Mesmer has never been this bad in the history of the game (PvP)

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

I have played Mesmer in PvP since 2012 and trust me, Mesmer has never been this bad in PvP

Edited September 6, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Ashen.2907]

Care to expand upon that statement?

[Mell.4873]

Not really, I don't know why but I guess the general nerfing of many dominating professions allowed room for Mesmer to have its place in the current Meta.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

Id argue it was in a worse place after the Feb update. Mirage had its dodge removed, Chronomancer couldn’t even self shatter. 
 

The problem right now is that Virtuoso seems like a super balanced class where Bladesworn, Catalyst, and Specter all have something stupidly obnoxious and broken about them. Pretty amazing they even exist in their current state. The idea of checks and balances has been thrown out the window with them. 

[Yoci.2481]

And everything is worse in WvW because of the PvE stats and fewer adjusted skills.

[phokus.8934]

OP says Mesmer is bad in pvp, people post about pve and wvw.  About par for this subforum.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

8 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Id argue it was in a worse place after the Feb update. Mirage had its dodge removed, Chronomancer couldn’t even self shatter. 
 

The problem right now is that Virtuoso seems like a super balanced class where Bladesworn, Catalyst, and Specter all have something stupidly obnoxious and broken about them. Pretty amazing they even exist in their current state. The idea of checks and balances has been thrown out the window with them. 

 Chrono was worse off but Mirage was better than it is now due to how powercrept EoD specs are.

Edited September 7, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

5 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

 Chrono was worse off but Mirage was better than it is now due to how powercrept EoD specs are.

We had some pretty broken specs before EOD that had to be toned down. Symbol guard, burn DH, trapper DH, nade Holo, prot Holo, Renegade, Herald, Scourge, Minionmancer, even thief was toned down. There was some pretty broken stuff. 

The game state is pretty goofy currently, can’t deny that. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Ronald McDonald.8165

[viquing.8254]

Before feb update, mesmer was eaten alive by one shot spec, during that time I link a vid of sind gutting 98%of my  HP in one opening teleport combo (in 0.5 sec.) and mesmer wasn't the best at all to do that. So I totally disagree that it was better before, looking at how much powercreep were on other classes. It feel like I was playing some FPS with headshot every corner.

During vanilla, mesmer wasn't much represented because the most efficients build to PvP relied too much on kitting and/or stealth which didn't work on point capture. The only thing who worked was very high teamplay around portal which had very poor representation.

Chronomancer with old signet of illusion gives a fresh wave because our main ressource no longer get one shotted and hit more often thanks to superspeed when shatter.

Now that signet of illusion HP increase is done, same for traits, we came back with instant died illusions, which limit highly gameplay options.

They nerfed duelling ability over the years while buffing other duelling ability (look at know, everyone and his grandma teleport everywhere for exemple.). So the pro/cons from classes is supposed to switch to pro/cons from builds. It's just that it worked more for most teamfight classes who get better in small scale but barely for small scale classes who aren't better in teamfight (WvW bus representation who never(barely) change over years is a good example of that.).

So you end with a gutted duelling classe who is average between othe duelling classes, bad in teamfight or support, with high setup compared to just clic to do something from many classes. There are many mesmers skills who are only effective in a 3 to 4 chain combos.

Virtuoso wasn't designed at all to PvP, instead of listening the beta feedback they just overbuff few sustain skills after release to compensate the core design, trying make it work. Which isn't healthy IMO. Because they never want to take in consideration feedback from PvP players we will probably end up with random buff leading to boring gameplay and making other whine.

 

So yeah mesmer isn't at a good state but It's not new .

The only novelty is that back in time, when it wasn't well represented in high level, it farmed plebs on low rank because of how they were lost on illusions, generating many whine on the forum. Now even on low ranks it suffer.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by viquing.8254

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

41 minutes ago, viquing.8254 said:

Before feb update, mesmer was eaten alive by one shot spec, during that time I link a vid of sind gutting 98%of my  HP in one opening teleport combo (in 0.5 sec.) and mesmer wasn't the best at all to do that. So I totally disagree that it was better before, looking at how much powercreep were on other classes. It feel like I was playing some FPS with headshot every corner.

During vanilla, mesmer wasn't much represented because the most efficients build to PvP relied too much on kitting and/or stealth which didn't work on point capture. The only thing who worked was very high teamplay around portal which had very poor representation.

Chronomancer with old signet of illusion gives a fresh wave because our main ressource no longer get one shotted and hit more often thanks to superspeed when shatter.

Now that signet of illusion HP increase is done, same for traits, we came back with instant died illusions, which limit highly gameplay options.

They nerfed duelling ability over the years while buffing other duelling ability (look at know, everyone and his grandma teleport everywhere for exemple.). So the pro/cons from classes is supposed to switch to pro/cons from builds. It's just that it worked more for most teamfight classes who get better in small scale but barely for small scale classes who aren't better in teamfight (WvW bus representation who never(barely) change over years is a good example of that.).

So you end with a gutted duelling classe who is average between othe duelling classes, bad in teamfight or support, with high setup compared to just clic to do something from many classes. There are many mesmers skills who are only effective in a 3 to 4 chain combos.

Virtuoso wasn't designed at all to PvP, instead of listening the beta feedback they just overbuff few sustain skills after release to compensate the core design, trying make it work. Which isn't healthy IMO. Because they never want to take in consideration feedback from PvP players we will probably end up with random buff leading to boring gameplay and making other whine.

 

So yeah mesmer isn't at a good state but It's not new .

The only novelty is that back in time, when it wasn't well represented in high level, it farmed plebs on low rank because of how they were lost on illusions, generating many whine on the forum. Now even on low ranks it suffer.

 

 

 

 

Haven't read all of this yet but before feb patch zeromis won many monthlies with power mirage, then he instantly stopped playing it in competitive, there is a reason for that

[Mell.4873]

9 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

OP says Mesmer is bad in pvp, people post about pve and wvw.  About par for this subforum.

PvE?????....

WvW is PvP, its one of the two game modes for it.

About on par for this subforum -_-

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

PvE?????....

WvW is PvP, its one of the two game modes for it.

About on par for this subforum -_-

OP literally states pvp but yet you go on about other nonsense.  And wvw is absolutely not pvp.

[Mell.4873]

6 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

OP literally states pvp but yet you go on about other nonsense.  And wvw is absolutely not pvp.

??? What is it then if not Player vs Player.

I mean if that is the case then this game doesn't have any PvP content since Conquest isn't played at all by any of the hardcore PvP player base. Most if not all people play WvW simply down the fact that there is only one US player in Legendary bracket (1800+) for Conquest.

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

25 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

??? What is it then if not Player vs Player.

I mean if that is the case then this game doesn't have any PvP content since Conquest isn't played at all by any of the hardcore PvP player base. Most if not all people play WvW simply down the fact that there is only one US player in Legendary bracket (1800+) for Conquest.

Generally when people are talking about PvP they are referring to sPvP and not WvW. 
 

Most the hardcore PvP players stick to conquest. WvW is more of its own beast with its own playerbase.

[Mell.4873]

21 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Generally when people are talking about PvP they are referring to sPvP and not WvW. 
 

Most the hardcore PvP players stick to conquest. WvW is more of its own beast with its own playerbase.

You are correct in both cases, sPvP more or less has had the bottom fall out from under it (lack of new players)

Most people on the forums play WvW and not sPvP since its the vastly more popular game mode so they will have more experience with builds there. They have far more similarities than differences, like Roaming in WvW and sPvP are pretty much the same.

The main difference between the two is Celestial stats are exclusive to WvW.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

58 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

You are correct in both cases, sPvP more or less has had the bottom fall out from under it (lack of new players)

Most people on the forums play WvW and not sPvP since its the vastly more popular game mode so they will have more experience with builds there. They have far more similarities than differences, like Roaming in WvW and sPvP are pretty much the same.

The main difference between the two is Celestial stats are exclusive to WvW.

Well roaming in WvW and PvP is the same term but with different meanings for each game mode. Because of that your interactions with classes are going to be different. 
 

A roamer in WvW is someone who basically ignores the objectives of WvW and is looking for a fight, either 1v1 or in a small group. Ideally a WvW roamer has high sustain and solid damage output.  You can hold your own 1v1 and even 1v2. For example a chaos staff mirage in WvW is a roaming build in WvW sense. It has solid sustain and solid damage output. 
 

On the flip side a roamer in the sPvP sense is someone with high mobility, high burst, and relatively low sustain. Their job as a roamer is to examine the map, find +1’s, decap nodes, and eliminate enemies you match well into as fast as possible. In this instance a chaos staff mirage is a poor roamer and more of a side-noder. Where a roamer build would be your standard powerblock Mirage. You’re not usually looking for 1v1s as a roamer in sPvP.

 

In WvW you also have all the quad stat armor sets (i.e. trailblazers) and food which does influence match ups. 
 

Another thing with sPvP is you are in more control of your match ups. You know exactly what classes you’re playing against and you have mini map and kill feed to help you decide which match ups to take and where you want to go. 
 

There is definitely enough differences between the game modes to warrant different discussions between them.
 

 

[otto.5684]

Ya, mesmer is pretty bad currently in spvp. At least the worst it has been since 2015. 

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

There is definitely enough differences between the game modes to warrant different discussions between them.

I guess, well either way I did state WvW even if it didn't answer the question (if that is what the author meant by PvP).

47 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

Ya, mesmer is pretty bad currently in spvp. At least the worst it has been since 2015. 

True but is has been a little better since earlier this year so depends on the time scale.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Yoci.2481]

12 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Well roaming in WvW and PvP is the same term but with different meanings for each game mode. Because of that your interactions with classes are going to be different. 
 

A roamer in WvW is someone who basically ignores the objectives of WvW and is looking for a fight, either 1v1 or in a small group. Ideally a WvW roamer has high sustain and solid damage output.  You can hold your own 1v1 and even 1v2. For example a chaos staff mirage in WvW is a roaming build in WvW sense. It has solid sustain and solid damage output. 
 

On the flip side a roamer in the sPvP sense is someone with high mobility, high burst, and relatively low sustain. Their job as a roamer is to examine the map, find +1’s, decap nodes, and eliminate enemies you match well into as fast as possible. In this instance a chaos staff mirage is a poor roamer and more of a side-noder. Where a roamer build would be your standard powerblock Mirage. You’re not usually looking for 1v1s as a roamer in sPvP.

 

In WvW you also have all the quad stat armor sets (i.e. trailblazers) and food which does influence match ups. 
 

Another thing with sPvP is you are in more control of your match ups. You know exactly what classes you’re playing against and you have mini map and kill feed to help you decide which match ups to take and where you want to go. 
 

There is definitely enough differences between the game modes to warrant different discussions between them.
 

 

I think you are mixing up roaming and duelling. Roamers care very much about objectives, be it flipping camps and guards, killing dolyaks, tapping enemy keeps and hunting other players to stop them from achieving their objective. Having a nice 1v1 is a plus but it's a mean to an end. Mobility and ability to disengage is very important to a proper roamer.

[Moradorin.6217]

12 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Well roaming in WvW and PvP is the same term but with different meanings for each game mode. Because of that your interactions with classes are going to be different. 
 

A roamer in WvW is someone who basically ignores the objectives of WvW and is looking for a fight, either 1v1 or in a small group. Ideally a WvW roamer has high sustain and solid damage output.  You can hold your own 1v1 and even 1v2. For example a chaos staff mirage in WvW is a roaming build in WvW sense. It has solid sustain and solid damage output. 
 

On the flip side a roamer in the sPvP sense is someone with high mobility, high burst, and relatively low sustain. Their job as a roamer is to examine the map, find +1’s, decap nodes, and eliminate enemies you match well into as fast as possible. In this instance a chaos staff mirage is a poor roamer and more of a side-noder. Where a roamer build would be your standard powerblock Mirage. You’re not usually looking for 1v1s as a roamer in sPvP.

 

In WvW you also have all the quad stat armor sets (i.e. trailblazers) and food which does influence match ups. 
 

Another thing with sPvP is you are in more control of your match ups. You know exactly what classes you’re playing against and you have mini map and kill feed to help you decide which match ups to take and where you want to go. 
 

There is definitely enough differences between the game modes to warrant different discussions between them.
 

 

That is part of what a WvW roamer is, but it seems to miss stuff. Your PvP description of roaming/side node, +1 sounds good. Roaming in WvW the purpose is to take objectives maybe solo, maybe with a partner or maybe even with a havoc (slightly larger group). But lets just keep it so solo/duo roaming. The objective is still to cap objectives. Those people who sit around near the bridges in the borderland wanting to duel are not roamers. Those people just sit and duel other people. Its not roaming its another thing much closer to sPvP but without objectives. That said, those people arent roamers. Roaming means you are roaming around the map taking or retaking objectives and killing other teams players. However, its not just running around looking for 1v1, 1vn, those fights are a big part, but in pvp you mention nodes and some point to the playing. I notice in wvw you describe it as people just running around with no purpose other than killing other players. Both modes can be played that way, both modes its equally discouraged to ignore objectives. Just trying to give WvW players the credit they are due.

[Moradorin.6217]

4 minutes ago, Yoci.2481 said:

I think you are mixing up roaming and duelling. Roamers care very much about objectives, be it flipping camps and guards, killing dolyaks, tapping enemy keeps and hunting other players to stop them from achieving their objective. Having a nice 1v1 is a plus but it's a mean to an end. Mobility and ability to disengage is very important to a proper roamer.

exactly, ty

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

12 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Ya, mesmer is pretty bad currently in spvp. At least the worst it has been since 2015. 

It was borderline meta in 2015 and before so it is far worse now

Edited September 8, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

4 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

That is part of what a WvW roamer is, but it seems to miss stuff. Your PvP description of roaming/side node, +1 sounds good. Roaming in WvW the purpose is to take objectives maybe solo, maybe with a partner or maybe even with a havoc (slightly larger group). But lets just keep it so solo/duo roaming. The objective is still to cap objectives. Those people who sit around near the bridges in the borderland wanting to duel are not roamers. Those people just sit and duel other people. Its not roaming its another thing much closer to sPvP but without objectives. That said, those people arent roamers. Roaming means you are roaming around the map taking or retaking objectives and killing other teams players. However, its not just running around looking for 1v1, 1vn, those fights are a big part, but in pvp you mention nodes and some point to the playing. I notice in wvw you describe it as people just running around with no purpose other than killing other players. Both modes can be played that way, both modes its equally discouraged to ignore objectives. Just trying to give WvW players the credit they are due.

It’s literally irrelevant to the point I’m making. You can do whatever you want as a roamer in WvW. You can do objectives or not, it’s irrelevant. The point is about the differences in interactions with players you have with your builds between PvP and WvW. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Ronald McDonald.8165

[Moradorin.6217]

5 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

It’s literally irrelevant to the point I’m making. You can do whatever you want as a roamer in WvW. You can do objectives or not, it’s irrelevant. The point is about the differences in interactions with players you have with your builds between PvP and WvW. 

Ok, its just that the difference in how you describe pvp vs wvw implies a bias against WvW in general.

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

25 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Ok, its just that the difference in how you describe pvp vs wvw implies a bias against WvW in general.

 No bias between one or the other with my responses. I can honestly say though I have roamed with dozens of other players and our goal has never been to do objectives. We do objectives to keep our pips going and they are something to do as we look for players.  We do them because they exist, not as our goal. The enjoyment and the entertainment of roaming isn’t killing a group of NPCs, it’s beating the crap out of other players.

 

I won’t lie though, I 100% have a preference towards PvP. There is much more thought and strategy that goes into playing a match of conquest than there is with roaming in WvW. The quality of your fights are usually better in PvP. 9 out of 10 players in WvW are terrible at actually fighting other players. And there are way many more options for broken builds in WvW. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Ronald McDonald.8165