Fast hands, base trait

[Shinja.3451]

Explain a problem that seems to be solved in a certain way and in the end you screw something up or bog it down even more, it's really complicated, first because it generates confusion, not all people understand it and more considering that although its "solution" seems obvious, ends up creating more problems and things that in the end are not possible to fix, having said that.

Why fast hands should never be a base trait, first, the trait reduces the cooldown on weapon swapping by 50%, when the standard in the game is 20%, namely, you go from 10s to 5s, that shows that it is an over-adjusted trait, as many that the warrior has, which many of these do not even serve for specific reasons.

If the time for all professions in the change of weapons is 10s, it is for something and that it is something standard and adjusts margins in the flow of combat, so why does it seem like the warrior needs only half the time coming from an over-tuned trait, it's because of how their weapons are made and how bad they are, even having such specific roles more than playing styles and if we go further we find that the "mechanics" of the warrior are absurdly bad, to the point that it seems more of a handicap than anything else, since if you want to have damage, survival you will have to look for it by traits, when other professions practically have it as a base only with their traits, yes anet I try to more or less adjust this with things in tactics, healing in other places and other things, i end up creating another problem.

Then we have the problem directly and it is given in the following form that anyone can try, the weapons in the warrior feel incomplete, even carrying axe/axe you will have to switch to greatsword to continue damage and use burst ability, if you go with mace/mace you will run into how incoherent things become, you will have CC yes, but the style of play is the same and you will end up changing weapons either by movement, defense or even damage and so with all the weapons, the warrior does not gain versatility with weapon changes or advantages with adrenaline, has all of this so boxed in that they only work in certain circumstances and you'll be forced to constantly switch weapons in combat, creating an absurd problem and that is that all the builds of the warrior feel the same without different styles of play.

What could be done is just reduce CDs, give more options to each weapon on the warrior, more synergies between traits and their weapons (absurd thing is that almost no trait has interaction with weapons, when this is the weapons master), more interactions with adrenaline and that this is really checked, since at one point anet thought she would fix the problem with burst abilities by lowering their cd from 10s to 8s and changing one thing or another instead of directly improving the interaction with it and getting rid of the adrenaline requirement and that this only enhances the warrior and even more the burst ability as was the initial objective.

traducir esto dueleeee ayudaaa D:

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

 Most professions that rely far less on their weapons already have ways to escape weapon swap cooldown .

Engies have kits. Eles attunements. Necros shroud & shroud skills. Mesmers have cooldown resets for various areas of their kits.
Thieves have full weapon swap cd, but no cd on weapon skills themselves and powerful stealth attacks that cost no initiative.
Revenants have two sets of swappable utility bars and good auto attacks. Rangers have a lot of their power put in utilities (traps, spirits) and profession mechanics (pets that are independent from ranger's own build. Glass ranger + tank bear for example).

Warriors have none of the above. Their power budget is in weapons, and even their profession mechanic is welded onto weapons as well. Not to mention that Discipline is a good traitline overall, not just for fast hands, yet Discipline warriors are simply playable, not dominating in every game aspect. Letting Fast Hands be baseline will not make warriors suddenly go brrrr and obliterate every game mode.
 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Just make the base Weaponswap on Warrior 7 seconds and let Fast Hands reduce that to 5 seconds.

Thats way, we boost non Disc builds a bit while making Disc still relevant.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Just make the base Weaponswap on Warrior 7 seconds and let Fast Hands reduce that to 5 seconds.

Thats way, we boost non Disc builds a bit while making Disc still relevant.

 

Mai Trin: "No more half measures!"

5s baseline weapon swap for warrior.

The Glorious and Illustrious Joko above is correct. Too much of warrior's power budget is locked into weapon skills. The alternative would be to just give warrior weapon MUCH lower CDs (as in no CD on a bar is more than 10s), and give each MH and 2H a fast movement skill on the weapon bar itself. 5s weapon swap would be easier are more balanced than that though.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Mai Trin: "No more half measures!"

5s baseline weapon swap for warrior.

The Glorious and Illustrious Joko above is correct. Too much of warrior's power budget is locked into weapon skills. The alternative would be to just give warrior weapon MUCH lower CDs (as in no CD on a bar is more than 10s), and give each MH and 2H a fast movement skill on the weapon bar itself. 5s weapon swap would be easier are more balanced than that though.

Ok. Some WILD idea.

New Fast Hand:

Instead of reducing the Weaponswap cooldown by 5 seconds, now the Weaponswap cooldown resets after successfully hitting a target with a burstskill.

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Ok. Some WILD idea.

New Fast Hand:

Instead of reducing the Weaponswap cooldown by 5 seconds, now the Weaponswap cooldown resets after successfully hitting a target with a burstskill.

 

 

 

Alright so that is wild, but I'm going to say no due to Axe/- -/Axe Berserker.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Ok. Some WILD idea.

New Fast Hand:

Instead of reducing the Weaponswap cooldown by 5 seconds, now the Weaponswap cooldown resets after successfully hitting a target with a burstskill.

 

 

 

OK now THAT concept is something I can get behind because baselining things is a terrible way to fix whatever problems it's trying to solve. It needs some work though ... it needs a CD. 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[DanAlcedo.3281]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK now THAT concept is something I can get behind because baselining things is a terrible way to fix whatever problems it's trying to solve. It needs some work though ... it needs a CD. 

 

How about...... 5 seconds.   Anet Style.

[Vancho.8750]

3 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

How about...... 5 seconds.   Anet Style.

At this point you are just jumping through more hoops to get the same thing but way more complicated. Could be a ne Elite spec mechanic for some profession. I think they are already using it for BS with the whole DT switches to gunsaber thing.
@Obtena.7952I still think Warrior needs stuff baseline, It has burst skills but it doesn't really cut it anymore cause it all ends up with on burst effect triggers, people will default to Fast hands since well it is the simplest solution, practical and simple the whole shtick of Warrior. The other solution is reworking weapons traitlines and buffing them to the point that Discipline is not mandatory, which Anet proved that can be done with BS(even though it is still clunky but it works), the issue here is dev time. Another is delete fast hands but that quite frankly just deletes warrior leaving it with no special mechanics at all, which also returns us to the previous point of Reworking the whole thing to make it do stuff.

I kind of hope the October patch will give some leeway for buildcraft different from Discipline/x /x, I kind of doubt it since warrior doesn't really have multitool weapons to sit around for 10 seconds, funny thing is that the one set that can camp on is Axe/Axe which still needs discipline.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

7 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

At this point you are just jumping through more hoops to get the same thing but way more complicated. Could be a ne Elite spec mechanic for some profession. I think they are already using it for BS with the whole DT switches to gunsaber thing.
@Obtena.7952I still think Warrior needs stuff baseline, It has burst skills but it doesn't really cut it anymore cause it all ends up with on burst effect triggers, people will default to Fast hands since well it is the simplest solution, practical and simple the whole shtick of Warrior. The other solution is reworking weapons traitlines and buffing them to the point that Discipline is not mandatory, which Anet proved that can be done with BS(even though it is still clunky but it works), the issue here is dev time. Another is delete fast hands but that quite frankly just deletes warrior leaving it with no special mechanics at all, which also returns us to the previous point of Reworking the whole thing to make it do stuff.

I kind of hope the October patch will give some leeway for buildcraft different from Discipline/x /x, I kind of doubt it since warrior doesn't really have multitool weapons to sit around for 10 seconds, funny thing is that the one set that can camp on is Axe/Axe which still needs discipline.

I wasnt serious btw. Im sorry that i forgot the /s

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

At this point you are just jumping through more hoops to get the same thing but way more complicated. Could be a ne Elite spec mechanic for some profession. I think they are already using it for BS with the whole DT switches to gunsaber thing.
@Obtena.7952I still think Warrior needs stuff baseline, It has burst skills but it doesn't really cut it anymore cause it all ends up with on burst effect triggers, people will default to Fast hands since well it is the simplest solution, practical and simple the whole shtick of Warrior. The other solution is reworking weapons traitlines and buffing them to the point that Discipline is not mandatory, which Anet proved that can be done with BS(even though it is still clunky but it works), the issue here is dev time. Another is delete fast hands but that quite frankly just deletes warrior leaving it with no special mechanics at all, which also returns us to the previous point of Reworking the whole thing to make it do stuff.

I kind of hope the October patch will give some leeway for buildcraft different from Discipline/x /x, I kind of doubt it since warrior doesn't really have multitool weapons to sit around for 10 seconds, funny thing is that the one set that can camp on is Axe/Axe which still needs discipline.

OK but FH baseline doesn't fix the lackluster mechanic warrior has. It just pretends that faster weapon swaps is a substitute for a more immersive and meaningful mechanic. Making things baseline is just not a problem solver here. It's a short-term, feel-good dose. Burst mechanic is still going to feel like does now.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK but FH baseline doesn't fix the lackluster mechanic warrior has. It just pretends that faster weapon swaps is a substitute for a more immersive and meaningful mechanic. Making things baseline is just not a problem solver here. It's a short-term, feel-good dose. Burst mechanic is still going to feel like does now.

The more immersive stuff is for Elites, core is for general functionality. Warrior does not need intricate fancy mechanics on core, just simple and effective. Discipline has been in almost all builds for warrior, not because it is the strongest but because it has QoL that makes warrior work and the weapons were balanced around the idea that you would pick it, so there isn't any standalones weapon. 
Core should not change dramatically how the profession works, that is for the elite specs. Currently FS just creates a bottleneck to builds. There is no reason to overdesign the core traitlines simpler is better, this way elite spec can get little bit more complex without worry that some trait somewhere adds another layer of balancing issues like if is not used it feels bad and if it used it is strong so you have nerf it down but it ends up making the skills worse if you don't run it and so on.
Also the feel good, short term good dose baselines here and there have made the game better and the feeling has been sticking around for far longer then the GRAND redesigns, the clone generation on mesmer, the symbols on guardian, the life force and shroud tweaks on necro just make the professions work. The baselines don't change much how it plays out and that is fine, it just opens up the traitlines for use, for example Arms can't be used with in PVP condi builds on elite specs but if you have 5 second swap it can take the slot of discipline.      

[Shinja.3451]

There's a debate here XD

Yes, many think that fast hands will solve the problems that the warrior has with the flow of combat, but we leave several things aside.

 

First, it is an over-adjusted trait, that there is no doubt about that.

 

Second you get several more buffs from the same discipline traits where I can bet most take "Brawler's Recovery" you get adrenaline and power and that's seals aside they seem like small buffs but really noticeable and they make a pretty big difference.

 

Third, that discipline is so used does not mean that it is really necessary, since before there were many builds that did not use it and currently there are one or another, but if it is true that this is the one that gives the warrior the most improvements to use his melee weapons and maintain the flow of combat, something that is not good at all, because it locks you into always using that to maintain a certain flow.

 

And fourth, which is related to the third, it is this one that prevents the warrior from really seeing improvements in his weapons and their versatility, since anet will always take that trait into account, no matter how much he tries to innovate the warrior, he will not be able to ignore the fact that he changes weapons to continue applying pressure, which leads to nerfing things, do you really think anet won't nerf multiple things if the warrior has that base trait?, as soon as that trait is base, the warrior will always have the same style of play, not only will it stall him, it will cause multiple nerfs, we will lose the possibility of obtaining better and more interesting weapons (something that we are already losing), really adrenaline improvements as a mechanic, the same interaction of traits with weapons and we can really customize the builds to our style of play, because anet will always take as an excuse that you can change weapons to adjust to combat, but if you don't have the weapon that combat needs?, there is where the problem is and that the warrior's weapons are so specific that they vary by themselves do not fulfill their objective properly, even if they have their disadvantages.

 

That said, on the one hand, while other professions seem to have better combat flow, this is not entirely true, all professions have their limitations and change something for something, this is where you really see that the adrenaline and the ability to burst fail with respect to the other professions and it is that we really have a stuck skill to a certain extent and more adrenaline as an impediment than an advantage as it should be and, on the other hand, anet must put fast hands aside, ignore that it exists to really see how limited the warrior's weapons and their "mechanics" are, so that not only fast hands really fulfill their function as the trait that it is, but also not be an impediment to the balance of the warrior, and I don't mean to nerf fast hands, just ignore that it exists, because other than that anet thinks that the warrior is going to magically break, at this point if balanced correctly the warrior weapon swap will look more like an option and not a necessity like it currently does.

 

Regarding the burst ability, how many here would open a poll so that it can be used without adrenaline, and that adrenaline only powers it.

 

posiblemente se tradujo mal porque es demaciado srry  );