Changing Tactical Reload in favor of build variety

[Zekent.3652]

We all know (except the biased peepos) that Bladesworn really lacks on build variety, a change on Tactical Reload could probably change that:

"Reloads ammo to all of your profession kills" to > "Reduces 50% cooldown of ALL of your profession skills", that means if EP is on 30s CD, it would reduce 20s (the 50% of the base CD), not 15s.

So you could use more than just shouts to be viable.
 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

It really should just reload explosion skills. The fact that it affects ALL of warrior's ammo skills is itself the problem, even it if it is a 50% reduction on all warrior skills.

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It really should just reload explosion skills. The fact that it affects ALL of warrior's ammo skills is itself the problem, even it if it is a 50% reduction on all warrior skills.

You could also change it to make it so that explosion skills have no cool down when used for the next X number of seconds. Would that be broken also? Almost certainly. Would it be broken in a more fun way? Absolutely! Artillery slash becomes artillery barrage. We are mechanist now. 

[Delta.1526]

Why would that help? Its entire master trait selection is about using ammo. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Delta.1526 said:

Why would that help? Its entire master trait selection is about using ammo. 

And that too needs to change to be focused on explosion skills rather than ammo skills.

[Vinny.7260]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It really should just reload explosion skills. The fact that it affects ALL of warrior's ammo skills is itself the problem, even it if it is a 50% reduction on all warrior skills.

This is definitely is the better approach to go about things. Reload specifically Bladesworn ammunition skills while having the Dragon Trigger bonus effect. That way it doesn't kill the potential future builds using shouts, such as Healbreaker in PvP, and doesn't nerf Core like every other balance patch seems to do to every profession.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Delta.1526 said:

Why would that help? Its entire master trait selection is about using ammo. 

The past year has shown that BsW abuses ammo in the worst way possible. The main idea on nerfing BsW without nerfing core warrior is obviously to cut off it's synergy with ammo skills.

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

The most hilarious part is anet changing so many warrior skills into ammo skills. It's like they didn't even plan in how they would make an ammo espec work with the rest of what the class had to offer.

It just further convinces me that Bladesworn was purely for promotion of EoD. No real thought went into how warrior works with the espec at all.

But hey, it's a business. They have to make profit. Whatever. At least they stopped hurting the class.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

52 minutes ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

 

But hey, it's a business. They have to make profit. Whatever. At least they stopped hurting the class.

Don't challenge CMC.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

7 hours ago, Delta.1526 said:

Why would that help? Its entire master trait selection is about using ammo. 

Yup, and what particular type of Utility skills use ammo? Shouts. And what do those Shouts do for Bladesworn in the current meta? Help give them exceptionally strong self sustain.

The intention to make that entire column synergize with ammo skills with the gunblade kit out is clear, its just that...it sort of exacerbated, or I'd argue created, a bit of a sustain bloat due to how Shouts function.

Them changing how the Elite works, as well as making that column work with (as @Lan Deathrider.5910 said) Explosion skills instead would be a way of helping to reign in the Shoutsworn builds bloated sustain while not impacting sustain so much on Core, Berserker, or Spellbreaker builds because the absolute last thing that we want is for ANet to nerf those Specializations even more just to tone down Shoutsworn when they are already in a not too particularly great state.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

12 hours ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

The most hilarious part is anet changing so many warrior skills into ammo skills. It's like they didn't even plan in how they would make an ammo espec work with the rest of what the class had to offer.

It just further convinces me that Bladesworn was purely for promotion of EoD. No real thought went into how warrior works with the espec at all.

But hey, it's a business. They have to make profit. Whatever. At least they stopped hurting the class.

Stopped hurting the class? Wait till next balance patch, this is warrior and anet were talking about so just wait to see how much were gona pay for having a meta build for few months, expect all war specs to be mediocre in all pvp modes very soon as they just gotta deal with pesky bladesworn.

[Zekent.3652]

On 8/31/2022 at 6:43 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It really should just reload explosion skills. The fact that it affects ALL of warrior's ammo skills is itself the problem, even it if it is a 50% reduction on all warrior skills.

Actually, i like this idea, but should reload all of BS skills (except core ones), not just the explosion ones, i think that's too much.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Zizekent.2398

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Actually, i like this idea, but should reload all of BS skills (except core ones), not just the explosion ones, i think that's too much.

Explosion skills covers Dragon Slash, the Gunsaber skills, Dragons Roar, a few of the utilities, and a few skills on Rifle and Longbow. So most of the BSW skills anyway plus 2 others on underutilized weapons.

It conveniently leaves out Flow Stabilizer and Combat Stimulant. Which is a large part of how you curb the excessive sustain.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/1/2022 at 9:43 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It really should just reload explosion skills. The fact that it affects ALL of warrior's ammo skills is itself the problem, even it if it is a 50% reduction on all warrior skills.

I'm a bit concerned that this would result in even less build variety in the end - it'd make shouts less attractive to be sure, but would push in the direction of pretty much only using bladesworn utility skills as much as possible.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm a bit concerned that this would result in even less build variety in the end - it'd make shouts less attractive to be sure, but would push in the direction of pretty much only using bladesworn utility skills as much as possible.

Wouldn't that just be a one for one tradeoff though? As right now only shouts get used on it in competitive.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Wouldn't that just be a one for one tradeoff though? As right now only shouts get used on it in competitive.

Depends. Would it get used for anything in competitive without?

PvE is using Dragonspike, Stabiliser, and Overcharged. If the proposed change was made, and Bladesworn survived in competitive, it'd probably end up being similar to that, maybe with a bit of condi removal, as a glassy damage build. Or, possibly more likely, it'll just keep using the shouts because the sustain is needed and it still has trait synergy even if it can no longer refresh them with Tactical Reload. Which could, admittedly, be a step towards allowing healbreaker to come back. But either way, I don't think narrowing the list of skills Tactical Reload can be used on (yes, there are some explosion skills that aren't ammo skills, but not many) is going to create more diversity in bladesworn builds. At best, it might be a step towards making other elite specs more viable without supercharging bladesworn in the process.

[Kayberz.5346]

They dont want "build diversity" they just want to delete the current competitive build and use "build diversity" to mask their true motives.

But imo their clear and stated bias of not liking bladesworn makes their approach flawed.

 

Instead of they should be advocating for core warrior buffs/changes which ACTUALLY would promote build diversity rather than outright deleting the synergy bladesworn has with shouts using tactical reload.

If other core warrior utlities and weapons were buffed bladesworn cant use all of them, they could use some shouts and some core utlities or bladesworn abilities but not all at the same time , so it creates choice and tradeoff

 

The bladesworn haters dont seem to consider the fact that most of bladesworns effectiveness comes from bladesworn exclusive traits and abilities, buffing core warrior outside of shouts isnt going to necessarily make the current bladesworn shout build even more powerful. Rather it would give them an alternative build path rather than powercreeping their current competitive shout build. 

You dont need to completely change the functionality of tactical reload, a longer cooldown in pvp would be more than enough to curb its power in competitive modes without destroying its function in pve modes and intended synergy with core ammo skills.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Kayberz.5346

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

3 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Stopped hurting the class? Wait till next balance patch, this is warrior and anet were talking about so just wait to see how much were gona pay for having a meta build for few months, expect all war specs to be mediocre in all pvp modes very soon as they just gotta deal with pesky bladesworn.

I'll only say that because of how terrible the previous banner patch was, they'll be way more cautious in how they go about balancing warrior. The blatant disrespect was noticed by all, including people that don't even play warrior.

And one more thing. Warrior will never be top dog again in pvp. They've made that much clear.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Depends. Would it get used for anything in competitive without?

PvE is using Dragonspike, Stabiliser, and Overcharged. If the proposed change was made, and Bladesworn survived in competitive, it'd probably end up being similar to that, maybe with a bit of condi removal, as a glassy damage build. Or, possibly more likely, it'll just keep using the shouts because the sustain is needed and it still has trait synergy even if it can no longer refresh them with Tactical Reload. Which could, admittedly, be a step towards allowing healbreaker to come back. But either way, I don't think narrowing the list of skills Tactical Reload can be used on (yes, there are some explosion skills that aren't ammo skills, but not many) is going to create more diversity in bladesworn builds. At best, it might be a step towards making other elite specs more viable without supercharging bladesworn in the process.

Competitive would revert back to Bull's Charge, SiO, and maybe one of the Armaments. You may also see Dragonspike mine get used to setup back to back CC's from UD. You might see EF get used. The point is the overloaded sustain pushes out any build diversity.

Personally I think having an elite like TR in the first place was a bad balance decision and a lazy one. Having it only recharge explosion skills at least keeps it's flavor and intent while reigning in a very obviously overperforming aspect of the spec in competitive.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Competitive would revert back to Bull's Charge, SiO, and maybe one of the Armaments. You may also see Dragonspike mine get used to setup back to back CC's from UD. You might see EF get used. The point is the overloaded sustain pushes out any build diversity.

Personally I think having an elite like TR in the first place was a bad balance decision and a lazy one. Having it only recharge explosion skills at least keeps it's flavor and intent while reigning in a very obviously overperforming aspect of the spec in competitive.

 

If bladesworn reverts to using the same utility pair that Strength Dagger and Greataxe have been using for years, I'd consider that to be less diversity overall, not more.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If bladesworn reverts to using the same utility pair that Strength Dagger and Greataxe have been using for years, I'd consider that to be less diversity overall, not more.

Not necessarily. If the Middle tier of traits were worked to key off of explosions like I keep stating in conjunction with TR there would still be pressure on BSW to take explosions on the utility bar.

SiO is mandatory no matter what just from the condition cleansing, especially since BSW will still take CS over Mending. Bull's Charge could easily be swapped for Dragonspike Mine. OC might get taken to increase the spike on AS spam or the detonate flipover could be used as a part of the DS->DSM->DS CC lock chain. You might see BC+DSM taken on a bar for the double evades.

The point is that we won't know because one specific combination is so powerful in conjunction with the ammo related traits and TR being ammo based that nothing else even has a chance to compete in the bar. And since that combination is so powerful it has a giant NERF ME target on it's back for Anet to bonk with their nerf bat, and we all would rather that nerf bat hit the problem at it's source, TR and the ammo traits, rather than the core skills that are not overperforming on any of the other warrior specs.

[draxynnic.3719]

41 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Not necessarily. If the Middle tier of traits were worked to key off of explosions like I keep stating in conjunction with TR there would still be pressure on BSW to take explosions on the utility bar.

SiO is mandatory no matter what just from the condition cleansing, especially since BSW will still take CS over Mending. Bull's Charge could easily be swapped for Dragonspike Mine. OC might get taken to increase the spike on AS spam or the detonate flipover could be used as a part of the DS->DSM->DS CC lock chain. You might see BC+DSM taken on a bar for the double evades.

The point is that we won't know because one specific combination is so powerful in conjunction with the ammo related traits and TR being ammo based that nothing else even has a chance to compete in the bar. And since that combination is so powerful it has a giant NERF ME target on it's back for Anet to bonk with their nerf bat, and we all would rather that nerf bat hit the problem at it's source, TR and the ammo traits, rather than the core skills that are not overperforming on any of the other warrior specs.

Ironically, a large part of what's made bladesworn meta was buffs to shouts. Theoretically, healbreaker has also been buffed, it's just being overshadowed by shoutsworn because shoutsworn can renew its shouts in a pinch.

Which is probably an insight as to what will happen if the proposed change was made. Healbreaker will rise to take shoutsworn's place.

Meanwhile, my suspicion is that unless a replacement combo comes up which is at a similar level of OP, bladesworn would disappear from competitive altogether. As has been discussed in other threads, bladesworn's mechanic is really not suited for competitive. It needs to be strong somewhere else to compensate, and to have some mechanism for sustaining while channeling so that it's less likely to be an instant death sentence. YMMV on whether this is a bad thing or not, but it is a likely consequence.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Ironically, a large part of what's made bladesworn meta was buffs to shouts. Theoretically, healbreaker has also been buffed, it's just being overshadowed by shoutsworn because shoutsworn can renew its shouts in a pinch.

Which is probably an insight as to what will happen if the proposed change was made. Healbreaker will rise to take shoutsworn's place.

Meanwhile, my suspicion is that unless a replacement combo comes up which is at a similar level of OP, bladesworn would disappear from competitive altogether. As has been discussed in other threads, bladesworn's mechanic is really not suited for competitive. It needs to be strong somewhere else to compensate, and to have some mechanism for sustaining while channeling so that it's less likely to be an instant death sentence. YMMV on whether this is a bad thing or not, but it is a likely consequence.

Healbreaker was a last ditch effort to maintain a viable build for ranked conquest after the slew of nerfs decimated warrior build options.

Healbreaker could become a truly viable build on it's own with some AoE boon application built into Spellbreaker.

Even when the sustain on BSW is nerfed, because of UD's blind immunity, block immunity, and stun+damage BSW will still have a place. Indeed I do think that you'll see people running DSM + DS to use back to back damaging stuns, you just don't see it now because Shoutsworn carries too hard to not use.

[Delta.1526]

19 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Yup, and what particular type of Utility skills use ammo? Shouts. And what do those Shouts do for Bladesworn in the current meta? Help give them exceptionally strong self sustain.

The intention to make that entire column synergize with ammo skills with the gunblade kit out is clear, its just that...it sort of exacerbated, or I'd argue created, a bit of a sustain bloat due to how Shouts function.

Them changing how the Elite works, as well as making that column work with (as @Lan Deathrider.5910 said) Explosion skills instead would be a way of helping to reign in the Shoutsworn builds bloated sustain while not impacting sustain so much on Core, Berserker, or Spellbreaker builds because the absolute last thing that we want is for ANet to nerf those Specializations even more just to tone down Shoutsworn when they are already in a not too particularly great state.

Yeah, I'm aware Shouts are ammo skills. I've been memeing on a First Aidsworn in PvE since EoD launched because Lush Forest and Tactical Reload meant Bladesworn was the only elite spec that at all fed into a Heal Warrior build. It wasn't good, but it was the best it possibly could be. Then the banner changes happened...and uh, well, it got way, way worse...but then a couple more patches happened and it became legitimately viable as a Heal Quick option. It's nowhere near the best in slot, but it works and has a niche as a highly reactive healer in a wide range. Power Bladesworn has also recently entered the PvE meta as the best potential Power damage when played optimally; it's not problematic for diversity in DPS picks at all because the rotation is demanding and it's far less stressful if you just accept the 3k DPS loss of  playing Power Mech and slam your palm on your keyboard. 

By 'current meta', I assume you're talking about PvP, and I agree that Healsworn is problematic there. It jams 3 heals on the bar and takes Runes of the Soldier for the condi cleanse, then runs all the incidental healing it can, resulting in an annoyingly resilient dork on point with up to 9 heal packets and up to 3 stunbreaks...but it can also murder you with Dragon Slash. The thing is, this build is currently boosted by a few bugs; DS Boost does weird things to the Dragon Trigger cooldown, and all 3 slashes have Daring Dragon's reset on Dragonscale Defenses, meaning everyone just runs the one that adds a 2.5s stun and ignores blinds and blocks as counterplay options. 

Talents working with Explosions rather than Ammo, and Tactical Reload boosts all CDs rather than giving ammo charges, would absolutely not improve build diversity in PvP. Explosions are mostly baked into the Bladesworn kit -- this change would take a concept that has interesting synergy with Warrior's weapons and utilities, and replace it with a parasitic mechanic that has nothing to do with the rest of Warrior unless they're on Longbow for some reason. Changing Tactical Reload from an ammunition charge to a generic cooldown reduction on your skills would be even worse, you'd run the same good stuff other warriors do, except because of your generic 'get your skills back' button you'd run it better. Congratulations, you've made the Warrior version of Chronomancer. 

Not only would it most likely kill build diversity for warrior in PvP by making Bladesworn the most reliable at having the skills it needs at any point, it'd blow up the weirdly healthy place Bladesworn is at in PvE. Quick Shoutsworn loses its ability to consistently panic heal in a pinch, benefits less from Lush Forest, and in exchange gets to overcap Quickness with the halved Banner CD. DPS Bladesworn doesn't really need Tactical Reload for bringing an ammo skill off cooldown and is already throwing out Explosions so there's very little downside, and the cooldown reduction on Dragonspike Mine would give it more Dragon Trigger resets -- so this would likely just be a straight up buff to what is already one of the highest benchmarks.

IMO, if we're aiming the nerf gun at PvP Bladesworn, the first step is to fix the stuff that's literally bugged so it Dragon Slashes less and doesn't always have the Stability. Step 2, look at Unyielding Dragon and change the PvP version to allow more counterplay. If needed, adjust the PvP build more; nerf the heal boost of River's Flow, the sustain of Unshakeable Mountain and tweak Tactical Reload's to give a fixed reduction to ammo skills. As an absolute last resort, give Rune of the Soldier a mild ICD that would make them choose between burst heal or heavy duty condi cleanse (or force them to burn Shake It Off). The build is a problem in PvP, so nerf it there. Balancing the flavor of the month PvP spec by removing any interesting synergy with the core class is a hilariously bad take.

EDIT: Oh, and changing TR to only work on explosion skills is the worst take of them all. Oh boy, I'm so glad there's an elite skill that'll let me cheat the cooldown of literally just Dragonspike Mine and some of my mediocre Gunblade skills...

Edited September 2, 2022 by Delta.1526

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

For the record, the best possible solution is return weapon swap and put Gunsaber in the elite slot instead of Tactical Reload and have it function like a proper kit. The whole reloading of any skill of any sort outside of a profession mechanic is bad design.

Still, as Eles and Engis have complained about since Especs were rolled out, don't nerf core for the sins of the elites, nerf the elite properly.