Resurrection possible in GW2?

[Guy.9207]

"Death is permanent in Guild Wars 2."

Okay but listen. What if we have this system where your body is reconstructed and your soul yanked away before it's taken to the Underworld, allowing you to basically be respawned at a Waypoint, only to be charged coins later? What if it only happens if you are subscribed to an Asuran company specialized in resurrection?

Does this sound familiar? Because Waypoints and Jade Teleporters work similarly. You just get 'killed' and reconstructed by the contraptions, and likely charged for the travel cost. Makes sense right?

RIGHT?

[Fueki.4753]

no

Players respawning at waypoints is only a game mechanic, that's not rooted in lore.

Waypoints only exist to transport matter. If the matter is dead, it stays dead. Also, it's magic tech that likely actually pulls matter from one space to another, so no deconstruction and reconstruction should take place.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, NeverLoseGuy.3894 said:

"Death is permanent in Guild Wars 2."

Okay but listen. What if we have this system where your body is reconstructed and your soul yanked away before it's taken to the Underworld, allowing you to basically be respawned at a Waypoint, only to be charged coins later? What if it only happens if you are subscribed to an Asuran company specialized in resurrection?

Does this sound familiar? Because Waypoints and Jade Teleporters work similarly. You just get 'killed' and reconstructed by the contraptions, and likely charged for the travel cost. Makes sense right?

RIGHT?

Yanking a soul == killing so...

That would just kill the person.

And maybe make an undead.

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

no

Players respawning at waypoints is only a game mechanic, that's not rooted in lore.

Waypoints only exist to transport matter. If the matter is dead, it stays dead. Also, it's magic tech that likely actually pulls matter from one space to another, so no deconstruction and reconstruction should take place.

Regarding the deconstruction/reconstruction, OP is referring to EoD dialogue about the jade tech teleportation pads. Can't find it on wiki, but there's an NPC that mentions that the jade tech teleporters work by breaking down the body into molecules and then reconstruct the body on the other end.

 

EDIT: Found it, was in story not open world...

Xunlai Jade Administrator: Ah, come to see the incredible miracle of instantaneously transiting your corporal self from one point to another? Then look no further, for this is our fines example of applied jade technology!

PC: What's different from normal teleporters...like waypoints or asura gates?

Xunlai Jade Administrator: Everything! Other teleporters use arcane methodologies, whereas jade tech harnesses the power imbued into the jade to break down your body, store it, transmit it, and reassemble it on the other side!

PC: Wait, this thing...deconstructs me?

Xunlai Jade Administrator: Yes, but Xunlai Jade would like to remind its users that there is nothing to fear. The tragic circumstances of our original translocator devices are a thing of the past. Our teleporters are perfected.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Scalacious.4139]

12 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Xunlai Jade Administrator: Everything! Other teleporters use arcane methodologies, whereas jade tech harnesses the power imbued into the jade to break down your body, store it, transmit it, and reassemble it on the other side!

This implies that it is possible to clone living being with jade tech teleporters.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yanking a soul == killing so...

That would just kill the person.

And maybe make an undead.

Regarding the deconstruction/reconstruction, OP is referring to EoD dialogue about the jade tech teleportation pads. Can't find it on wiki, but there's an NPC that mentions that the jade tech teleporters work by breaking down the body into molecules and then reconstruct the body on the other end.

 

EDIT: Found it, was in story not open world...

Xunlai Jade Administrator: Ah, come to see the incredible miracle of instantaneously transiting your corporal self from one point to another? Then look no further, for this is our fines example of applied jade technology!

PC: What's different from normal teleporters...like waypoints or asura gates?

Xunlai Jade Administrator: Everything! Other teleporters use arcane methodologies, whereas jade tech harnesses the power imbued into the jade to break down your body, store it, transmit it, and reassemble it on the other side!

PC: Wait, this thing...deconstructs me?

Xunlai Jade Administrator: Yes, but Xunlai Jade would like to remind its users that there is nothing to fear. The tragic circumstances of our original translocator devices are a thing of the past. Our teleporters are perfected.

Never. Using. Those. Again.

[Zok.4956]

19 hours ago, NeverLoseGuy.3894 said:

"Death is permanent in Guild Wars 2."

No, it isn't. Not for the PC and not for most NPCs.

Or, as I explained my little son, some years ago: "He's not dead, just sleeping. Look, now he's awake again and runs around."

 

[Zok.4956]

14 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Everything! Other teleporters use arcane methodologies, whereas jade tech harnesses the power imbued into the jade to break down your body, store it, transmit it, and reassemble it on the other side!

This means, killing the person/being at the old position, transmitting the data/molecules to the new position and then create an exact copy at the new position. And because the new person is a 100% copy, including all the memories (before the break down happened) he/she thinks to be the same person that was being teleported.

And what about the soul/mind (or whatever you call it)? It is established in GW2 that beings (can) exist without a physical, corporal body. So there is a mind/soul and a separation of mind/soul and the physical body the mind/soul uses.

What happens to the mind/soul of a person that is being teleported (disassembled on one side and reassembled on the other side)?

Is the soul also teleported or is a teleported person just a soulless body?

 

P.S.  In the real world, the existence of a soul is neither proven nor disproved and is a matter of personal belief.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

3 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

This means, killing the person/being at the old position, transmitting the data/molecules to the new position and then create an exact copy at the new position. And because the new person is a 100% copy, including all the memories (before the break down happened) he/she thinks to be the same person that was being teleported.

And what about the soul/mind (or whatever you call it)? It is established in GW2 that beings (can) exist without a physical, corporal body. So there is a mind/soul and a separation of mind/soul and the physical body the mind/soul uses.

What happens to the mind/soul of a person that is being teleported (disassembled on one side and reassembled on the other side)?

Is the soul also teleported or is a teleported person just a soulless body?

 

P.S.  In the real world, the existence of a soul is neither proven nor disproved and is a matter of personal belief.

Portal tech is based upon Stargate, and it doesn't kill you like in Star Trek. You're just transformed and its kind of like going to sleep, you just wake up on the other side. Saying its killing you is like saying people die because they have heart attacks and come back with CPR. Loss of consciousness doesn't mean death.

 

Its also not a copy because its not creating energy only transferring it. You're still the exact same mater after coming out the other side, just having temporarily been broken down then reassembled.

 

The Star Trek method is technically impossible as destroying the original would produce as much energy as the sun (since the released energy has to go somewhere), but the Stargate method, which the game is based on, is theoretically possible as the energy pattern is preserved.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Scalacious.4139 said:

This implies that it is possible to clone living being with jade tech teleporters.

I disagree due to the proof of souls existing in GW. It might be possible to create a duplicate body but that body would probably be just a corpse or effectively an undead without a soul in it.

2 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

This means, killing the person/being at the old position, transmitting the data/molecules to the new position and then create an exact copy at the new position. And because the new person is a 100% copy, including all the memories (before the break down happened) he/she thinks to be the same person that was being teleported.

And what about the soul/mind (or whatever you call it)? It is established in GW2 that beings (can) exist without a physical, corporal body. So there is a mind/soul and a separation of mind/soul and the physical body the mind/soul uses.

What happens to the mind/soul of a person that is being teleported (disassembled on one side and reassembled on the other side)?

Is the soul also teleported or is a teleported person just a soulless body?

 

P.S.  In the real world, the existence of a soul is neither proven nor disproved and is a matter of personal belief.

It's entirely possible that the jade technicians are incorrect about the whole "breaking down, storing, and recreating" thing too. Or that through some magitechnobabble, the "breaking down" doesn't kill the individual.

 

The dialogue really reads like sci-fi with horror-undertones, much like a lot of EoD reading like sci-fi rather than the high fantasy it was pre-EoD, and primarily reminds me of the 2005 DOOM film which had a similar function of the teleporter (including the whole "if it messes up you'll find half your body showing up elsewhere" trope).
 

Using the sci-fi tropes, the people aren't dying at all in the narrative, but the same concepts opens philosophical debates (irl and/or in the narrative) of how one defines the self and life/death.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

36 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Portal tech is based upon Stargate, and it doesn't kill you like in Star Trek. You're just transformed and its kind of like going to sleep, you just wake up on the other side. Saying its killing you is like saying people die because they have heart attacks and come back with CPR. Loss of consciousness doesn't mean death.

 

Its also not a copy because its not creating energy only transferring it. You're still the exact same mater after coming out the other side, just having temporarily been broken down then reassembled.

 

The Star Trek method is technically impossible as destroying the original would produce as much energy as the sun (since the released energy has to go somewhere), but the Stargate method, which the game is based on, is theoretically possible as the energy pattern is preserved.

Stargate.....I could live with the Stargate method....if I could get assurances that it does indeed use the the Stargate method instead of the Star Trek method....I really despise the Star Trek method. 😣

[Zok.4956]

40 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

The Star Trek method is technically impossible as destroying the original would produce as much energy as the sun (since the released energy has to go somewhere), but the Stargate method, which the game is based on, is theoretically possible as the energy pattern is preserved.

 

This is a bold statement when comparing two, with our actual knowledge impossible in the real world, ways of transport matter faster than the speed of light.

 

38 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's entirely possible that the jade technicians are incorrect about the whole "breaking down, storing, and recreating" thing too. Or that through some magitechnobabble, the "breaking down" doesn't kill the individual.

That's quite possible. After all, GW2 is a fantasy game with a few sci-fi elements. 😉

 

[Zok.4956]

6 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I really despise the Star Trek method. 😣

Just like Dr. Leonard H. McCoy. 😎

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

41 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Stargate.....I could live with the Stargate method....if I could get assurances that it does indeed use the the Stargate method instead of the Star Trek method....I really despise the Star Trek method. 😣

Asura gates do use the Stargate method based on the descriptions from Ghosts of Ascalon and Edge of Destiny novels and various asura NPCs. Normal magic portals too. They're all based around the idea of making a wormhole in spacetime, for all intents and purposes - connect location A to location B by poking a hole. Season 4 even brings this up scientifically with tearing spacetime, though its done as a gag the implications are holy-kitten-that's-scary.

 

Waypoints and jade tech teleporters, however.... Well, the latter are described as the Star Trek method (more or less), and given we see no "hole" to walk through for waypoints, might function similarly.

Both of these methods are established as having a much higher injury rate, too.

 

More curious to me is where more mundane magic teleports like thief shadowstepping functions. I would argue it's hyper-speed-of-light-movement, and not actual "teleporting".

Edited November 9, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Zok.4956]

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

More curious to me is where more mundane magic teleports like thief shadowstepping functions. I would argue it's hyper-speed-of-light-movement, and not actual "teleporting".

I would argue they are just highly skilled to move so fast and unnoticed that we think they use teleports. Like a real-life magician or pickpocket who can move their hands so fast we can barely see them with the naked eye.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

I would argue they are just highly skilled to move so fast and unnoticed that we think they use teleports. Like a real-life magician or pickpocket who can move their hands so fast we can barely see them with the naked eye.

Hmm, my main counterpoint would be in Season 2, Caithe uses shadowstepping to take herself and Faolain up the side of the building to the third floor in seconds, scaling completely vertical surfaces in the process.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

16 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

I would argue they are just highly skilled to move so fast and unnoticed that we think they use teleports. Like a real-life magician or pickpocket who can move their hands so fast we can barely see them with the naked eye.

Unlikely, Guild Wars has always implied that Shadow Stepping is a form of teleportation, something derived from actual magic and now slight of hand or mere physical skill. As an example the GW1 Lore document An Empire Divided states that Vizu was able to use shadow stepping to stay ahead of the Jade Wind for half a minute, until she ran out of energy. I highly doubt mere running would allow someone to out run a Magical Storm of Death© that's moving with the speed of an explosion.

[Zok.4956]

12 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Hmm, my main counterpoint would be in Season 2, Caithe uses shadowstepping to take herself and Faolain up the side of the building to the third floor in seconds, scaling completely vertical surfaces in the process.

 

20 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Unlikely, Guild Wars has always implied that Shadow Stepping is a form of teleportation, something derived from actual magic and now slight of hand or mere physical skill.

 

Ok, I stand corrected. 

[Urud.4925]

22 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Portal tech is based upon Stargate, and it doesn't kill you like in Star Trek. You're just transformed and its kind of like going to sleep, you just wake up on the other side. Saying its killing you is like saying people die because they have heart attacks and come back with CPR. Loss of consciousness doesn't mean death.

 

Its also not a copy because its not creating energy only transferring it. You're still the exact same mater after coming out the other side, just having temporarily been broken down then reassembled.

 

The Star Trek method is technically impossible as destroying the original would produce as much energy as the sun (since the released energy has to go somewhere), but the Stargate method, which the game is based on, is theoretically possible as the energy pattern is preserved.

While the Star Trek teleport based on a destructive scanning of a body and transmission is impossible because the human being will die in the process (you might teleport objects, but not people), the Stargate method (creation of a wormhole) is also impossible for the reason you said about Star Trek: you'd need more energy than the one produced by the sun.

There is an interesting article, explaining why all the 3 methods are impossible:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/05/is-teleportation-possible.html

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

6 hours ago, Urud.4925 said:

While the Star Trek teleport based on a destructive scanning of a body and transmission is impossible because the human being will die in the process (you might teleport objects, but not people), the Stargate method (creation of a wormhole) is also impossible for the reason you said about Star Trek: you'd need more energy than the one produced by the sun.

There is an interesting article, explaining why all the 3 methods are impossible:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/05/is-teleportation-possible.html

I regularly study quantum mechanics and this article just makes a whole bunch of assumptions with very little science involved. There's already theorised solutions to alot of these things, which while theoretical and unproven and unattainable by current technology, are similar to many other concepts in the past that were just as impossible when they were theorised but did become possible given enough time.

 

One big red flag of the article is saying time travel isn't possible when there are multiple theories that could result in it not only being possible, but highly likely or even unavoidable.

 

The first rule of science is that "impossible" isn't a valid answer to any question, because it disregards the very principles upon which science is built, and anyone who says that something is impossible isn't a true scientist. Its like a doctor from the past saying a disease can't be cured, though a great many have been.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Urud.4925]

Yeah, never say never. When I studied telecommunications engineering, I remember a professor that said "UMTS are impossible. They'll never make it!" and here we are, far beyond that.

Let's say "impossible" for what we currently know/have, like the calculation for the bandwidth needed to transmit a whole human body before he dies. Maybe one day we'll be able to transmit a lot of data super fast, anywhere, wireless (if we all don't die before of kitten for the antennas). If one day we'll discover a way to put a sun into a battery, for personal use, then we would be able to go to work creating a wormhole. I hope the smart working will become a common option before though.

[Zok.4956]

2 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I regularly study quantum mechanics

I find it fascinating, that quantum physics uses a lot of ideas and concepts and wording that has similarities with psychology and  quantum physics says a lot about how we think and how our mind tries to give order and structure with our models of reality without ever knowing how reality really "is" - thats why some people call it "quantum psychology".

 

2 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

One big red flag of the article is saying time travel isn't possible when there are multiple theories that could result in it not only being possible, but highly likely or even unavoidable.

It is OK, if this is what you believe.

But time travel is only a theory, an idea. With our current knowledge it is not possible.

There is also an (somehow surprising) interesting idea that time itself does not exist and time is just a construct our mind has invented (a model of reality) to give structure to the flow of increasing entropy that we experience with our senses and because this entropy only flows in one direction, we can not go "back" and therefore we can not travel back in time.

So, thinking that time travel will be possible in the future or will never be possible in the future is just a matter of believe.

But when I look at all the hordes of time travelers from the near and far future with their fancy gadgets sitting next to me in pubs and cafes, it becomes clear that time travel has to exist. 😉

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Zok.4956

[EdwinLi.1284]

Lore wise, the Commander only gets knocked out and a waypoint emergency teleport him/her to safety before they can actually die. 

 

Only time he/she actually dies is in that one moment in PoF. 

 

This works since by lore death is permanent now due to events before GW2. Sadly NPCs are not as lucky as the Commander to have emergency extraction by Waypoints if they are near death.

Edited November 11, 2022 by EdwinLi.1284