Dragonhunter Rework Ideas (from mild to crazy)

[eldrevo.1746]

After seeing rather bold reworks and adjustments to specs like Berserker, Herald, Tempest, Chrono or Scrapper, I think it's time to wisit good ol' Dragonhunter as well. Some of its traits and skills do seem outdated and not really fitting the modern gameplay of GW2 and, to be honest, the fantasy of a Hunter-themed Guardian. Here are my few cents, starting with the mild changes to numbers and traits.
Please note, this bunch of ideas does not touch balance. The numbers should get tweaked anyway, and primarily focus here is game mechanics of the spec.

Gameplay

What are current issues of the Dragonhunter spec? I'd say, it's not quite as flexible. The main purpose of the spec is bursty glass cannon Power DPS, and most trait and utility choices for Power DPS are pretty obvious without much wiggle room. Some traits are mandatory, some are useless. Some Utilities barely see any play, while others not only are mandatory, but also force the Ranged-focused spec to play in melee range. This is the main thing I'd like to change.

1. Make all Traps able to be cast from 900-1200 range.
   1. Either thrown / launched as a projectile (like Longbow 4) or instantly cast like Concecrations or Necro Marks. 
   2. Currently, Traps is what keeps the Dragonhunter from being a purely Ranged spec like Virtuoso or Scourge. 
   3. Seeing Dragonhunter being better at the job than the Ranger already, I'd like it to take another page from WoW Hunter's book and learn how to throw traps already!
2. Swap Dulled Senses and Zealot's Aggression into Passive traits
   1. Zealot's Aggression is almost a mandatory pick for any Power DPS Dragonhunter, and the spec is mainly about Power DPS anyway. 
   2. Dulled Senses is a complimentary trait that provides more Cripple but it doesn't see as much attention just because there's a lot of other Cripple sources, and also if you pick any Traps, you'd rather go Piercing Light.
   3. Defender's Dogma is far more specific choice with an interesting defensive mechanic, so I'd rather see it as exactly this: a choice.
   4. With how, uh, dull the Dulled Senses is, I could see it being merged with Zealot's Aggression freeing a spot for another trait!
3. Put Defender's Dogma into an Adept slot replacing Dulled Senses and Pure of Sight into a Grandmaster slot replacing Hunter's Fortification.
   Make Pure of Sight the Longbow trait.
   Put Hunter's Fortification in Master replacing Zealot's Aggression.
   1. This way we'll have the 'Block' line with Defender's Dogma, Hunter's Determination / Bulwark / Hunter's Fortification rewarding blocking attacks and providing more ways to block
   2. Pure of Sight could reduce Longbow skill cooldowns by 20% in addition to increasing damage dealt from range. It'll make sense as an active choice because a melee DH could pick a different option, and a ranged DH would be incentivised to pick this trait and pick Longbow for it.
   3. This way we'll also have 3 different DPS traits in Grandmaster row and 3 different Defence traits in Master row which is a bit less flexible, but offers more meaningful choice and utility to buildcrafting. 
4. Rework and buff Soaring Devastation and Bulwark
   1. To be honest, I'm kind of running out of ideas with these two. I like the idea of 'Virtues row' which buffs all 3 of them, but while Big Game Hunter is doing fine, these two just don't stand againt their competition, not doing anything interesting or valuable. 
   2. Soaring Devastation can, at the very least, provide 25% movespeed at all times.
      It can also make F2 an evade (though I'd rather see it baseline, getting CC'd midjump is terrible considering the heal applies only after the jump lands).
      It can also also give a burst of Swiftness/Superspeed after F2 to compete with Piercing Light and Trapper runes.
      It can also give that sweet speed burst after casting certain abilities (from the one and only self-rooting True Shot to all symbol skills or all weapon 2 skills to be more valuable across all the weapon sets)
   3. Bulwark can give Aegis or extend the block state (see 'Mirage mirror for blocking' section) after the F3 ends.
      It can also simply reduce the cooldown of F3. To make things more interesting, it could drastically reduce the cooldown of F3 but also lowering its duration instead of prolonging it, and cutting Aegis application as well
      It can also reset the cooldown of F1 (though I feel like Defender's Dogma is a better trait for this functionality)
      It can also give free F3 cast or the block state when finishing enemies, reviving allies or casting certain abilities (Weapon 5 skills, Heal skills or Elite skills, though we already have Hunter's Determination for that)

Theme

What do we have on Dragonhunter? It's Hunter-themed and able to bend the Light into certain physical forms from empowering Virtues to creating Longbow arrows and traps.  How can we improve it?

1. Make Virtues more weapon-themed
   1. Spear is already fine. It's a spear
   2. Wings are not a weapon and don't really fit the Hunter theme. There are different weapons to think of when it comes to a leap, from Bow/Arrow (becoming an arrow of light being shot from a giant spirit bow?) to Greatsword (GS3 leap on steroids) or even Staff (Become an flying orb of light? Vault like Daredevil Staff 5, maybe using a spirit staff as a support to push off the ground?) It's an odd adjustment but I feel it'll make the theme more consistent.
   3. Shield is sort of fine, not the best Hunter weapon, but what else do we have for a pure defensive skill? The only thing I wish is a better VFX. Make it a real spiritual shield instead of some force field!
2. Make Defender's Dogma and Hunter's Fortification activate on Block and Evade.
   Add more Vigor application on defensive traits like Hunter's Determination and Soaring Devastation
   Or instead, add a unique block mechanic to further support block synergy
   1. Taking a page from Virtuoso's book, I suggest to follow the fantasy of the Dragonhunter being a cunning survivalist, adapted to harsh jungle conditions and coming up with new ways of using physical skills (dodges and evades) to gain upper hand in battle against dragons. It'll also synergize with Longbow's Symbol of Energy.
   2. With Dragonhunter already having plenty of blocks and also with having Willbender as a dodgy ninja spec this can be a bit over the top to balance. If so, I'd think of something like Mirage mirrors but for blocks: a spec-exclusive mechanic that gives a specific ability to block attacks over a short duration. Aegis fragments is a good example. We'll need more of that attached to different defensive traits and abilities.
3. Make Dragonhunter able to share offensive boons like Might, Fury and Vigor. 
   Piercing Light could share the trap's boons to allies.  
   Dulled Senses could pulse Might whenever you CC or Cripple foes. 
   Defender's Dogma or any other Master could pulse Fury on block. 
   Soaring Devastation or baseline F2 could pulse Vigor on cast.
   1. We already have a purely selfish spec in Willbender (and even that can be used as Alac support, funnily enough). Dragonhunter, while being more selfish than Core Guardian, still can support allies by landing F2 and F3 on them. 
   2. While Dragonhunter can be sold as a lone wolf survivalist (Still best Lone Wolf playstyle in the game!), being a Guardian means having a hunting party and providing to it. And being an offensive DPS spec means the thing we'll provide is offensive boons so the party can hunt even more dragons!
   3. Overall Might and Fury sharing is kind of in the grey zone at the moment. Anet allows more and more specs contribute to it, yet we still have a situation where any Mech or Druid covers 25 Might, whereas most Quickness DPS and specs like Specter, Scrapper, Herald or Untamed are far from keeping up and thus are less favorable. Giving DPS specs (that lack Quickness or Alacrity option) an option to be a reliable Might/Fury provider without losing much DPS is a nice way to fix this.

Other Guardian ideas

1. Rework Eternal Armory, the Spirit weapon trait in Zeal!
   1. Mesmer Shatters (Master of Fragmentation) treatment: All spirit weapons now have enhanced functionality.
      Bow cleanses more conditions or applies regeneration
      Hammer applies debilitating conditions or stuns for longer
      Sword applies burning or has increased area or spins for longer
      Shield reflects projectiles or grants Protection/Resolution/Aegis inside of it
   2. Weapon synergy treatment: Weapon skills (Symbols? Skill 5?) on (Great)Sword, Hammer, Shield and Longbow cast an according Spirit weapon for free.
      It can also be tied to Weapon traits (Right-Hand Strength, Stalwart Defender, Glacial Heart etc)
      It can also be tied to some Dragonhunter trait to further empower the Weapon-based theme of the spec (thought it'll conflict with Zeal)
2. Rework Glacial Heart, the Chill and Hammer trait in Virtues!
   1. While it may feel odd to have Chill trait on the Burn-focused profession, I actually like this option to wander off the general theme! But I'm still confused and not sure why is it tied exclusively to Hammer. 
   2. Glacial Heart could make one skill of each weapon (Weapon 2? Symbol?) apply Chill
   3. We could also have a different Hammer trait that also reduces Hammer skill cooldowns by 20% as most other weapon traits.
   4. I also like the idea of moving the Hammer trait to Honor and swapping the Focus trait to Virtues, also reworking it to be actually useful to pick with Focus. 

 

Before I sum things up, I'd like to say there's a LOT of great Guardian-related ideas both on this forum and the subreddit. There are a lot of hot topics from Hammer rework to True Shot self-rooting. While I support these conversations where I can, I wanted to add some more food for thought, especially considering my favorite specialization, the Dragonhunter, and the issues its trait have, in my opinion. So, uh, thanks for coming for my design brainstorming session! /discuss

[Frayze.4620]

I will say that DH traps bring melee only while the spec weapon is a longbow never really made sense to me.

[ApaWanka.2698]

From a Pvp/Wvw I would like DH fill the role of dueler / sidenoder.  Mid Damage and high sustain.

 

Core can DPS but it’s not the best so it is mainly Support small group.

FB is support for bigger groups.

WB is pure DPS with high mobility but squishy. 

 

that leave a niche space to be filled that is out of reach for guardians right now because if not support, our sustain in not really high to keep a long fights and we the nerf of trapper runes we lost our best defense.

 

that would fill the theme of lonely hunter able to survive by himself against the odds. 

 

[eldrevo.1746]

2 hours ago, ApaWanka.2698 said:

From a Pvp/Wvw I would like DH fill the role of dueler / sidenoder.  Mid Damage and high sustain.

I feel like Willbender is a better fit tbh. It's more of a roamer cos of mobility, but it's more of a sustained dps/survivability kind of spec with the incentive to actively cycle through virtues (and trade agressively to gain value from them), low cooldown heal and alacrity. It's also more selfish than DH by design, and heavily melee-focused.

Dragonhunter on the other side is more of a glass cannon (not mandatorily) ranged bursty DPS that could work well in group with fellow DPS and support to cover over its vulnerabilities (which he kinda does in WvW zerg already).

And for a tanky side noder, I'd say we could use another elite spec focused more on sustain in prolonged fights. Maybe tweak Willy or FB for that role.

[Batalix.2873]

Never played DH but the trap idea alone would make me curious to try it.

 

I'm not opposed to DH becoming "light-weapons" themed, provided that it doesn't poach on whatever the fourth espec design will be. Between pistol and warhorn I'm not sure what direction the devs will want to take it and if they will want to conserve design space.

 

Not really familiar with all the trait suggestions, so no comment there.

[draxynnic.3719]

We actually had 'Rangers throw traps' as a trait pre-HoT, but it got wiped out in the trait rework.

I don't think it'd be particularly fair for dragonhunter to be able to throw the traps at people, though. They're stronger than most ranger traps, and it would be removing some of the predictability of traps that can lead to them having some counterplay. The way I tend to look at dragonhunter having traps and a ranged weapon and range-oriented traits is that if you're using the DH's full kit, what you're essentially doing is setting up a catch-22 for the dragon minion you're hunting - if it comes after you it risks running into your traps, if it doesn't, you get to shoot at it freely. Win-win (unless the dragon minion outshoots you, in which case, maybe bring Wall of Reflection?).

If you want to play dragonhunter as a purely ranged character, I think there are core utility skills that will serve that purpose. Sword of Justice, for instance, is basically throwing a Procession of Blades at your enemy already, but it's balanced on the basis that it's a ranged utility rather than a trap. Most consecrations and spirit weapons are useful in a ranged fight in general (although which ones you'd take would depend on whether you're running condi or power and what you're going up against), while shouts and signets are generally useful for self-buffing. You don't HAVE to run traps just because they're the elite specialisation utilities. But they are good to have if things do get too close for comfort!

[eldrevo.1746]

18 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

We actually had 'Rangers throw traps' as a trait pre-HoT, but it got wiped out in the trait rework.

Oh, did we? I didn't know that, cool! Although, when it comes to Ranger, its Traps are the core utility available to both melee and ranged builds. And while I don't mean the Dragonhunter should be ranged only, I still feel that limiting its Traps to melee is against the spec's theme.

18 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think it'd be particularly fair for dragonhunter to be able to throw the traps at people, though. They're stronger than most ranger traps, and it would be removing some of the predictability of traps that can lead to them having some counterplay.

Yes but no 😄 You can still have counterplay in adding the projectile telegraph to a thrown trap, so the farther the trap is thrown, the more time it'll take to land, having the need to lead your target if it's moving too if you want extra risk and complexity. With Spirit Weapons and Concecrations being instantly cast on an area, I think it'll keep Traps both unique and well balanced (and let's not forget we could always tweak the numbers for balance sake)

[Chaion.8341]

God help them if they remove my Virtue 2 wing jump animation. 

[Antina.5973]

1 hour ago, Chaion.8341 said:

God help them if they remove my Virtue 2 wing jump animation. 

That's like one of my favourite animations in the game. Other were mantra chants, but those are already gone. Same for Old-school tomes 😞

[Kodama.6453]

On 10/28/2022 at 10:44 AM, eldrevo.1746 said:

Oh, did we? I didn't know that, cool! Although, when it comes to Ranger, its Traps are the core utility available to both melee and ranged builds. And while I don't mean the Dragonhunter should be ranged only, I still feel that limiting its Traps to melee is against the spec's theme.

The thing is, traps are traps, not wells.

The key difference between wells and traps is basically that: you are bringing the well to the target (by either placing them at range like chronomancer/necromancer, or by delivering it to the target as a scrapper/specter). Meanwhile for traps, you are supposed to bring the target to the trap. This is why they keep lingering unactivated on the ground until a viable target walks over them.

The idea for dragonhunter traps is that they are another kiting tool. You place them and attack the enemy from range. While they try to close the gap to you, they walk over your traps and get punished. Bring the target to the trap. Dragonhunter even has another tool to do that with F1, giving them a pull skill to force the enemy into the traps.

The only situation in which traps are "melee only" is against stationary targets. Against anything that can move, they still make alot of sense for a ranged playstyle. You just have to change how you approach them. Bring the target to the trap, not the trap to the target. Think of them as actual traps, not as wells.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The DH Traitline and LB are what need work, not their virtues or traps. The trait line is pretty bland, and LB has that awkward self root in it. LB's AA could be better to.

[Dadnir.5038]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The DH Traitline and LB are what need work, not their virtues or traps. The trait line is pretty bland, and LB has that awkward self root in it. LB's AA could be better to.

This.

Longbow is simply horrible QoL wise.

[Scalacious.4139]

On 10/26/2022 at 12:12 AM, eldrevo.1746 said:

Rework Glacial Heart, the Chill and Hammer trait in Virtues!

1. While it may feel odd to have Chill trait on the Burn-focused profession, I actually like this option to wander off the general theme! But I'm still confused and not sure why is it tied exclusively to Hammer. 
2. Glacial Heart could make one skill of each weapon (Weapon 2? Symbol?) apply Chill

 

LB3 Deflecting Shot does allready apply Chill with this trait as does the pull from F1 and the elite trap Dragon's Maw.

[eldrevo.1746]

On 11/10/2022 at 1:12 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

You just have to change how you approach them. Bring the target to the trap, not the trap to the target. Think of them as actual traps, not as wells.

Good point and good fantasy, but arguable in terms of final gameplay experience. Sure, mind games, kiting and area denial are great aspects of traps, especially in PvP. But when it comes to PvE, I want to be proactive, I want every skill activation to bring value. And to do that against the majority of AI opponents in the game, I need to bring the pain to them. The other way around just isn't supported by how the game operates aside from some very basic cases.

Then, your definition of a trap. I like it, really, but I also don't see one key element here: activation. Wells are activated the moment you put them. Traps are activated when an enemy steps on them. This, not range, is what defines traps in my opinion. You can toss a trap somewhere and it'll still be a trap. You can disarm a trap and it won't be a threat anymore. But if you make a trap, even a melee-only one, activate the moment you cast itm it won't be a trap anymore. 

In WoW of all games, hunters gained range on traps over some years, and it didn't hurt the skill or class fantasy by a bit. You can only improve this fantasy by keeping some activation time between you cast a trap and it can trigger (like ranger traps still do, afaik). You can add projectile travel time to launch the trap. You can still use ranged traps as a kiting and area denial tool, just more flexible at that.

On 11/10/2022 at 1:25 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The DH Traitline and LB are what need work, not their virtues or traps. The trait line is pretty bland, and LB has that awkward self root in it. LB's AA could be better to.

I'm not denying that traitlines and Longbow skills are in a much more dire need of a rework. That's why I made a crap ton suggestion on these too. Feel free to comment on them or propose your own 🙂

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, eldrevo.1746 said:

Good point and good fantasy, but arguable in terms of final gameplay experience. Sure, mind games, kiting and area denial are great aspects of traps, especially in PvP. But when it comes to PvE, I want to be proactive, I want every skill activation to bring value. And to do that against the majority of AI opponents in the game, I need to bring the pain to them. The other way around just isn't supported by how the game operates aside from some very basic cases.

Nohing is hindering you here.

If you want to be ranged and use traps, use them while kiting. The only enemies this doesn't work against are stationary ones, I think this is a compromise someone can take.

1 hour ago, eldrevo.1746 said:

Then, your definition of a trap. I like it, really, but I also don't see one key element here: activation. Wells are activated the moment you put them. Traps are activated when an enemy steps on them. This, not range, is what defines traps in my opinion. You can toss a trap somewhere and it'll still be a trap. You can disarm a trap and it won't be a threat anymore. But if you make a trap, even a melee-only one, activate the moment you cast itm it won't be a trap anymore. 

The thing is, if you can throw them at range on top of enemies.... what is the advantage of wells anymore?

Traps just become straight up better versions of wells at this point. Because you can use them exactly the same way as wells (throw them on the target, almost immediate effect triggered), but you can also use the trap function to have them linger on the ground for later activation.

The removal of the throwing trap trait for rangers has been quite some years ago (2015 apparently), but if I recall correctly, then the reasoning was exactly because they didn't like that everyone started to use them the exact same way as wells. There was no point in them being traps anymore, everyone just threw them on the target and they immediately activated, just like wells. And Anet wanted to have that distinction between these skill types. Because fantasy does play a role here.

1 hour ago, eldrevo.1746 said:

In WoW of all games, hunters gained range on traps over some years, and it didn't hurt the skill or class fantasy by a bit. You can only improve this fantasy by keeping some activation time between you cast a trap and it can trigger (like ranger traps still do, afaik). You can add projectile travel time to launch the trap. You can still use ranged traps as a kiting and area denial tool, just more flexible at that.

Yeah, I get that you want the best of both worlds here...

But again, what is the big advantage of wells then? If traps become ranged again, then I would also advocate to make wells all linger on the ground until activated if there hasn't already been a viable target for them. So basically: all wells become traps, too.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, eldrevo.1746 said:

I'm not denying that traitlines and Longbow skills are in a much more dire need of a rework. That's why I made a crap ton suggestion on these too. Feel free to comment on them or propose your own 🙂

Guard isn't my main, so I'm not that inclined to do so in great detail, but I'll freely admit that LB, Hammer, Scepter AA, and the DH traitline on Guard all need solid work.

The traits on DH are just... weak. They gave warrior a stronger version of one of the GM traits without a CD for instance. Seems fair to remove the CD from the DH trait. That is just one example. To me when I play my DH the LB AA feels too slow and the self root on the set is jarring. The DH virtues are amazing profession mechanic skills to have however.

[eldrevo.1746]

17 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Nohing is hindering you here.

If you want to be ranged and use traps, use them while kiting. The only enemies this doesn't work against are stationary ones, I think this is a compromise someone can take.

There is in fact one thing that's hindering me considerably. And it is how almost all endgame PVE content is designed. 

In most meta events, strike missions, fractals and raids there's nothing to kite. Even if there is, my role as a ranged DPS is not to blast things on sight, preferably from range. Even if I could kite anything anywhere, doing so would be griefing my team and hindering my effectiveness at my primary job (of blasting things on sight). 

17 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

But again, what is the big advantage of wells then? If traps become ranged again, then I would also advocate to make wells all linger on the ground until activated if there hasn't already been a viable target for them. So basically: all wells become traps, too.

We have lingering ranged wells already. They are called Necromancer Marks. I don't see much issue in them co-existing with Wells of the same Necromancer since the release of the game. They're also instant cast and instant trigger, something you could change with traps by adding arm-up time and travel speed to them to counter-balance or add unique flavor. 

[Kodama.6453]

14 hours ago, eldrevo.1746 said:

There is in fact one thing that's hindering me considerably. And it is how almost all endgame PVE content is designed. 

In most meta events, strike missions, fractals and raids there's nothing to kite. Even if there is, my role as a ranged DPS is not to blast things on sight, preferably from range. Even if I could kite anything anywhere, doing so would be griefing my team and hindering my effectiveness at my primary job (of blasting things on sight). 

In most raids, strike missions, fractals, etc you are expected to stack on top of the target for the boons and healing anyway. These are the environments where it's really not a hindrance that they are "melee only".

14 hours ago, eldrevo.1746 said:

We have lingering ranged wells already. They are called Necromancer Marks. I don't see much issue in them co-existing with Wells of the same Necromancer since the release of the game. They're also instant cast and instant trigger, something you could change with traps by adding arm-up time and travel speed to them to counter-balance or add unique flavor. 

Ok, I have to ask at this point: what is your definition of a well?

A well is a lingering, pulsing field. Marks are not that, they are a single strike against the enemy who triggers them. Next thing you want to tell me that engineer mines are "wells" too?

[eldrevo.1746]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

In most raids, strike missions, fractals, etc you are expected to stack on top of the target for the boons and healing anyway. These are the environments where it's really not a hindrance that they are "melee only".

Except the latest and most challenging content such as Ankka and Harvest Temple CM tend to favor ranged damage, giving specs like Virtuoso, Mechanist and Scourge great advantage. Not to mention even in older raid encounters being able to do full damage rotation from range helps with DPS uptime a lot and allows doubling as a kiter on some encounters (just not the kiter you meant earlier, I mean kiting the flames on Sabetha doesn't have much to do with your melee traps)

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Ok, I have to ask at this point: what is your definition of a well?

My primary concern here is about traps, not wells. Let's not roam too far off topic 🙂 My definition of a trap is made pretty clear I hope, and it doesn't have much issues with range of the skill.

Edit: if you like defining skill categories, tell me the difference between Wells, Concecrations and Spirit weapons and why should it matter anything in designing other skill types 😛

Edited November 13, 2022 by eldrevo.1746

[ardhikaizecson.3697]

Longbow 2 shoots 3 arrow instead of 1, just like Warrior longbow.