Pets & Balance Philosophy - Minimizing Bad Choices, Power Budget and general lack of clarity.

[Ranys.4028]

I know Anet, I'm opening up an old and very big can of worms here, but if you want to stand by the philosophy that you posted, now is the time to start working on this.
I started playing ranger since I like pet classes. Some pets make noticeable impact. Most don't. Quite a few are depressingly underwhelming.

I'm not asking for a full pet rebalanced in the near future. I know this is going to take time and effort that is better spent elsewhere in many cases. It's not like we don't have good pet-choices right now. Rather, I'd like you to consider updating the older or underwhelming pets one at a time so that our choices expand.



 




The newer pets, from HoT onwards, often find some kind of niche in the major game modes, but even then there are exceptions.
I'll start of with the pets that are more unique and then tackle the rest mostly by category. Any of the unique ones that I don't mention are the ones I obviously think have found a place in one of the game-modes.



Also, I will sometimes be referring to Mukluk's recent testing on ranger-pet DPS for some of my points.



So let's get this started:

The unique cases:
Phoenix, Fire Wyvern:
These two are totally different pets, but they have a common problem: They're too kitten clunky to use.
They are visually pleasing and I wish it was also a joy to use them in game-play, so I could look at them and their awesome animations more often.
Gale Breath and Consuming Flame are both very long animations that make the pet somewhat stationary.
Often, the payoff for using these abilities will be lacking, because it takes so long to use them, often the target will already be dead or have moved.
Adding to that, Consuming Flames fire field shows, against a normal players intuition, not there when you start to see the skills flames, but only when the animation has run it's full course(about 8 seconds).
If these skills fit in better with GW2s typical flow of combat where things happen very quickly, their potential cleave damage would probably be justified from the Power Budget viewpoint.
Adding to that, their Wing Buffets are on ability slots that are not controllable by the player(unless playing untamed this is the one time I'll mention it in this post but it is relevant for other cases too), and also seem slow and clunky. Wing Buffet also have a bug when it's used as the merged Soulbeast version, putting the other class mechanic (F1-5, yes, even Eternal Bond) on a 1 second cool-down after cast.



I don't think the Wing Buffets(apart from the merged version bug) even need work. It's just that together with their F2s, it makes these pets feel so clunky that they're not fun to play with.
 




Wallow: (I'm sorry, do you belong to the Hog category? No. No you don't. And I'm glad for that. I'll elaborate when we get to the hogs later.)



There isn't much bad things I have to say about the Wallow, but please tell me Wallow, what is your purpose?, so much condi in your kit, but you're supportive?
I just don't know how to find a place for you in my menagerie.
It is also one of the worst offenders for underwhelming Soulbeast F1 abilities.
So lets have this short intermission: It feels like one of those buttons you might press when everything else is on cooldown and even then you wonder if it was damage efficient? Should you just have used 2 auto-attacks instead? The answer is probably yes.
How to fix it? 3x the damage, 3 Times the cool-down? That's what I'd do to at least make these low-effort fodder abilities feel like they have an impact.



Anyway, back to the pets:

Moa Category:
Apart from the Red Moa being used in power builds, these grounded birds are just wholly underwhelming, and like many core pets, their F2 effects are just horribly outdated.
Moa damage, according to Mukluks tests, is at the very low end of the spectrum. That could be acceptable, if their F2 abilities had impact.
Intermission, Pet Concentration & Expertise: The problem is, Condi and Boon duration from pets can hardly be buffed by player choice. We have hardly any ways to give pets concentration. 16% each from Nature Magic(baseline: Lingering Magic) and Wilderness Survival (choose: Taste for Danger, let's just pretend it's 16%, I don't want to get into that mess right now.)
In both cases, the base duration of pet condis and boons are so small that the fraction gained through these traits feels like literally nothing.
Back to the moas.
Tell me, Anet, when would I ever use a blue Moa? Give me a reason to use it. Please! If I want protection up-time. Turtle is actually better for that. Even though Turtle's main use-case is projectile blocking. Which makes the turtle infinitely more fun to play then the blue Moa will ever be in it's current form.
Pink Moa was once used as a second CC-pet together with Electric Wyvern, but those times have been over since Rock Gazelle came with PoF.
White Moa, refer to my opinion about pet-Expertise.
What do Moa's bring to the table in exchange for being so underwhelming? Harmonic Cry? That actually kinda powerful heal ability that will be cast at the mercy of pet-AI at some point? Hopefully?
Maybe this could actually find a niche with Heal Untamed (no, I'm not joking), but there is like four if cases before that could work: If Fervent Force actually worked on the regular pet F1-F3 abilities, not just their unleashed versions. If there were less barriers to the usage. Like the abilities range (240), the fact that it doesn't have any range indicators. The fact that heal-untamed relies on Fervent Force actually properly triggering, which I think it still doesn't on many bosses? Anyway, just one idea for something that is currently outside of the meta, but could be a very fun legitimate use case for Moas, if the kinks are worked out a little.

Bears:
Black and Brown bear find some niches. Handkite and condi-clear. Though I'm sometimes asked if I still live in 2015 if I use a brown-bear for condi clear. It's still viable 🙂
The other bears suffer from the same problems I've already talked about in the Moa section.
+ F1 Section from Wallow, boring 0-impact fodder ability.

Cats:
We all know Anet loves cats. I guess that's reflected in the Wildcats (at least now after the age-old quickness bug has been fixed on them), since they have some of the highest damage.
But it's really only the Sand Lion and White Tiger that find uses these days.
Normal Tiger was once the group's Fury Provider, but that boon is so ubiquitous these days, we'll never have a need for the Tiger to provide it, and even though it's called "Furious Pounce", unlike the other cat pounces, it has no leap-finisher? Why?
Even the Cheetahs Savannah Strike has one. But since we're here, why the hell is it 2x4seconds swiftness? I get that it likely has to do with being applied when the 2 different strikes from the ability happen, but couldn't it just be 1x8 seconds? It would be much clearer that way, It's the only time I've seen one ability applies 2 stacks of swiftness.
Anyway, the other cats? Just absolutely lame and outdated. Go back to where I talked about condi and boon duration in the moa section.
+ F1 Section from Wallow, boring 0-impact fodder ability.




Dogs:
I really wish dogs were better.
The Wolf can be annoying in PvP/WvW in the hands of an expert, but usually the same can be done better by another pet, and sometimes they can find some use with Soulbeast merge. Having 2 leap-finishers does have uses.
I still feel like they could use some love.
Same as in the moa section about condies and boons.
The Hyena especially makes me sad, because I feel like Hyena + Allie should be the max damage pet-option, or at least somewhere close to it?

Drakes:
They have a blast finisher... that's kinda cool and could be useful, if it was generally under the rangers control.
They are otherwise outdated in the same way that I have already mentioned.
Slow cast times feel clunky, applying one simple condition... there is just nothing special here.

Devourers:
Oh, my heart weeps. This species is so kitten, cool... and so kitten useless. 4 second cast-time on rending barbs? What's this joke?
Barely do any damage. Devourer Retreat is an ability that is absolutely useless on pets, and using it's merged version also feels so bad it makes me cringe.

Birds:
They have a bit of a niche for WvW roamers and maybe in PvP, their dash for merged Soulbeasts is incredibly good, but unmerged, you need to keep a good eye on their health.
They're quite snappy when it comes to cast-time and their damage isn't too bad, but we again have the problem of very underwhelming F2 abilities.

Spiders:
There is nothing uniquely bad here, all the problems have already been mentioned. Low damage, they're underwhelming and boring.

Hogs:
Ok, first, why don't I consider the Wallow a hog, even though it's slabdab in the middle of the category? No Forage, different Slb-Merged abilities.
The hogs, arn't bad... if you're playing Soulbeast. In fact they have phenomenal CC and I have seen them used to great effect for locking down enemies.
Warthog has been used in Condi Builds for quite a while.
But oh my god, they're also a sign for just how little attention is being paid to ranger-pets.
In the games lifetime, their F2 ability(Forage) has been updated exactly once, to reduce cooldown from 40 to 30 seconds.
Not like that helped it anything, because forage is so random, that in all my time of playing this game, I've only found a use for it once.
Back when boon-share Chrono was a thing, I'd sometimes use the time before fights to dig for plasma to give it to the Chrono. Even then, it was rarely ever helpful, since they can only be held for about 30 seconds, before the item de-spawns, even if you're currently holding it in your hands.
Usually, the party just wants to go in when they're ready and not wait for some funny ranger to dig up a ball of magical goop on random chance.
Oh, by the way, want to know something funny: Egg! There you go dear ranger. Gain some initiative.
I have some vague memories, that might well be wrong, of all classes having initiative sometime during the games beta.
Even if that is really true, half of this eggs use has been irrelevant for the ranger for at least 10 years, or maybe since forever.
Don't get me wrong. Forage could be fun with some dev-work, even using it as more of a silly gimmik. If the F2 flipped after using forage into the item that the hog-pet found, so that the ranger can use it a second time to activate, without having to pick anything up, it would already fix the biggest problem that Forage presents: It's currently an item-bundle and so when picking it up, it keeps you from using your weapon skills.

Forage represents just how neglected the original ranger-pets are. This ability will never fit into the flow of combat. There is absolutely no clarity of purpose to it.

Thank you for listening to my TED talk.
Edited October 30, 2022 by Ranys.4028
Rock Gazelle came with PoF, not EoD.

[Beddo.1907]

15 hours ago, Ranys.4028 said:

Rock Gazelle came with EoD.

Ok.
Aside for this, good points.

[Ranys.4028]

Thanks for catching that. Fixed.

[anduriell.6280]

Pets need to connect attacks on targets: Mukluks dps test is kind of useless if you think in pvp modes.

He should have run the same but with the moving golem. That would be a better example. 
 

aside from that pets need so much more than just a numbers dance. All of that already explained and posted all over this subforums. 

[Mell.4873]

PVE

They all have uses its only if you want to do a best in slot comparison for Power or Condition DPS there will always be a best pet.

• The Moa (F1) is the only way to heal Spirits outside of Druid and supportive Merge Skill.
• Spiders can be very strong for a shortbow Poison build on Soulbeast.
• Canines have a 50% uptime of cripple so its far easier to trigger Predator's Onslaught.
• Tiger can trigger Remorseless every 10 seconds

Even Fire Wyvern and Phoenix can be used for tagging since all their skills can AoE which if you know anything about Open World farming is amazing since you want more AoE's not more powerful ones. (March Drake is also amazing here too)

PVP

Yeah anything goes here

Edited October 30, 2022 by Mell.4873

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

Easy fixes for a few pets:

 

1. Fire Wyvern: make the F2 not take a literal lifetime to finish casting and crank up that damage, maybe even that fire field lifetime to give support rangers (i.e. full core ranger if you really feel like doing that or support druid) some blast/leap potential. Use the current Phoenix F2 animation if you have to, the Phoenix already stole it from the minor wyverns anyways. A good hybrid damage option would be nice, and I'd love to be able to run a "dragon-tamer druid" with double wyverns for that sweet, sweet RP value.

2. Phoenix: make the F2 a single line blast similar to the IBS Special Action Keys. Reduce the cooldown and damage by 2/3 (ish) to compensate for the faster cast time, which would also be lowered by 2/3 (ish). The Phoenix is the lowest health pet in the game, it should be blasting damage. Other useful changes would be making the Charge skill (where it rushes around leaving bombs in its wake) use a set amount of bombs, dropping them with increasing frequency relative to the distance to the target. Let's assume 5, then if it's at full distance it will drop 5 bombs in a set path, but if it's already at the target it will drop all 5 at it's feet at once.

3. Wallow- rev up that damage. That's it. Crank those numbers. Wallow could be a great option if the numbers just didn't suck.

4. Siege Turtle- while not mentioned by you, swap Snap and the Jade Cannon skill. Swapping these means the turtle will less likely run away when you press F2 even if it's on passive, since it would try to use it's autoattack on its own after using the bubble, which could lead to you dropping it at a bad spot since the bubble doesn't move. Also, increase the duration of the bubble if it won't move, or even if it is changed to move increase it, just less so.

5. Drakes: again, numbers changes.

6. Porcines (hogs): damage increases.

7. Rock Gazelle: better AI. It takes the deer a lifetime to line up to hit things.

 

A lot of pets in GW2 suffer from what I like to call "AI innacuracy". They'll either miss because of the cast time, or miss time their skills because that's just the automatic rotation. Devourers suffer from this primarily- their Devourer Retreat skill is literally useless in instanced PvE content. Giving pets better AI (and more player choices, i.e. the ability to make your pet not cast specific skills at the very least in pve) would give pet oriented ranger builds a bit more complexity while also hopefully alleviating some of these problems for specific pets.

 

 

[Sansar.1302]

Remove the pet from core ranger, alot of changes will need to be done as well.

 

Rework all ranger e-specs and have ONE of them as pet spec

 

[InsaneQR.7412]

Tbh i think all pets should have these abilities:

Gap closer: A way to connect. Smokescale has a fantastic one for example. Could also be a pull, a leap, a direct teleport behind the target etc etc.

Hard CC: Stun, Daze, fear, Taunt, lauch, pull you name it. One hard CC for all pet families would do wonders to make them more useful.

Utility skill: Heal, Cleanse, Stunbreak, Boonrip, Blast finisher etc etc. Something you can pull when you need it.

Archetype Skill: a skill that focusses on the roles of support, tank, power damage, condi damage or utility.

The auto attacks should just deal decent damage across the board. Nothing mind boggling but also nothing horrible.

Lastly i think rangers should control all pet skills per default. And pet stats should scale from ranger stats. This would prevent the druid bunker issues from the past but also allows for better pet gameplay.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

And pet stats should scale from ranger stats.

They'd probably give all pets phoenix stats if the player doesn't run defensive stats and all pets become unuseable in PvP/WvW ...

Generally the whole idea of more dmg stats = less defensive stats doesn't work for pets, because they can't compensate for a lack of defensive stats with "gameplay" while at the same time offensive stats don't actually impact their dmg a whole lot, it's more about what skills they have aviable.

Edited October 31, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[jaif.3518]

The problem is it's pet-by-pet, tweak by tweak.  About the only universal change I can think of is to make pet's ranged attacks much faster so they land more easily.  Outside of that, you really need to go through the laborious process of changing each pet one at a time.

 

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

19 minutes ago, jaif.3518 said:

The problem is it's pet-by-pet, tweak by tweak.  About the only universal change I can think of is to make pet's ranged attacks much faster so they land more easily.  Outside of that, you really need to go through the laborious process of changing each pet one at a time.

 

It's not inherently each pet to start off, though.

 

Drakes as a whole could become straight power machines- their crit damage might need to be lowered, but their baseline power damage could shoot up, to better differentiate themselves from Felines being crit machines. Devourers could gain huge condi bonuses, separating them from other DPS pets as condi fight options. Bears are kind of stuck, maybe some kind of damage siphon on their base kit like the Guard skill for nearby allies would be useful, since increasing their offenses removes the balancing that they had due to their massive health pool. Canines could become more utility oriented, having 1 offensive support portion and 1 defensive support option on their f2, such as the Alpine Wolf's Chilling Howl giving resolution in addition to its current effects, and just copy and paste that line of thinking to every canine. Birds could have fast hitting and cooling down skills to make them bustier, but done in a way that causes them to fall off in sustain oriented situations.

 

Most of what they need to do is tied to families and not species of pets.