bladesworn in line, I don't think it would result in the other specs like Core, Berserker, or Spellbreaker climbing into prominence just from some tweaks like this. All of them need far more adjustment to not be where they are at right now. The biggest step they could take towards more build variety for Warrior would to bring these other three Specializations up to par, mechanically, with Bladesworn. Probably one of the best things they could do on that front is a rework of Defense.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Heavy handed or not, it's clear that TR recharging Ammo skills is driving the exact degenerate gameplay we pointed out in the beta, and this is what needs to be addressed. If they wanted faster recharge, then just have it be self Alacrity.

[Lighter.5631]

Bladesworn has no diversity, because almost everything is a different version of core skill, instead of something new

overcharge catridges is a replacement for signet of might,

flow stabilizer is replacement for signet of fury

that's it that's all.

 

it's not like other elite specs where you get new playstyle,

but bladesworn just, here you get a bladesworn version of utility that already exist.

obviously you gonna take the bladesworn version of these skills when you using bladesworn, because it is balanced around those skills and those skills are obviously better when used with bladesworn.

 

instead of having actual play style differences so you can have different playstyle.

 

bladesworn basically has minimum relation to core warrior 

 

[Kayberz.5346]

23 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

Bladesworn has no diversity, because almost everything is a different version of core skill, instead of something new

overcharge catridges is a replacement for signet of might,

flow stabilizer is replacement for signet of fury

that's it that's all.

 

it's not like other elite specs where you get new playstyle,

but bladesworn just, here you get a bladesworn version of utility that already exist.

obviously you gonna take the bladesworn version of these skills when you using bladesworn, because it is balanced around those skills and those skills are obviously better when used with bladesworn.

 

instead of having actual play style differences so you can have different playstyle.

 

bladesworn basically has minimum relation to core warrior 

 

Your entire argument is just objectively false and contradicts itself 

 

You say bladesworn has minimum relation to core warrior but at the same time claim its skills are just copies of core warrior skills. ?????

Bladesworns utlities are NOTHING  like signets

Bladesworn BY FAR changes the playstyle of warrior the most of any of its elite specs.

 

Every other elite spec for warrior is just core warrior with 1 mechanic tacked on and they all basically have the same exact playstyle.

 

Your argument makes no sense to the point it almost feels like its just a deliberate attempt to troll

[Delta.1526]

3 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

This is all of course just to bring Bladesworn in line, I don't think it would result in the other specs like Core, Berserker, or Spellbreaker climbing into prominence just from some tweaks like this. All of them need far more adjustment to not be where they are at right now. The biggest step they could take towards more build variety for Warrior would to bring these other three Specializations up to par, mechanically, with Bladesworn. Probably one of the best things they could do on that front is a rework of Defense.

 

Yeah, I agree. Nerfing Bladesworn wouldn't suddenly make Healbreaker more viable, it'd be in the exact same place it was before. I do think that number tuning could work to bring Bladesworn's survivability in line, it gets a huge amount of Barrier from casting the final ammo charge ie. when it's run out of that resource. Also it gets personally healed from shouts more effectively. These little things really do add up to quite a lot in competitive, but losing ammo synergy is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

A Defense rework would be cool if done alongside buffs to the other elite specs.

[oscuro.9720]

3 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Your entire argument is just objectively false and contradicts itself 

 

You say bladesworn has minimum relation to core warrior but at the same time claim its skills are just copies of core warrior skills. ?????

Bladesworns utlities are NOTHING  like signets

Bladesworn BY FAR changes the playstyle of warrior the most of any of its elite specs.

 

Every other elite spec for warrior is just core warrior with 1 mechanic tacked on and they all basically have the same exact playstyle.

 

Your argument makes no sense to the point it almost feels like its just a deliberate attempt to troll

Not that I agree with the guy you are responding to, bladesworn definitely changes warrior play style dramatically, but the other warrior specs really don’t have the same play style unless you are playing at low gold level. Spell is very different from core, as is berserker. Just because they all have high CC and are power based doesn’t mean they all play the same. 

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Healbreaker was a last ditch effort to maintain a viable build for ranked conquest after the slew of nerfs decimated warrior build options.

Healbreaker could become a truly viable build on it's own with some AoE boon application built into Spellbreaker.

Even when the sustain on BSW is nerfed, because of UD's blind immunity, block immunity, and stun+damage BSW will still have a place. Indeed I do think that you'll see people running DSM + DS to use back to back damaging stuns, you just don't see it now because Shoutsworn carries too hard to not use.

I don't think this is really true - healbreaker was the meta support build for a while between Tempest being nerfed and healbreaker being nerfed in turn so that core shout guardian rose to the top. That said, I certainly wouldn't complain about some team boon application being added to Spellbreaker.

 

11 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

However I would agree making Tactical Reload have more of a fixed reduction to Ammo Count Recharge when used (i.e reduce Count Recharge on Ammo skills by 8* seconds when used) may be the better, less heavy handed approach. It would mean that its more about when it is used in relation to the current cooldown left on an ammo count rather than just tacking an additional ammo use onto the skills, if it isn't already at max ammo count, for the player to then just instantly mash the button again; which is actually more reminiscent of how "active" or "perfect" reloading has worked as a mechanic in actual shooters like Gears of War for instance. I'd be much more receptive to people needing to be additionally aware of their ammo count recharge times in the middle of a fight so as to know when best to use Tactical Reload.

That's an interesting approach. There is, in fact, precedent for things like that being done as a split. As an example, Signet of the Ether recharges 100% of the recharge of phantasm skills in PvE, but only 50% in competitive. So there's no in-principle reason why Tactical Reload couldn't have a similar split.

7 hours ago, Delta.1526 said:

 

Yeah, I agree. Nerfing Bladesworn wouldn't suddenly make Healbreaker more viable, it'd be in the exact same place it was before. I do think that number tuning could work to bring Bladesworn's survivability in line, it gets a huge amount of Barrier from casting the final ammo charge ie. when it's run out of that resource. Also it gets personally healed from shouts more effectively. These little things really do add up to quite a lot in competitive, but losing ammo synergy is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

A Defense rework would be cool if done alongside buffs to the other elite specs.

Technically speaking, healbreaker has been buffed since EoD launched. It's just hard to judge if it was enough to actually be viable since anyone thinking of playing shout warrior is going to go to shoutsworn instead.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

People still not realizing that ammo recharge is the issue, are most probably unable to understand how Spellbreaker is different from Core...

Interesting!

Edited September 3, 2022 by Grand Marshal.4098