Thief megathread: Oct 4th patch discussion

[Bladezephyr.5714]

On 10/9/2022 at 11:48 PM, Kstyle.5829 said:

I'll make this simple for you.  Lets say you take a group of the best classes in the game right now and have them played by noobs who have had this game for 1 month.  Now take the objectively WORST classes in the game.  Worst spec of worst class, and let them be played by the top 10 players in the whole game.  Do you think they wont be able to complete literally every single part of PVE content?  They easily will, and they will be bored doing it

This is a totally garbage argument.  Can the best players bring bad builds and complete the content?  Using the best builds available for those worst classes, sure.  But... will they?  And by definition, the vast majority of players can't be the best players.  Most players' skill is a mere fraction of what the best players can achieve... and no matter how long they play that won't change much.  There are a variety of reasons for that, ranging from physical limitations, all the way down to laziness or lack of interest in improving, and everything in between.  But an MMO doesn't get to call itself that unless it is actually Massively Multi-player, which means it can not cater to only the best players--it needs to be accessible to average players, or else it won't have the numbers it needs to survive.

The top-10 players, and noobs alike all know one thing:  If one spec provides more utility and is easier / more satisfying to play than another, that's the build you'll pick, nearly all of the time.  All of the thief specs are played substantially less than the top 5 specs, because of that.  These changes do not literally make specter unplayable (and I hate when people say that, TBH), but what they do is make it effectively unplayable by dropping its utility and satisfaction level way down, making the choice to play it kind of a dumb one.  If you were playing DPS or hybrid specter in PvE before this patch, odds are pretty good you've dropped it to go back to FB or HAM or druid because they're just plain better.  A lot.  For some of those builds/roles, the only reason to keep playing specter is out of love... but eventually almost everyone realizes when they're in a bad relationship, and leaves it. 😔

[Bladezephyr.5714]

6 minutes ago, Bladezephyr.5714 said:

 But an MMO doesn't get to call itself that unless it is actually Massively Multi-player, which means it can not cater to only the best players--it needs to be accessible to average players, or else it won't have the numbers it needs to survive.

And by the way, the only real, viable solution to this problem is more difficulty levels / better scaling.  HTCM proves that the game can be difficult enough to pose a challenge to the best players, but only a small fraction of the player base will ever complete it.  There really needs to be at least two additional difficulty levels:  One to give above average (but not top tier) players a challenge, and another to give everyone else a challenge.  I dare say there should really be at least four difficulty levels total, but I know that's a total pipe dream...

[Gwynnion.7364]

1 hour ago, Bladezephyr.5714 said:

If one spec provides more utility and is easier / more satisfying to play than another, that's the build you'll pick, nearly all of the time.  All of the thief specs are played substantially less than the top 5 specs, because of that.  These changes do not literally make specter unplayable (and I hate when people say that, TBH), but what they do is make it effectively unplayable by dropping its utility and satisfaction level way down, making the choice to play it kind of a dumb one.  If you were playing DPS or hybrid specter in PvE before this patch, odds are pretty good you've dropped it to go back to FB or HAM or druid because they're just plain better.  A lot.  For some of those builds/roles, the only reason to keep playing specter is out of love... but eventually almost everyone realizes when they're in a bad relationship, and leaves it. 😔

Specter was one of the few elites that appealed to me in EoD so yeah, I keep playing it because I like its style.  And yeah, you can still make it work as a condi DPS.  But obviously, it's not competitive at this point so most people aren't going to bother, and it doesn't offer enough to justify bringing it as a group support either, and that problem has plagued thief and other professions like elementalist for years. 

All those people playing Mechanist weren't doing so because it was inherently tremendous fun -- I mean, I'm sure some thought so; I find it boring, personally -- but because it was easy and effective at clearing content, even if it wasn't objectively The Best.  And that's why people will continue playing Mechanist even after the recent, mild nerfs, whereas most people who played Specter will stop and go elsewhere.

That's all "balance" is about in this game for everyone except the top 10% of players: whether you feel punished or rewarded for playing a specific class.  And when the devs don't fix the clunky, unfun ones, or worse, nerf something people were enjoying, it only exacerbates the problem of there being a handful of "omnipotent super-classes" everyone is expected to play in group content.  Everything else is a noob trap.  And that sucks.

Since the Steam launch, there's been an influx of new players who gravitated toward the classes that looked "cool" to play: elementalist, thief, mesmer.  Only to find out they're traps.  Repeatedly, I've seen them be told to give up and play Mechanist, Firebrand, or the profession's one easy spec like Virtuoso because they're just easier, meaning they're more fun, and there's zero expectation the devs are ever going to fix anything else.  That's a horrible situation if you want any kind of class balance or diversity in the game.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Gwynnion.7364

[nopoet.2960]

2 hours ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

That's all "balance" is about in this game for everyone except the top 10% of players: whether you feel punished or rewarded for playing a specific class.  And when the devs don't fix the clunky, unfun ones, or worse, nerf something people were enjoying, it only exacerbates the problem of there being a handful of "omnipotent super-classes" everyone is expected to play in group content.  Everything else is a noob trap.  And that sucks.

 

So one thing that gets me is that none of the theif specs are easy to play well.  We don't have a "mechanist" spec.  Yeah specter was durable but that doesn't help with positioning, initiative management, using combo fields.  It just feels like we are being punished for playing a class that Anet designed and had the poor luck to like.

[Gwynnion.7364]

38 minutes ago, nopoet.2960 said:

So one thing that gets me is that none of the theif specs are easy to play well.  We don't have a "mechanist" spec.  Yeah specter was durable but that doesn't help with positioning, initiative management, using combo fields.

Yeah, exactly.  I don't begrudge Mechanist players (much) but it's irksome when you're having to play piano on elementalist, maintain a state of catlike readiness on thief, or otherwise having to work much, much harder just to perform as well or worse than the average Mechanist, Firebrand, etc.  And I have an engineer with all three elites unlocked!  Mechanist beats Holo and Scrapper, too, most of the time!  So it feels egregious.

I don't play my thieves much because they're a lot harder to play than others and there's always some janky "balance" change to adapt to.  Oh, I don't have Invigorating Precision to fall back on anymore?  Uh.  Okay?  Let me figure that out.  Oh, my Shroud got nerfed?  Ugh.  Okay.  And it wears down your desire to even bother.  I can pop into my Virtuoso, Scourge, Firebrand, or yes, Reaper and have a much easier time.  Specter's survivability was its saving grace as it was admittedly clunky and not very good at its support role.  Now it doesn't even have that, really.

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Gwynnion.7364

[AikijinX.6258]

5 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

So one thing that gets me is that none of the theif specs are easy to play well.  We don't have a "mechanist" spec.  Yeah specter was durable but that doesn't help with positioning, initiative management, using combo fields.  It just feels like we are being punished for playing a class that Anet designed and had the poor luck to like.

Oh how i missed the days of Ambush trap (Where we can summon Thieves to be our allies) The glory days... 

Don't JUDGE ME-  THIS WAS A LONG TIME AGO!! DON'T JUDGE ME, hence the reason it’s unlisted

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by AikijinX.6258

[Doggie.3184]

Hidden Thief was deleted ages ago, is there still a reason to have Siphon cancel auto attack? That was the reason they added it to begin with.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:06 PM, AikijinX.6258 said:

Oh how i missed the days of Ambush trap (Where we can summon Thieves to be our allies) The glory days... 

Don't JUDGE ME-  THIS WAS A LONG TIME AGO!! DON'T JUDGE ME, hence the reason it’s unlisted

 

my friend, you are definitely needed to get in the thief only guild / TEEF forums with Zach...cuz kitten... i wish Wild Bill would come back and even Yishis, imagine the crazy methods and brainstorming we could do with a "broken" class...we got world firsts already all thief thanks to Kirk's recordings.

Kiza made a comeback too so you wont be in nomans land xD 

[cyberzombie.7348]

Although I can see some synergy with the instant reflex change, it appears to be more of a downgrade to my group fighting builds like Doppelsöldner. As it it relied on the auto proc to be more of an alarm to get out AoEs of instant death during zerg fights.

Though I'd say good call giving stability to spectre's well, thieves have been hurting for stability since assassin's equilibrium was removed and daggerstorm changed to an evade.