Accessibility Issues - locking achievements behind jump puzzles

[khemkitty.7942]

I would like to know what action the GW2 take to make their game accessible to all, because the current attitude towards locking items and achievements behind jump puzzles makes me feel that i’m not welcome.  

 

As someone with severe dyslexia I suffer from processing issues which makes jump puzzles extremely difficult, if not impossible, and I doubt that I'm the only disabled player with similar issues. 

 

I have spent the last few months grinding, in order to get the components required to make Aurene’s Bite and the Jormag attunement to go with it,only to find the required parts for the attunement locked behind a jump puzzle.  To make matters worse, the you can't use gliding but you haven’t disabled gliding (probably because you don’t welcome disabilities) nor provided players with the option to temporary remove it, as such you have made it impossible for me, and other player like me to get the the necessary achievement or others like it.

 

In order to make the game more accessible are you actually planning to do more than add a slightly more contrasting mouse (which should not have taken you until 2022).  You could for example consult different disability groups and players about how you can make the game more welcoming, for example not locking achievements behind impossible jump puzzles, or as a bare minimum spending at least 5 minutes thinking this through. 

 

I’m going to assume that you are an equal opportunities employer. Whilst it would be completely inappropriate to expect you disabled employees to provide feedback on this issue, you could make it clear that suggestions and feedback are welcome during the devlopment process.

 

[garpu.6210]

Which puzzles do you need? If it's the daily one, or one of the retrospective ones, there's almost always a mesmer willing to port. Same if you post in Players Helping Players that you need a friendly mesmer. 

[Linken.6345]

I think this is about mad clocktower.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I doubt Mad Clocktower is required for Aurene's Bite/Jormag Attunement. 

I've no idea which Jumping Puzzle OP has issues with; maybe it is this?  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purified_Icebrood_Aether

Interact with the Aurene's focusing crystal near the start of the Mystery of Drakkar's Lair light puzzle, then a second one at the end near the chest. 🤷‍♀️

Edited October 22, 2022 by Inculpatus cedo.9234

[khemkitty.7942]

Normally I use a Messer to get around this issue,  however portals invalid the achievement (Purified Icebrood ether) as does gliding.   So other then handing my account across to someone else to do it for me I’m now stuck.  What makes it more irritating  is that the other attunements don’t have a similar level of impossibility so there’s no good reason for it

[wolfyrik.2017]

10 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

I think this is about mad clocktower.

Why? The OP literally describes the issue, it's the Jormag weapon collection that's the problem. Nothing to do with clocktower.

 

11 hours ago, garpu.6210 said:

Which puzzles do you need? If it's the daily one, or one of the retrospective ones, there's almost always a mesmer willing to port. Same if you post in Players Helping Players that you need a friendly mesmer. 

The achievement needed for this collection fails if you use portals. It also fails if you use gliding which is a bit crappy given that many people experience random glides when jumping. Even more bizarre when you consider that gliding on the JP needed for Jormag weapons, is actually a hinderance. Lots of small platforms that accidentally/randomly gliding will cause you to miss.

 

I can see the issue with this one, frankly. It's the only Gen 3 skin collection that has this requirement, the others are siginficantly easier. This one is frustrating to have to restart beacuase you have to redo the whole section, with all the mirrors. There's also ranged enemies that will engage you in combat and prevent you making the jumps.

I feel like whoever designed this achievment, looked at the model of the area, at these size of the space and decided it was short, so needed extra difficulty, but they've never actually played it and didn't look at how the JP actually works.

Something we've seen a lot of examples of lately.

 

OP's question is valid and frankly, easily fixed. Anet could either:

1. remove the gliding restriction causing absolutely no detriment as frankly, it's unneeded, why should this one collection be crappier than the other 3?

2. give people what they've been asking for since HoT launch, allow a keybind/tickbox for gliding, so people can take it off the jump button.

 

Neither action would have a negative impact for any player but would improve the experience of the collection and gliding for many.

[Luthan.5236]

While I think that it is okay to have JPs needed for certain stuff (as other stuff might need other things - like raids ... where some people do not want to do them): If similar stuff is treated differently they should adjust it. wolfyrik explained something on this - so I guess it would be okay if they made changes there.

Though ... on the other hand: Isn't it only the skin for something that only a small amount of people might grind out? I think there is worse stuff where JPs are needed. (But most of them can be done with the help of a mesmer - at least such a thing should be allowed there then. Only JPs without mesmer help are the ones where you get transformed. Like clocktower.)

Edited October 23, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[zeyeti.8347]

You can lend me your account if you want , and have trust ofc , but understand that the game needs a sense of achievement , if anet made stuff easy for disable person , people will mostly profit from it and use it even if they are not disable .

for example , just look at the mech class , dont tell me this class wasnt disigned for disable persons.

But for the account share , i am serious , i've done mad clocktowers for persons of my guild who are really not in the 'jumping puzzle mood' i will just take 25% of your belongings as payment , nah ... kidding 😏. If you agree after that you can change your password , even if i have the memory of a dead goldfish.

Edited October 23, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[wolfyrik.2017]

5 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

You can lend me your account if you want , and have trust ofc , but understand that the game needs a sense of achievement , if anet made stuff easy for disable person , people will mostly profit from it and use it even if they are not disable .

for example , just look at the mech class , dont tell me this class wasnt disigned for disable persons.

But for the account share , i am serious , i've done mad clocktowers for persons of my guild who are really not in the 'jumping puzzle mood' i will just take 25% of your belongings as payment , nah ... kidding 😏. If you agree after that you can change your password , even if i have the memory of a dead goldfish.

 

Your argument is offensive and nonsense. By your standards, the other skin collections, don't have a sense of achievement, because they aren't as awkward as the one in discussion. You realise that's rubbish, right?

You can have achievement, without being ableist. The two do not correlate, it's a false dichotomy. No one is asking for the game to be easy either.

[zeyeti.8347]

Sorry didnt mean to be offensiv , and for the other skin achievements ,  it depends on your own standart , i think they are all pretty easy , but i understand people having trouble with puzzle jumps , i really ment the account share  , i ve done it many times for free (even for tribulation mode on SAB), and that was a proposition with no offensiv mean , but i understand that when you read me indeed you can think it is offensiv. But i really dont mean it.

[Linken.6345]

8 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

Why? The OP literally describes the issue, it's the Jormag weapon collection that's the problem. Nothing to do with clocktower.

 

The achievement needed for this collection fails if you use portals. It also fails if you use gliding which is a bit crappy given that many people experience random glides when jumping. Even more bizarre when you consider that gliding on the JP needed for Jormag weapons, is actually a hinderance. Lots of small platforms that accidentally/randomly gliding will cause you to miss.

 

I can see the issue with this one, frankly. It's the only Gen 3 skin collection that has this requirement, the others are siginficantly easier. This one is frustrating to have to restart beacuase you have to redo the whole section, with all the mirrors. There's also ranged enemies that will engage you in combat and prevent you making the jumps.

I feel like whoever designed this achievment, looked at the model of the area, at these size of the space and decided it was short, so needed extra difficulty, but they've never actually played it and didn't look at how the JP actually works.

Something we've seen a lot of examples of lately.

 

OP's question is valid and frankly, easily fixed. Anet could either:

1. remove the gliding restriction causing absolutely no detriment as frankly, it's unneeded, why should this one collection be crappier than the other 3?

2. give people what they've been asking for since HoT launch, allow a keybind/tickbox for gliding, so people can take it off the jump button.

 

Neither action would have a negative impact for any player but would improve the experience of the collection and gliding for many.

Well dark text on dark mode this thread poping up the same week hallowen and the mad clocktower comes back into the game.

It was a wild guess based of the title.

[Silent.6137]

11 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

This one is frustrating to have to restart beacuase you have to redo the whole section, with all the mirrors. There's also ranged enemies that will engage you in combat and prevent you making the jumps.

Have to restart but Light Puzzle are not needed. Just activate crystal at the beginning, run through the caves and get to the end to activate another crystal. There are only 2 areas where you are vulnerable to single wurms but they are easily killed.

10 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Though ... on the other hand: Isn't it only the skin for something that only a small amount of people might grind out?

The problem is unless you consult Wiki, you would not know about the JP until you have finished 1/2 of the requirements. Even if it's a small number of people, it's still pertinent.

Deploying glider accidently has been a constant frustrations for many who wants to do the JPs themselves instead of relying on Mesmers or TP to Friends.

[khemkitty.7942]

Just to clarify a few points.  I’m not asking for the GW2 to be made easier,  I enjoy the challenge, as demonstrated by the fact I did a PhD in the physical sciences despite needing to read 100’s of not very interesting scientific papers and write a 100,000 word thesis.

I’m also not asking for ArenaNet to remove jump puzzles or similar achievements. Impairment or not we all have things that we’re good and bad at. 

There plenty of siutuations were ArenaNet provide accessble options, take the example of legendries, for the most part the are multiple options to obtain non-purchasable parts. The gift of battle can be obtained from either WvW or PvP, and when it comes to WvW there’s big spender, master of monuments, veteran creature slayer and land claimer, all in my case are accessible.   

It was/is the same for dungeon currency and skins, you can either do the actual dungeon or you can do the WvW or PvP reward track so players have the option that suits them most, irrespective of an impairment.

A similar approach is taken to the festival skins,  there are several dailies to choose from, and generally players can choose which achievements to go for, in order to get the skin.  Hence why there was an issue last year when they made the clock tower compulsory for certain skins /achievments, given the issue with jump puzzles

My problem is that ArenaNet are aware that jump puzzles are an accessibility issue and yet have gone down this route for the  Aurene's Facet of Persuasion with no alternative. They also made it dependent on not using a glider despite also been aware that this is also an issue for disabled players, whilst removing portals  as an alternative / workaround. They could have made it so that players could have used any of the Aurene Focusing Crystals, this way I and others have the option to do the mini dungeon instead, without making it easier, as this is the achievement for the Lingering Branded Ether.

I’m just asking that ArenaNet give some thought to how they handle collections etc so that they not adding unnecessary barriers to the game, especially ones that don’t add anything.

Some players have mentioned that it’s only a skin.  Firstly, I have invested a lot of time and in game currency to make the legendary, and to get this far with the Jormag facet.

Secondary, when promoting EOD, ArenaNet made a big deal about the Gen 3 legendaries, and how the facets would work. Whilst this wasn’t my main reason for getting the expansion it was a contributing factor so to find that I’ve been excluded from part of this is extremely frustrating and disappointing.

Some people have pointed out that they concerned that non-disabled player may take advantages of accessibility changes to the game.  I realise that this may be an issue and that futher dicussion is required  but is it fair to discrimnate against an entire group due to a few bad apples.  For the most part the game is very inclusive, although ArenaNet could do a lot more,  and the community is willing to help, for example coming up with low intensity builds and using portals, but in this specifc case the workaround as been removed for no obvious reason.

Also, by making certain collections etc inaccessible, they are leaving disabled players at the mercy of unscrupulous players.  At the moment my only alternative is to hand my account to someone else, and I’m sure I don’t have to explain the risks with this.

Edited October 24, 2022 by khemkitty.7942
improved claification

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:24 PM, Silent.6137 said:

Have to restart but Light Puzzle are not needed. Just activate crystal at the beginning, run through the caves and get to the end to activate another crystal. There are only 2 areas where you are vulnerable to single wurms but they are easily killed.

The problem is unless you consult Wiki, you would not know about the JP until you have finished 1/2 of the requirements. Even if it's a small number of people, it's still pertinent.

Deploying glider accidently has been a constant frustrations for many who wants to do the JPs themselves instead of relying on Mesmers or TP to Friends.

Exactly this. I don't even have the collection but it's another example of seemingly arbitrary decisions that dispropotionately affect certain people. It would be so easily fixed, or avoided in the first place, with just a bit of thought.

It's a sad fact but even WoW, even stuffing Activision Blizzard, are making their games more accessible. Anet and GW2 are always so near to greatness but they keep falling short over really easy to spot BS.

Edited October 25, 2022 by wolfyrik.2017

[khemkitty.7942]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:24 PM, Silent.6137 said:

Have to restart but Light Puzzle are not needed. Just activate crystal at the beginning, run through the caves and get to the end to activate another crystal. There are only 2 areas where you are vulnerable to single wurms but they are easily killed.

The problem is unless you consult Wiki, you would not know about the JP until you have finished 1/2 of the requirements. Even if it's a small number of people, it's still pertinent.

Deploying glider accidently has been a constant frustrations for many who wants to do the JPs themselves instead of relying on Mesmers or TP to Friends.

Thanks for letting me know this, unfortunately given my accessibility issues I can't actually make it past the broken gateway in the first area, I either can't make the jump or accidently employ my glider so I don't think it is going to make any difference.  The achievement is still pretty much impossible, it is so frustrating, especially as it could have been easily resolved.

 

The more I look at forum posts etc the more I’m starting to think that ArenaNet really doesn't care about disabled players. It’s all token gestures or leaving it entirely up to the GW2 community to sort, pretty much minmal effort from ArenaNet despite making a big deal about diversity in the media.   I did a bit more digging through the website and  I realised that whilst both the ArenaNet and NCSoft Code of Conduct explicitly mention that discrination about most "minority" groups is not acceptable, they somehow managed to leave out disability discrination / ableism. ArenaNet, how do you somehow forget about an entire group? 

Edited October 27, 2022 by khemkitty.7942
spelling

[Silent.6137]

2 hours ago, khemkitty.7942 said:

they somehow managed to leave out disability discrination / ableism. ArenaNet, how do you somehow forget about an entire group? 

It is not discrimination when something is overlooked unintentionally. However, addressing this issue should be somewhat of a priority.

In regards to gliding, this has been a constant complain and request for a long time. There should be an option to either disable it or have keybinds to activate. It does nothing more than to add frustrations. Why gliding and jumping are bound to the same key is simply beyond me.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Silent.6137

[zeyeti.8347]

27 minutes ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

The change asked for, would have zero negative impact on the game but would increase playability for some

Sorry to say that , but it will impact players , who here who has not any disabilitys would take a portal to do this ? i think a lot , if anet starts ease things everytime someone complain about not being able to do domething , ... well i won't imagine the game state atm , anet implemented that "fail when port or glide" with a purpose , and it's just about a skin swap for zhaitan collection , ... there is stuff people won't be able to do all over the game (raids , clocktower , etc etc ) so if all those people start complaining about that .... Imagine ppl saying harvets temple cm is too difficult because they have focus problems , well too bad anet is not gonna ease the mission for them , -> do it normal mode.

And the thing with the glide opening randomly  , it's because of stress : when you jump and know you ll need to start all over if you fall or glide , you ll mostly click nervously space bar and open your glider , so just chill.

Btw i am pretty sure while we are still writing here the OP has already overcome the difficulty and passed the jp.

[khemkitty.7942]

To all the lovely "children" who took time to respond to my post, I wanted to thank you. I’m trying to keep my post on the front page in the hope that someone from ArenaNet reads it and resolves my issue and you helped me with this.

 

As some one with literacy issues, I also wanted to let you know that there is help out there.  Furthermore, information on disabilities/ impairments, disability discrimination and ableism are available in a wide range of accessible formats, so you should have no issues properly educating yourselves, no reading necessary.

 

Also, No, I haven’t competed the achievement / jump puzzle.  When I said it was inaccessible due to an impairment, I don’t mean it’s difficult, a minor annoyance,  I mean that it’s inaccessible, i.e. impossible.

 

I have a neurobiological issue which means that I don’t process visual or audio data correctly.  Any decision, active or passive that relies on audio and/or visual data is delayed, be that reading, hitting a ball with a bat or tapping a button on a jump puzzle.  It even effects my sense of balance.

 

There is no cure, no treatment,  I’m not going to wake up one day and find that my brain has suddenly re-wired itself. 

 

I’m quite fortunate, the rest of my cognitive abilities are good, so to a certain extend I’ve learned to adapt, in most cases it takes people a while to realise I have an issue.  However, there are some issues that I can’t workaround, jump puzzles included, I can’t make a brain process data any more effectively

Edited October 28, 2022 by khemkitty.7942

[KeoLegend.5132]

So if someone doesn't have an arm should we just get rid of the achievement or the jumping puzzle, or make the character auto-complete it if he stand still for long enough?

 

The game is already very accessible, to the point where gutting more content in the name of accessibility will make the game objectively worse because we disabled ppl has different disabilities, so it will be impossible to the game to be 100% accessible for everyone

[khemkitty.7942]

1 hour ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

So if someone doesn't have an arm should we just get rid of the achievement or the jumping puzzle, or make the character auto-complete it if he stand still for long enough?

 

The game is already very accessible, to the point where gutting more content in the name of accessibility will make the game objectively worse because we disabled ppl has different disabilities, so it will be impossible to the game to be 100% accessible for everyone

To reiterate (again) I have not suggested that we remove this jumping puzzle or any jumping puzzles, nor have I suggested that the achievement is removed.  

 

What I have said is in order to make the Aurene Facet of Persuasion collection accessible to all players, change it so the players can use any of the Aurene Focusing Crystals to purify the factet.  The Lingering Branded Ether for the Kralkatorrik version of the Aurene legendary Weapons requires a Focussing Crystal in a Mini Dungeon, and this would be a better option for some players.  Making this change wouldn’t negatively impact other players or make the game easier but it would make the game more accessible and should be relativley simple to apply.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I'm not sure Sanctum of Nabkha is equivalent to Mystery of Drakkar's Lair.  I've seen many posts about players disliking Jumping Puzzles, but few posts about players disliking Jackal portal-based puzzles.  

Also, it would not fit with the lore theme. 

 

Whilst you await your suggestions' implementation, you might consider practicing tapping the space bar, rather than holding it under stress.

Good luck.

[khemkitty.7942]

14 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

I'm not sure Sanctum of Nabkha is equivalent to Mystery of Drakkar's Lair.  I've seen many posts about players disliking Jumping Puzzles, but few posts about players disliking Jackal portal-based puzzles.  

Also, it would not fit with the lore theme. 

 

Whilst you await your suggestions' implementation, you might consider practicing tapping the space bar, rather than holding it under stress.

Good luck.

Ironically, that was my original point, why has the Jormag facet been locked behind a jump puzzle achievement where the player cannot use gliding or portals, when the other facets are condered to be much “easier” by the players, especially given that jump puzzles and the glider deployment are known  issues for disabled players.

 

The Jormag version isn’t any better than the Kralkatorrik version, they’re are both part of the Legendary Facets of Aurene Collection.  The Jormag version doesn’t provide any benefits over the other dragons skins.  When it comes down to it they’re all fundamentally a re-colourisation of the same weapon, albeit a very sparkly, glittery one. The choice of which facet to go for, boils down to which appearance you prefer, it's arbitrary.  In my case I prefer the winter storm aesthetic to the branded one, there will be equally as many players who prefer the branded, fire or plant versions.

 

So why single out the Jormag version, it makes no logical sense. The only impact it has is to make it virtually impossible for disabled players to access.

 

After over a 100 attempts at the puzzle, including changing my build to provide permanent swiftness, and mostly not making it past the first chamber, I had to get my partner to complete the jump puzzle for me.  Surely from a fairness point of view it would have been better if I had earned the achievement, but via a different route, rather than someone else doing it.  I’ve seen several generally uneducated and incorrect  responses complaining about how accessibility will remove their sense of achievement (some have now been removed) but what about my sense of achievement, am I to be denied based purely on the fact that I have a disability.

Edited October 29, 2022 by khemkitty.7942