Dear ANet: It's Not Too Late!

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Cal Cohen.2358 @Double Tap

Thanks for your work on the 11/29 patch and the transparency with which you've approached the proposed changes--it is very much appreciated!

 

I know Warrior received many changes in the October patch and that you probably don't have much bandwidth to do more in the Nov patch.  Nonetheless, I want to suggest 2 simple changes that would go a long ways toward making some of Warrior's underperforming specs better.  Note: these changes have PvP/WvW in mind, but I think they would be appropriate in all game modes.

 

1.) Make Berserk Mode cost 10 adrenaline instead of 30.

Berserker continues to struggle in competitive modes.  There are a lot of reasons for that, but one of the most serious is the difficulty it has in accessing its core mechanic.  In PvE, this is less of a problem, as it is easy to whale on mobs with axes or land a headbutt to get the 30 adrenaline needed to enter Berserk.  But in PvP/WvW, it is far harder to generate that adrenaline, a reality that usually forces you to take something like signet of Fury (or some other suboptimal skill, like To The Limit or Blood Reckoning) to generate the adrenaline.  This hampers both build diversity (since you have to account for the adrenaline generation somehow) and build effectiveness (as your limited utilities are saddled by suboptimal choices).  Reducing the adrenaline cost of Berserk Mode would be a simple change that would boost the effectiveness of Berserker by making B mode more accessible.

 

2.) Put stability on Triggerguard.

Bladesworn has been nuked into the ground in competitive modes.  It only gets one burst to begin with, and has to channel that burst for up to 2.5s in the middle of a warzone without any readily available source of stability.  This is a recipe for disaster.  Anecdotally, I have observed far fewer BS since the October patch and the few I have seen (and when I play it myself) have been markedly less effective.  Adding a single stack of stability (3s) to Triggerguard would provide at least a small measure of protection and help BS execute its main mechanic.  Given all the other tradeoffs inherent in BS's design, I feel like this is a small ask.  I'd encourage you to consider reducing Triggerguard's CD to 40-50s, too, but I'd be happy even with the stab only.

 

Thank you for considering it!

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 @Double Tap

Thanks for your work on the 11/29 patch and the transparency with which you've approached the proposed changes--it is very much appreciated!

 

I know Warrior received many changes in the October patch and that you probably don't have much bandwidth to do more in the Nov patch.  Nonetheless, I want to suggest 2 simple changes that would go a long ways toward making some of Warrior's underperforming specs better.  Note: these changes have PvP/WvW in mind, but I think they would be appropriate in all game modes.

 

1.) Make Berserk Mode cost 10 adrenaline instead of 30.

Berserker continues to struggle in competitive modes.  There are a lot of reasons for that, but one of the most serious is the difficulty it has in accessing its core mechanic.  In PvE, this is less of a problem, as it is easy to whale on mobs with axes or land a headbutt to get the 30 adrenaline needed to enter Berserk.  But in PvP/WvW, it is far harder to generate that adrenaline, a reality that usually forces you to take something like signet of Fury (or some other suboptimal skill, like To The Limit or Blood Reckoning) to generate the adrenaline.  This hampers both build diversity (since you have to account for the adrenaline generation somehow) and build effectiveness (as your limited utilities are saddled by suboptimal choices).  Reducing the adrenaline cost of Berserk Mode would be a simple change that would boost the effectiveness of Berserker by making B mode more accessible.

 

2.) Put stability on Triggerguard.

Bladesworn has been nuked into the ground in competitive modes.  It only gets one burst to begin with, and has to channel that burst for up to 2.5s in the middle of a warzone without any readily available source of stability.  This is a recipe for disaster.  Anecdotally, I have observed far fewer BS since the October patch and the few I have seen (and when I play it myself) have been markedly less effective.  Adding a single stack of stability (3s) to Triggerguard would provide at least a small measure of protection and help BS execute its main mechanic.  Given all the other tradeoffs inherent in BS's design, I feel like this is a small ask.  I'd encourage you to consider reducing Triggerguard's CD to 40-50s, too, but I'd be happy even with the stab only.

 

Thank you for considering it!

 

Tbh I'd be fine if they just made berserk a burst skill again so it could proc zerk power/had a little stab like before so I can use it like a parry in tandem with Feel No Pain.

 

The problem for me isn't low access to zerk mode, its a combination of two things:

 

1.) The damage provided by power weapons on zerker is not significant enough to down enemies, even if you've outplayed them and hit them in between cooldowns, because berserkers power now requires you spend adrenaline outside of zerk mode for access to the buff beyond T1, and therefore is nonexistent when you'd actually need it (by the time you hit t4 and have enough adrenaline for bersek mode, the opponent is dead or has killed you.  If they avoided you,  no t4 anyway. )

 

2.) The reintroduction of core burst skills did not address sustain issues on power variants, and the reworking of berserk into an instant skill made it weaker, because the fractional stability from the old version made it less likely you'd be cced immediately after berserk, and forced to waste feel no pain.

(Not to mention they replaced all the sustain traits with weaker versions when they did this.)

 

I don't care about going into zerk mode more. I care about the exploitability of the activation,  and the synergy of that activation with relevant traits. There was no reason to make berserk a rage skill, condi zerker didn't need it and you crippled power zerker further for synergy with two traits that only condi zerk uses.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

56 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Tbh I'd be fine if they just made berserk a burst skill again so it could proc zerk power/had a little stab like before so I can use it like a parry in tandem with Feel No Pain.

 

The problem for me isn't low access to zerk mode, its a combination of two things:

 

1.) The damage provided by power weapons on zerker is not significant enough to down enemies, even if you've outplayed them and hit them in between cooldowns, because berserkers power now requires you spend adrenaline outside of zerk mode for access to the buff beyond T1, and therefore is nonexistent when you'd actually need it (by the time you hit t4 and have enough adrenaline for bersek mode, the opponent is dead or has killed you.  If they avoided you,  no t4 anyway. )

 

2.) The reintroduction of core burst skills did not address sustain issues on power variants, and the reworking of berserk into an instant skill made it weaker, because the fractional stability from the old version made it less likely you'd be cced immediately after berserk, and forced to waste feel no pain.

(Not to mention they replaced all the sustain traits with weaker versions when they did this.)

 

I don't care about going into zerk mode more. I care about the exploitability of the activation,  and the synergy of that activation with relevant traits. There was no reason to make berserk a rage skill, condi zerker didn't need it and you crippled power zerker further for synergy with two traits that only condi zerk uses.

I don't disagree with you; Berserk mode was better as a burst skill.  Also, berserker's damage sucks right now; I can get as good (or nearly as good) dmg with Spellbreaker using the same gear. That part might get a little better once they fix bloody roar like they plan to in the Nov patch.

 

That said, the dmg alone won't make zerker viable. It wasn't viable before 10/4 and it won't be viable if that damage (or the functionality of berserk mode as a burst skill) is restored. 

 

Berserker's problems are many, but having most of its traits (esp for power builds) being tied to berserk mode plus the difficulty of getting into berserk mode on demand is definitely one the biggest. Signet of fury (or similar skill) address that, but then your utilities are overtaxed. Warrior already has far fewer buttons than other classes as well as big holes in it's kit that usually need to be filled with staple utilities like shake it off, endure pain, and bulls charge, so having to drop one of those slots for signet of fury is a big deal. And an unnecessary handicap.

 

I'm not saying that zerker will be fine if b mode only costs 10 adrenaline, but I guarantee you that it will take a step in the right direction. And at this point, that's all I'm looking for. What I really DON'T want to happen is for berserker and bladesworn to absolutely suck for the next 3 months or so until hopefully the next balance patch.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I don't disagree with you; Berserk mode was better as a burst skill.  Also, berserker's damage sucks right now; I can get as good (or nearly as good) dmg with Spellbreaker using the same gear. That part might get a little better once they fix bloody roar like they plan to in the Nov patch.

 

That said, the dmg alone won't make zerker viable. It wasn't viable before 10/4 and it won't be viable if that damage (or the functionality of berserk mode as a burst skill) is restored. 

 

Berserker's problems are many, but having most of its traits (esp for power builds) being tied to berserk mode plus the difficulty of getting into berserk mode on demand is definitely one the biggest. Signet of fury (or similar skill) address that, but then your utilities are overtaxed. Warrior already has far fewer buttons than other classes as well as big holes in it's kit that usually need to be filled with staple utilities like shake it off, endure pain, and bulls charge, so having to drop one of those slots for signet of fury is a big deal. And an unnecessary handicap.

 

I'm not saying that zerker will be fine if b mode only costs 10 adrenaline, but I guarantee you that it will take a step in the right direction. And at this point, that's all I'm looking for. What I really DON'T want to happen is for berserker and bladesworn to absolutely suck for the next 3 months or so until hopefully the next balance patch.

 

This is fair.

Not trying to imply I disagree with your suggestion, either. I'm willing to try that out; it might open up some avenues of play I can't quite see at the moment.  

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

This is fair.

Not trying to imply I disagree with your suggestion, either. I'm willing to try that out; it might open up some avenues of play I can't quite see at the moment.  

You're totally right, though: berserker needs it's damage back, too. I keep trying to make power zerker work but find I can do about the same level of damage (and do it more consistently) with SpB--and that has the advantage of FC for added CC and sustain. Why would anyone ever take zerker in such circumstances? Zerker needs to be the clear leader when it comes to DPS or it will always make more sense to play something else, be it SpB, rev, holo, etc.

 

It's tricky, though, because zerker can easily start one-shotting people if it's dmg gets buffed too much. ANet wisely seems to be trying to avoid that (tho why they still leave herald, vindicator, DH, and OWP soulbeast alone is beyond me). If they decide not to increase zerkers damage, they really need to give it better survivability tools or something...but that's a discussion for a different day.

 

In the meantime, if they won't increase the damage, they could at least improve access to the most damaging skills. That's what I'm hoping for in the proposed changes.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

To me:

If Berserk is to be a rage skill, then it should cost ZERO adrenaline. If it is going to require 30 Adrenaline and still be a rage skill, then they need to revisit what counts as using the profession mechanic skill(s) in regard to traits.

So, either 0 adrenaline cost or it procs the respective traits on use. Thats it.

And it would absolutely not be OP in the slightest for it to activate said traits without having to hit anything. It has a CD, but the CD doesn't start until you exit, so it is functionally a 30s CD skill.

For BSW they need to acknowledge that they kludged it up from the beginning and only further kludged it up to keep it going after release.

Flow Stabilizer: Needs to grant stability again.
Flickerstep: Needs a larger distance, 450 - 600 range.
Breakstep: Needs 900 range.
Blooming Fire: Needs the UW evade on land.
DT: Needs 25% movement speed that kneel is getting.
Overload Cartridges: This was bloat and clunk. Just make it into 1 skill that gives the buff and CCs the target.
TR: They are toying with what to do with this, kudos to them, but there is too much going on here. Just reduce the CDs on all the BSW ammo skills and have TR grant full flow instead of the ammo recharge.
DSM: Make it flickerstep in the direction input being pressed instead of evading backwards.

The traits themselves need work too, namely such the heavy focus on Ammo skills was bad design choice as it led to, as we all predicted it would in the beta, a skill spamming playstyle. They need to revisit the Master tier traits, with a focus on explosions instead, with appropriate CDs.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

40 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

To me:

If Berserk is to be a rage skill, then it should cost ZERO adrenaline. If it is going to require 30 Adrenaline and still be a rage skill, then they need to revisit what counts as using the profession mechanic skill(s) in regard to traits.

So, either 0 adrenaline cost or it procs the respective traits on use. Thats it.

And it would absolutely not be OP in the slightest for it to activate said traits without having to hit anything. It has a CD, but the CD doesn't start until you exit, so it is functionally a 30s CD skill.

For BSW they need to acknowledge that they kludged it up from the beginning and only further kludged it up to keep it going after release.

Flow Stabilizer: Needs to grant stability again.
Flickerstep: Needs a larger distance, 450 - 600 range.
Breakstep: Needs 900 range.
Blooming Fire: Needs the UW evade on land.
DT: Needs 25% movement speed that kneel is getting.
Overload Cartridges: This was bloat and clunk. Just make it into 1 skill that gives the buff and CCs the target.
TR: They are toying with what to do with this, kudos to them, but there is too much going on here. Just reduce the CDs on all the BSW ammo skills and have TR grant full flow instead of the ammo recharge.
DSM: Make it flickerstep in the direction input being pressed instead of evading backwards.

The traits themselves need work too, namely such the heavy focus on Ammo skills was bad design choice as it led to, as we all predicted it would in the beta, a skill spamming playstyle. They need to revisit the Master tier traits, with a focus on explosions instead, with appropriate CDs.

Yeah, BS needs a lot of work... Lots of design problems. However, despite all of that, it was still performing well (albeit obnoxiously) before they nerfed it into the ground. I'd love a serious rework of the spec, but in the meantime a teensy bit of stability would go a long way.

edit: those are good suggestions for BS, btw

Edited November 17, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Yeah, BS needs a lot of work... Lots of design problems. However, despite all of that, it was still performing well (albeit obnoxiously) before they nerfed it into the ground. I'd love a serious rework of the spec, but in the meantime a teensy bit of stability would go a long way.

edit: those are good suggestions for BS, btw

Tiny things that I would do now for it:

Flow Stabilizer getting back the stability
Blooming Fire getting the UW evade on land

Why? One is just a revert, that is easy. The other exists already, just in water, so the code is already there.

Those two would be immense QOL moves for BSW. The rest are just addressing the clunkiness of its design.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Tiny things that I would do now for it:

Flow Stabilizer getting back the stability
Blooming Fire getting the UW evade on land

Why? One is just a revert, that is easy. The other exists already, just in water, so the code is already there.

Those two would be immense QOL moves for BSW. The rest are just addressing the clunkiness of its design.

Those would be great, too. I just hope they do *something* so that BS isn't trash for the next 3 months or more.

[UNOwen.7132]

Bladesworns main issue remains that Gunsaber is just a really really terrible weaponset. Buffs should be focused on that. 1 needs a slight tune-up, 2 needs to have way more range and probably do something else, 3 is fine as is, 4 is probably fine as is, but I'd look into whether or not making it a full block over a projectile block is doable, and 5 needs to be faster, less clunky and have more range, and maybe evade too. That should make it functional again.

[TugboatSteve.3607]

To the Limit!

30 adrenaline

Headbutt

30 adrenaline

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 minutes ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

Use your 30 second heal to use your class mechanic

Land a slow, immensely telegraphed and short range move to use your class mechanic

 

Is this what you meant? 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Meanwhile every other class:

"I use my profession mechanic to use my profession mechanic" (not you necro).

[TugboatSteve.3607]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Is this what you meant? 

Yeah, that's what I meant. You have two options to autofill your adrenaline bar and go straight into your burst, failing that you can obviously build it the regular way. Headbutt also has an 18 second CD in PvP, IIRC.

It's not any different from the burst abilities on any other warrior spec, you have to build adrenaline before you can spend it, and pretty much anything, a blind, a well-timed immobilize, a dodge, or any hard CC will negate your ability to land.

When I was playing Berserker primarily in arenas before the PvP balance patch, whether I landed that headbutt was typically the difference between me taking out the kill target or being on the backfoot. It's a powerful combo due to the lengthy stun, and the burst usually takes them by surprise, so they have to focus on recovery. I used To the Limit as a backup to get into Berserk. You could conceivably try some kind of a set-up to land the headbutt?

I see what you're saying, that it's ultimately dependent on your performance and target selection/timing. I'm just not sure I see why the adrenaline cost needs to be, say, 10. If so, shouldn't it scale, similar to any other adrenaline ability? If I use 10 adrenaline on, say, arcing slice, it does less damage. If I use 10 adrenaline on skull crack, the stun duration is less. Why should it be the full berserk duration if I only use 10 adrenaline?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

22 minutes ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

It's not any different from the burst abilities on any other warrior spec,

It sure is. It's a rage skill now, that does no damage. 

Make no mistake, I see your angle. It, however, is immensely frustrating that it requires the effort and resources of stocking burst only to have no major synergy with the burst aligned traits. If it's not going to work with those traits, it shouldn't have to follow the burst rules. I am not fully convinced of OP's solution (or yours, for that matter) because I don't actually think berserker uptime (or ease of access) is the issue, but if the devs are going to make a change like that they need to pick either one, or the other.

Not this half-hearted middleground where Berserk doesn't benefit from the resource investment, but still requires it. Either it's a rage skill and requires less resources to utilize because it synergizes with less traits and does less on its own, or it is a burst skill, requires playing to the burst mechanic, and gets to synergize with the burst traits.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

Yeah, that's what I meant. You have two options to autofill your adrenaline bar and go straight into your burst, failing that you can obviously build it the regular way. Headbutt also has an 18 second CD in PvP, IIRC.

It's not any different from the burst abilities on any other warrior spec, you have to build adrenaline before you can spend it, and pretty much anything, a blind, a well-timed immobilize, a dodge, or any hard CC will negate your ability to land.

When I was playing Berserker primarily in arenas before the PvP balance patch, whether I landed that headbutt was typically the difference between me taking out the kill target or being on the backfoot. It's a powerful combo due to the lengthy stun, and the burst usually takes them by surprise, so they have to focus on recovery. I used To the Limit as a backup to get into Berserk. You could conceivably try some kind of a set-up to land the headbutt?

I see what you're saying, that it's ultimately dependent on your performance and target selection/timing. I'm just not sure I see why the adrenaline cost needs to be, say, 10. If so, shouldn't it scale, similar to any other adrenaline ability? If I use 10 adrenaline on, say, arcing slice, it does less damage. If I use 10 adrenaline on skull crack, the stun duration is less. Why should it be the full berserk duration if I only use 10 adrenaline?

TTL would be the ideal heal skill for berserker...too bad it heals only for as much as Mending while having a 50% longer CD and cleansing 0 conditions. I've long advocated for them to either buff the healing (like it is in PvE) or reduce the CD to 20s so it's on the same level as Mending. As it stands, though, taking TTL (or blood reckoning for that matter) means taking a suboptimal heal skill; this puts you at an undue disadvantage just for trying to use your spec's mechanic.

 

Headbutt is a great skill, but it is super telegraphed and unreliable to land. Relying on HB to get you into berserk mode boils down to, "if I hit, I actually get to play my spec and have a fighting chance. If I miss, Im probably screwed".

 

These are design issues. It shouldn't be this hard to use your main mechanic. Something like reducing (or eliminating) the adrenaline cost for berserk mode would address this.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Headbutt requires skill to land, but is one of the most versatile elites in the game on one of the lowest, it not the lowest, CDs for an elite.

[TugboatSteve.3607]

Honestly, my favorite part about playing Berserker is Headbutt. I unequivocally detest all the other elite skills in the game. I really wish they would just add another core elite skill because it annoys me that everything is gated behind e-specs.

Obviously, stab is an issue because it neuters headbutt as an opener. But it's got an 18 second cooldown.

It was also pretty dope when you could stunbreak from berserk, leading directly into your burst. It was a nice surprise opener.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

17 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It sure is. It's a rage skill now, that does no damage. 

Make no mistake, I see your angle. It, however, is immensely frustrating that it requires the effort and resources of stocking burst only to have no major synergy with the burst aligned traits. If it's not going to work with those traits, it shouldn't have to follow the burst rules. I am not fully convinced of OP's solution (or yours, for that matter) because I don't actually think berserker uptime (or ease of access) is the issue, but if the devs are going to make a change like that they need to pick either one, or the other.

Not this half-hearted middleground where Berserk doesn't benefit from the resource investment, but still requires it. Either it's a rage skill and requires less resources to utilize because it synergizes with less traits and does less on its own, or it is a burst skill, requires playing to the burst mechanic, and gets to synergize with the burst traits.

Not to toot my own horn here, but keep in mind this is the ONLY spec for war that is treated like this for some reason.

Spellbreaker's Full Counter is not a Medidtation

Bladesworn's Dragon Trigger is not an Armament. 

I understand they're going out of their way to find reasons for Berserker to not do high amounts of damage, but they're overreacting to a problem that doesn't exist. It remains the only class beholden to that standard.

I was playing glass berserker in pvp before these changes, benefitting from every damage modifier, and was still struggling to get players in a position where damaging skills would land (and if they would land, there was still ample time for them to leave and recover and return within my cooldowns.) The game won't break if axe zerker manages to hit someone hard. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Not to toot my own horn here, but keep in mind this is the ONLY spec for war that is treated like this for some reason.

Spellbreaker's Full Counter is not a Medidtation

Bladesworn's Dragon Trigger is not an Armament. 

I understand they're going out of their way to find reasons for Berserker to not do high amounts of damage, but they're overreacting to a problem that doesn't exist. It remains the only class beholden to that standard.

I was playing glass berserker in pvp before these changes, benefitting from every damage modifier, and was still struggling to get players in a position where damaging skills would land (and if they would land, there was still ample time for them to leave and recover and return within my cooldowns.) The game won't break if axe zerker manages to hit someone hard. 

No, but you may break a thief's feelings, and we can't be having that now can we.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No, but you may break a thief's feelings, and we can't be having that now can we.

 

Thief hard counters warrior by default, I think theyll live

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Thief hard counters warrior by default, I think theyll live

Tell that to the poor thieves that encountered my Sentinel build in WvW.

[Fueki.4753]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Tell that to the poor thieves that encountered my Sentinel build in WvW.

The decent ones ran away to live and tell the tale. That means, they hard-countered your killing intent.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Tell that to the poor thieves that encountered my Sentinel build in WvW.

My cat is asking the build.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

26 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The decent ones ran away to live and tell the tale. That means, they hard-countered your killing intent.

Nah, the low damage non crits lure them in, then BAM 8k eviscerate and they are in downstate.