Mech Should Have Been A Puppeteer Spec

[Batalix.2873]

Okay, this is a long one guys, so pop some popcorn and snuggle up.

 

The biggest problem with Mechanist is that it is effectively two characters in one. There are two health pools, two damage sources, and two sources of support abilities, with the flexibility of coming from two different points on the map, and the problem is that ANet cannot find a justification for severely underpowering either the mech (defeats its whole purpose) or the player (gimps customizable weapons and utilities which are a core fun factor across all especs).

 

No other class has two characters as effectively as this. Mesmer clones do barely any damage unless tactfully ambushed or shattered. Scourge shades and Catalyst spheres can't move and have limited duration. Herald facets and Scrapper utilities don't really have any damage capacity and need to be triggered. Ranger pets do minimal damage and are effectively one extra utility skill on wheels. Mayyybe Untamed approaches this, but it doesn't have nearly the utility and flexibility of Mech and requires actually engaging with the game and your pet to pull off well.

 

The problem, put another way, is that Mech can do *sizeable* damage AND boons, automatically, at range, behind a tanky pet, while doing nothing themselves. And then ON TOP of that, has its own weapons and utilities to play with.

 

I have a strong suspicion (though unconfirmed) that at some point Mech was developed as a mech suit, and that at some point was split off into a pet. Maybe that was to make it feel more distinct from Holosmith, I don't know. But it would possibly explain why the espec is just so bloated and overdeveloped.

 

Anyway, the clear solution to bring Mech back down to parity is to find a way to reconsolidate two "points-of-action" back down to one. There are three ways of doing this, but I will eliminate two outright because they would just be either reversing back to the "mech suit" idea which we will presume was abandoned for a good reason (but could still prove to be a plausible alternative), or removing the robot as a point of action which just guts the core mech fantasy.

 

But the third course of action would be to remove the player as a point of action and have ALL of their agency happen through the robot. Other RPGs and MMOs would call this a "puppeteer" class. All of your damage is expressed through the robot. All of your shields, healing, boons, through the robot. The "skill" involved is positioning...moving your robot where it is needed while also moving your fragile self out of harms way.

 

The funny thing is, that with the removal of kits, the customizable traits, and the signets, Mechanist is already almost there. There is only one potential conflict I see with this proposal, which would be the obviating of weapons on the player character - why equip weapons at all?

 

To which I say, fairly easy fix. Have your player character perform the same attack animations as they would normally do for the equipped weapon, but do no damage. Instead, have the robot mimic the same weapon animation and launch the actual damaging attacks from its own location. In effect, you are remotely operating your mech's attacks with your own weapons.

 

Such a change would accomplish several very important things:

 

1) All damage and support (except signets) now comes from the robot exclusively, making it much easier to balance.

 

2) A lot more player agency is exerted over the robot as far as movement, attacks, and support requiring more deliberate actions instead of passive effects. This also happens to naturally raise Mech's skill floor, but in a way that could still be newb friendly in a lot of situations that they can safely sit at a distance.

 

3) Mechanist gets a proper ranged espec, which it doesn't quite have yet, and in a cool way which makes ALL your weapons ranged. This also conveniently makes mace actually synergize with the spec.

 

4) Your mech is now twice as customizable, leaning into the "modularity" gimmick that traits have, thus enriching the job fantasy.

 

5) Mechanist is still just as canon, if not moreso, because you operate it remotely like you do jadebots.

 

6) Mechanist is no longer stepping on Scrapper's toes conceptually, instead becoming kind of the inverse of Scrapper.

 

7) Players can still use it for relatively easy open world farming since everything is done at range, just with the tradeoff of being more vulnerable if they spread themselves too thin.

 

But again, the biggest benefit of making such a change would be to bring Mech back down to a level that can coexist with most of the other especs. I think it would still be extremely powerful in this form, and exponentially more fun because of the additional control you could have over your mech.

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by CourtJester.5908

[Kuma.1503]

In order for this to work a few things would need to happen. 

You'd need to replace Crash Down with a button with a button that overwrites your weapon skills and drops down the mech. You press it, you get a remote control module. You'd need buttons that let you choose what your mech does. Including one to lock it in place or move to a precise location. 

When you recall the mech, you get your weapon skills back. 

We'd also want to see some AI improvements because having 100% of your value come from Gw2 AI is... dubious at best. 

The Mech needs to be either be made signifiantly tankier or completely invulnerable. In fighting games for example, the puppet that you fight with usually does not extend a hurtbox that is vulnerable to damage. You need to maneuver past the puppet to attack the puppeteer. This is to counterbalance how helpless the puppeteer is without their puppet.

They fall apart when you successfully breach past their defenses and rush them down, but if they can use their puppet to keep you at range, they can stay safe from damage as they put up a brick wall. 

The last thing I'd do is give them toolbelts when they don't have their mech. This will introduce a skillful trade-off to the player where they must weigh the pros and cons of using the mech or using the core engi toolbelts. The mechanist trait-line will retain it's weakness where 99% of the power is given to the mech, so they will be effectively down one traitline without their mech. 

 

Overall, it's an interesting idea. It could have been a lot of fun if it was executed right. But I could also see it making a lot of people VERY angry in PvP. 

Puppeteer usually have some overlap with the zoner archetype. This is one of the most hated archetypes in gaming. Being unable to break past the wall as you get zoned out by a skilled puppet user is bound to cause a lot of rage. Even if it is balanced by the fact that they are extremely weak once jumped on. 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Alcatraznc.3869]

The idea is interesting however there are some things that would probably need to be clarified. 

 

-The operating range. In PvE you could for instance set the main body in your TP and let the pupet live his life and do his stuff to the other side of the map.  Not very efficient if you ask me but a possibility. However for PvP/WvW that's where the part becomes tricky. If you have no limit on the operating range then it basically becomes a spec that harass from a safe point without any form of counterplay. But if you fix a certain operating range then it would need to be fairly high as well, especially these days when any class can travel 1500 range in less than a few secs.

 

-Stationnary vs Mobile. Let's assume we have a good operating range. So now the question is, do we make the player stationnary or mobile as he pilot the mech. Making it mobile would means the player can dynamically adapt to the fight especially in WvW where it moves constantly but one drawback would be the opponent never being able to catch the main body. Making it stationnary (like deadeye kneel) would make it a hell lot vulnerable and not suited for WvW.

 

-Mech strenght and survivability. In PvE, now pets are basically immune to CC which really helps them support the player doing DPS but in WvW/PvP the mech dies easily and get CC easily as well. You never see them in WvW because of that and in PvP, mechs are just annoying tank that hold cap but cannot do anything on their own. Mech strenght and survivability will needs to be drastically improved to justify taking a spec that forces you to do more management but also straight up makes you a free food for anyone reaching your main body. Because why would I need to rely on a Mech/puppet that is a pain to manage and barely deal more damage than a Holosmith when I could just play Holosmith and do the whole job myself.

 

On a side note, Anet could steal some ideas on the whole puppet/master from Warframe (Warframe spoiler ahead I suppose).

 

Basically your puppet becomes the main body and the main body becomes an extension of the puppet. What I mean by that is you do everything with your warframe (puppet) but if it dies, you lose. On the other hand you can use your operator to help your warframe in some task. It does disable your warframe however the operator can for instance remove the armour of the enemies, or heal the warframe or damage/kill some enemies. If the operator dies, you are forced to return to your warframe with a temporary penalty to your max HP. 

What it means is that you can summon your operator as many time as you want however poor management will lead to less total HP resulting in a faster death.  

 

 

[EvilZombie.6801]

The guys who did the programming will be like guys its not easy to do all coding for the love of god give us a break

[Noah Salazar.5430]

No

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Noah Salazar.5430

[MaLong.2079]

The engineer then would have to be invulnerable while the 'puppet' is out. Otherwise the opponent will just go after the engi while the engi runs for his life and the mech chases them both. Sounds like a fun fight to watch though. 😁

[lotus.5672]

Thats the next mesmer elite spec

[Batalix.2873]

On 10/17/2022 at 8:57 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

In order for this to work a few things would need to happen. 

You'd need to replace Crash Down with a button with a button that overwrites your weapon skills and drops down the mech. You press it, you get a remote control module. You'd need buttons that let you choose what your mech does. Including one to lock it in place or move to a precise location. 

When you recall the mech, you get your weapon skills back. 

We'd also want to see some AI improvements because having 100% of your value come from Gw2 AI is... dubious at best. 

The Mech needs to be either be made signifiantly tankier or completely invulnerable. In fighting games for example, the puppet that you fight with usually does not extend a hurtbox that is vulnerable to damage. You need to maneuver past the puppet to attack the puppeteer. This is to counterbalance how helpless the puppeteer is without their puppet.

They fall apart when you successfully breach past their defenses and rush them down, but if they can use their puppet to keep you at range, they can stay safe from damage as they put up a brick wall. 

The last thing I'd do is give them toolbelts when they don't have their mech. This will introduce a skillful trade-off to the player where they must weigh the pros and cons of using the mech or using the core engi toolbelts. The mechanist trait-line will retain it's weakness where 99% of the power is given to the mech, so they will be effectively down one traitline without their mech. 

 

Overall, it's an interesting idea. It could have been a lot of fun if it was executed right. But I could also see it making a lot of people VERY angry in PvP. 

Puppeteer usually have some overlap with the zoner archetype. This is one of the most hated archetypes in gaming. Being unable to break past the wall as you get zoned out by a skilled puppet user is bound to cause a lot of rage. Even if it is balanced by the fact that they are extremely weak once jumped on. 

 

 

* Yes to Crash Down upgrade.

* As far as movement/lockdown, you could probably accomplish both with a single ground-target ability (where lockdown would just require moving your mech if it starts wandering off).

* I think there should be virtually NO AI in the Mech, should all be manually an extension of the player character (it's already an autopilot nightmare anyway and that is a large part of the problem).

* Mech is already quite tanky, but I agree if we go this route then it should be tankier and rely on keeping the player character alive. I think making it invulnerable is overboard.

* Giving the player toolbelts and normal weaponskills when Mech is put away is also a very fair tradeoff.

 

On 10/17/2022 at 9:37 PM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

The idea is interesting however there are some things that would probably need to be clarified. 

 

-The operating range. In PvE you could for instance set the main body in your TP and let the pupet live his life and do his stuff to the other side of the map.  Not very efficient if you ask me but a possibility. However for PvP/WvW that's where the part becomes tricky. If you have no limit on the operating range then it basically becomes a spec that harass from a safe point without any form of counterplay. But if you fix a certain operating range then it would need to be fairly high as well, especially these days when any class can travel 1500 range in less than a few secs.

 

-Stationnary vs Mobile. Let's assume we have a good operating range. So now the question is, do we make the player stationnary or mobile as he pilot the mech. Making it mobile would means the player can dynamically adapt to the fight especially in WvW where it moves constantly but one drawback would be the opponent never being able to catch the main body. Making it stationnary (like deadeye kneel) would make it a hell lot vulnerable and not suited for WvW.

 

-Mech strenght and survivability. In PvE, now pets are basically immune to CC which really helps them support the player doing DPS but in WvW/PvP the mech dies easily and get CC easily as well. You never see them in WvW because of that and in PvP, mechs are just annoying tank that hold cap but cannot do anything on their own. Mech strenght and survivability will needs to be drastically improved to justify taking a spec that forces you to do more management but also straight up makes you a free food for anyone reaching your main body. Because why would I need to rely on a Mech/puppet that is a pain to manage and barely deal more damage than a Holosmith when I could just play Holosmith and do the whole job myself.

 

On a side note, Anet could steal some ideas on the whole puppet/master from Warframe (Warframe spoiler ahead I suppose).

 

Basically your puppet becomes the main body and the main body becomes an extension of the puppet. What I mean by that is you do everything with your warframe (puppet) but if it dies, you lose. On the other hand you can use your operator to help your warframe in some task. It does disable your warframe however the operator can for instance remove the armour of the enemies, or heal the warframe or damage/kill some enemies. If the operator dies, you are forced to return to your warframe with a temporary penalty to your max HP. 

What it means is that you can summon your operator as many time as you want however poor management will lead to less total HP resulting in a faster death.  

 

 

 

*Reduce Mech's operating range, should have less range than ranger pets, especially if it were able to perform ranged attacks itself with rifle/pistol.

 

* Player should be mobile. Differentiates from Deadeye, gives them more agency themselves as well as a way to actively keep themselves out of danger. Plus if they still have access to utilities, they should have movement freedom to be able to use them.

 

* The benefit of Mech would be ranged damage and a tanky pet to hide behind, so I think survivability would be important while damage only needs to be middling. The tradeoff is you don't have to get your hands dirty and could potentially kill off enemies before they even reach you, whereas the benefit of melee builds like holo have always been the ability to take risks to end skirmishes more quickly.

 

On 10/18/2022 at 1:59 AM, EvilZombie.6801 said:

The guys who did the programming will be like guys its not easy to do all coding for the love of god give us a break

 

Honestly not that difficult to program compared to how other specs work. Shorten robot roaming range, clone a few animations to the mech with a little shiny jade effect, fiddle with F-key assignments, and tweak numbers. Other especs have had pretty substantial animation/effect changes over the years.

 

On 10/18/2022 at 9:33 AM, MaLong.2079 said:

The engineer then would have to be invulnerable while the 'puppet' is out. Otherwise the opponent will just go after the engi while the engi runs for his life and the mech chases them both. Sounds like a fun fight to watch though. 😁

 

Engineer would have utilities to keep themselves alive, but really the whole point behind this is that they would need to be sneaky/aggressive/proactive to try to kill the opponent before that distance can be closed, much like Deadeye. And either way, not every espec needs to be PvP viable, something which already somewhat applies to Mech. But I agree would make for a fun watch and I would still play the crap out of it even if I lost 99 percent of the time, because it would be *engaging*.

[Kuma.1503]

For clarity on the invulnerability point. 

Consider what the mech is replacing. You are replacing your weapon skills and utilities with the mech. This is necessary in order for the player to deal 0 dps. 

At which point, the mech is no longer filling the role of a pet, it is more akin to a Weapon or a Scourge Shade. 

Neither of these are destructible for obvious reasons. 

 

A destructible weapon with the durability of a pet sounds like a cool concept on paper, but in practice would be extremely frustrating to play as, and would have to be made OP in other areas in order to balance out this weakness.  Remember, the engineer is also helpless without it.

This would also result in it being frustrating to play against in competitive if it is ever viable. 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Batalix.2873]

 

12 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

For clarity on the invulnerability point. 

Consider what the mech is replacing. You are replacing your weapon skills and utilities with the mech. This is necessary in order for the player to deal 0 dps. 

At which point, the mech is no longer filling the role of a pet, it is more akin to a Weapon or a Scourge Shade. 

Neither of these are destructible for obvious reasons. 

 

A destructible weapon with the durability of a pet sounds like a cool concept on paper, but in practice would be extremely frustrating to play as, and would have to be made OP in other areas in order to balance out this weakness.  Remember, the engineer is also helpless without it.

This would also result in it being frustrating to play against in competitive if it is ever viable. 

 

 

I still disagree.

 

Scourge Shades destroy themselves after a short period of time and require constant reapplication. They are not ever-present. Whereas Mech's robot is practically ever-present, and in the rare occasion it dies, Mech has the elite skill to bring it right back.

 

Again, the player would still have utilities to stay alive until they can resummon, and, if we take your idea to give the player toolkits or even their weapon back when mech is not available, then they have even more survivability.

 

I think there could be room in certain competitive modes for it, but honestly not every spec needs to be competitive. Mech certainly isn't designed for that anyway, it is designed to be the lazy camp open world and support PvE job. It doesn't even really need to compete with Scrapper in WvW or Holo in PvP, but even still I argue that none of your issues would prevent it from being PvP viable with the right balancing, certainly no more than, say, Deadeye.

 

To emphasize, I don't think the mech should be *easily* destructible. If it is going to be a wall that the player hides behind, it should be a very sturdy wall. But there should still be punishment for the Mech treating the robot like they do now, with an eventual drawback if they only lazily autoattack things and don't worry about dodging or positioning. Consider it the DPS tax for standing in bad stuff, which I think is especially relevant for ranged jobs which already have things too easy (Virtuoso in particular needs a heavier ranged tax, but I don't see too many *mechanical* problems with it like with Mechanist, just a need to tune numbers down). 

[Kulvar.1239]

Replace signets with commands for the mech. With F1 to F4 still being toolbelt depending on which command is equipped.

The current Fx skills with mech abilities will be merged with active signets effects to make the commands.

[Malus.2184]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:50 AM, CourtJester.5908 said:

No other class has two characters as effectively as this. Mesmer clones do barely any damage unless tactfully ambushed or shattered. Scourge shades and Catalyst spheres can't move and have limited duration. Herald facets and Scrapper utilities don't really have any damage capacity and need to be triggered. Ranger pets do minimal damage and are effectively one extra utility skill on wheels. Mayyybe Untamed approaches this, but it doesn't have nearly the utility and flexibility of Mech and requires actually engaging with the game and your pet to pull off well.

The opposite end of the spectrum is that none of those stops working if their Spec mechanic dies. A Mechanist is near uselkess in the greater scheme of things if the mech dies.

I would personally love if there was significantly less power given to the mech and added to the Mechanist.

[Malus.2184]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:32 PM, Malus.2184 said:

The opposite end of the spectrum is that none of those stops working if their Spec mechanic dies. A Mechanist is near uselkess in the greater scheme of things if the mech dies.

I would personally love if there was significantly less power given to the mech and added to the Mechanist.

Same, I loathe being essentially a living paper weight in 100 CM when I'm giving Alac and someone touched a Fear and my mech died.

It would be so nice if it was more Mechanist and less mech with hanger-on Mechanist.