Not a happy player atm with guardian elite specs

[DarkSoul.2348]

Man i am sorry but with all the bugs in your game and new eod specs that need some love, why would you rework a path of fire spec that works one of the most fun specs to play on the class......so sick of empty traits in this class with elite specs that do little or nothing and now firebrand is bugged.I am pve group meta fractals player and didnt feel OP to me but i cant speak for raids etc apparently issues there but a softer nerf or more thought out one at a better time maybe? would have been nice since willbender which i want to love still feel a little off but on the right track.I really like guardian and is my main but right now going back to core is most practical because it functions. so a little bummed out that rather than willbender getting the attention you went back to a pof spec and gutted it.I hope to see this game thrive again and i will still play but this does put me off investing money or time in this game and i just dropped a chunk into it, because sadly i did not now this change was coming.The specs are meant to be elite and feel unique and special please dont change that, it stops the class from becoming boring and keeps me wanting to play.Anyway just expressing my thoughts becasue i am a fan and want my main class to be fun.Still love guild wars 2 and hope to see the creativity flow and passion for the game rise up once more.

[Phantasmagoria.8209]

Yep, I too dumped cash into this game because of how much fun I was having with Firebrand and did not see this coming.... Lesson learned. Firebrand is unplayable if you are in a level synced area or in an instance. The tomes just stop working...Please fix these massive bugs you put into your game or even better go back to the way it was. until then I guess it's time to play Overwatch.

[The Boz.2038]

9 hours ago, Phantasmagoria.8209 said:

. . . I guess it's time to play Overwatch.

...this has to be a troll.

Right?

[The Boz.2038]

12 hours ago, DarkSoul.2348 said:

a little bummed out that rather than willbender getting the attention you went back to a pof spec and gutted it.

Nerfing an absolute outlier will always be more important than bringing an underdog up to par, if their "deltas" from the norm are ~the same.

[DarkSoul.2348]

Yeah at this rate i guess i will give my money to Diablo 4 next year,Like do you not understand or just dont care that if we main a class we most likely spent money on them giving them full bags etc so with willbender being a little wonky and firebrand broken to hell i now have a main character bank slot. Thanks. Reworked what wasn't broken and now it feels like a revenant  and cyclying through the books so fast why even have them all the flavour of the spec is gone. Please put it back the way it was.

[The Boz.2038]

What areas of the game are we talking about here, anyway?

[DarkSoul.2348]

Lol i'm like a spell caster that runs on battery's, and someone keeps taking one out feels so bad to play compared to the butter smooth way it was before.

Edited November 30, 2022 by DarkSoul.2348

[DarkSoul.2348]

Just pve is all i have played to try and get used to it before i hated how it played.In general i just pve/fractal group meta player

[DarkSoul.2348]

sorry i am new to forums even tho i have played since launch 😄 how do i reply to a post?

 

[The Boz.2038]

You can click the " [+] Quote" button below my post to reply directly to me, and "tag" me by doing so.

[Hotride.2187]

I'm actually excited to try fb in fractals now. I wouldn't go as far as to say, it will require thinking to play it... but its getting there slowly.

[ThunderX.6591]

The change can be kind of decent on a support build, cause you can circle faster on the support tomes now without the need to wait the cooldown to reuse them, but the problem is the dps side of FB...... the condi DPS side of it, that now is a lot slower and the trait Renewed Justice practically do nothing anymore for FB........... plus we lost Stoic Demeanor extra burning damage with the rework too, getting dps FB in a not good position for a class that before patch was around 32-33k dps max.......... (when other go around 38k).

I will wait some Snowcrow or similar test to see how is the class now, but don't see it doing well as dps as of now.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Nerfing an absolute outlier will always be more important than bringing an underdog up to par, if their "deltas" from the norm are ~the same.

Depends on the wider context. No profession should be completely knocked out of the meta, and if HB is knocked out, that risks knocking every alacdps out along with it unless heal herald or heal scrapper can step into the breach.

[Mell.4873]

I see this as a positive since the way I see the auther love for the class is based on the pure flexibility of Firebrand. 

Being able to cycle tomes meant you could do 30k+ dps also while providing some boons was very OP. This exactly why Firebrand and Scourge dominated pre-EoD content and why we have the silly idea that DPS should not be selfish. 

These changes if the devs got it right will mean a more fit for purpose role. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Cuks.8241]

I havent tried the spec yet, neither did I look at new numbers. But am I the only one that at least on paper sees this as a buff to hfb? Becuase you dont really need the tomes to do the basic job as a hfb. And now you wont be limited to tome CD for that extra utility. This looks good to me.

As for the qfb. It looks like you will have actually have a trade off in dps for all that utility. Its probably a nerf but is it really fair that a class have so much utility packed without much trade off.

Oh btw if you didnt see FB as op in fractals I dont know what game are you playing. 

[ThunderX.6591]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I see this as a positive since the way I see the auther love for the class is based on the pure flexibility of Firebrand. 

Being able to cycle tomes meant you could do 30k+ dps also while providing some boons was very OP. This exactly why Firebrand and Scourge dominated pre-EoD content and why we have the silly idea that DPS should not be selfish. 

These changes if the devs got it right will mean a more fit for purpose role. 

 

You never see a Virtuoso or an Harbringer at work in game, right?

They literally bypass any pure dps FB with extra bonus to spare, but noone talk about their OP (over 35k+ dps)....., and the TOP pure FB DPS was capped around what i write in my post (32k - 33k), but if you provide tomes boons your DPS plummet totally under 30k (more like 25k if you are really good, and all of this before the patch), but now, the F1 source of dps is nerfed (we spend more page for some skill, before was always 1 page for a skill), we lost extra damage from trait changed (Stoic Demeanor) to some might boon and resistance.................. and F1 regen on kill appear to not work with the new tome mechanics................. i see a big big devastation here, not a simple nerf. (obviously, like i wrote before, i will wait some Snowcrow or similar test to see how is the class now, but on paper and from some "fast test", the dps part of the class appear "cancelled")

 

To Cuks, for support FB (HFB) as i sayd in my previous post, the change can be good for exactly what you explained, the problem (as write before) is all on DPS FB (condi variant, the power one was never a decent option or functional as spec).

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

 

You never see a Virtuoso or an Harbringer at work in game, right?

They literally bypass any pure dps FB with extra bonus to spare, but noone talk about their OP (over 35k+ dps)....., and the TOP pure FB DPS was capped around what i write in my post (32k - 33k), but if you provide tomes boons your DPS plummet totally under 30k (more like 25k if you are really good, and all of this before the patch), but now, the F1 source of dps is nerfed (we spend more page for some skill, before was always 1 page for a skill), we lost extra damage from trait changed (Stoic Demeanor) to some might boon and resistance.................. and F1 regen on kill appear to not work with the new tome mechanics................. i see a big big devastation here, not a simple nerf. (obviously, like i wrote before, i will wait some Snowcrow or similar test to see how is the class now, but on paper and from some "fast test", the dps part of the class appear "cancelled")

 

To Cuks, for support FB (HFB) as i sayd in my previous post, the change can be good for exactly what you explained, the problem (as write before) is all on DPS FB (condi variant, the power one was never a decent option or functional as spec).

I think that is still very strong, A 5k or even 10k Dps drop from a total of 35k to provide boons is still very strong while most healers are under 5k dps. 

I believe the highest DPS boon provider is Mirage at 28k but that's with regeneration uptime and a perfect rotation. 

[Shiva.2059]

Guardian is not my main and am as yet inexperienced but enjoy it a lot in Pve and intend to learn more, could easily compete with my main character down the track, loads of fun times.  I can understand the rational behind the decisions made, and see how changes could be beneficial. I am unsure if its just me not flowing to well at the moment or issues with the class  as it seems a little hit and miss, Tomes sometimes open when triggered and pages within seem to work on occasion, some skills using two pages, I am yet to fully understand the how of it, but seems to be a little  inconsistent momentarily, I have a satellite connection so it could easily be a latency issue, however was not in evidence prior to the changes made.  Have every faith that it will sort in time.

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think that is still very strong, A 5k or even 10k Dps drop from a total of 35k to provide boons is still very strong while most healers are under 5k dps. 

I believe the highest DPS boon provider is Mirage at 28k but that's with regeneration uptime and a perfect rotation. 

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Quickbrand provided some fairly weak emergency healing and boons at around 30k, condibrand the same (but no quickness) at around 36k. The closest comparison is probably herald, which received a significant buff - formal benchmarks aren't out yet that I've seen, but I've heard 39k for DPS herald, and power quickness herald was already matching quickbrand (it must now be significantly outDPSing it). Both forms of herald are going to be capable of granting at least some protection, regeneration, lifesteal, and a few other boons, in addition to extending other boons, and herald has the option of swapping out Shiro for other legends for different utility at the price of some damage.

Keeping in mind that firebrand's ability to drop stability has probably been reduced to about that of Jalis, and Jalis also offers potent damage reduction, it's probably fair for condibrand and quickbrand to be in the same ballpark as Jalis power herald and Jalis quickness herald respectively.

Asking for condibrand to do 25-30k (and quickbrand to be, what, 20-25k?) is punitively asking for it to be deleted from the meta. We've seen what happens to DPS+defensive boon supports that bench under 30k and don't provide alacrity or quickness. They get abandoned.

Edited December 1, 2022 by draxynnic.3719
Read the wrong benchmarks

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Quickbrand provided some fairly weak emergency healing and boons at around 30k, condibrand the same (but no quickness) at around 36k. The closest comparison is probably herald, which received a significant buff - formal benchmarks aren't out yet that I've seen, but I've heard 39k for DPS herald, and power quickness herald was already matching quickbrand (it must now be significantly outDPSing it). Both forms of herald are going to be capable of granting at least some protection, regeneration, lifesteal, and a few other boons, in addition to extending other boons, and herald has the option of swapping out Shiro for other legends for different utility at the price of some damage.

Keeping in mind that firebrand's ability to drop stability has probably been reduced to about that of Jalis, and Jalis also offers potent damage reduction, it's probably fair for condibrand and quickbrand to be in the same ballpark as Jalis power herald and Jalis quickness herald respectively.

Asking for condibrand to do 25-30k (and quickbrand to be, what, 20-25k?) is punitively asking for it to be deleted from the meta. We've seen what happens to DPS+defensive boon supports that bench under 30k and don't provide alacrity or quickness. They get abandoned.

Your breakdown makes the landscape of classes look great.

Before this Firebrand was the defactoro pick for any quickness/dps role and maybe an over nerf is what is needed to bring other specialisation into the limelight. Then once they nerf them or buff Firebrand everything will be balanced and viable.

I have been waiting for along time for people to accept the idea that Chronomancer can provide quickness and has amazing synergy with other classes like Renegade due to traited Signet of Inspiration 

[draxynnic.3719]

31 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Your breakdown makes the landscape of classes look great.

Before this Firebrand was the defactoro pick for any quickness/dps role and maybe an over nerf is what is needed to bring other specialisation into the limelight. Then once they nerf them or buff Firebrand everything will be balanced and viable.

I have been waiting for along time for people to accept the idea that Chronomancer can provide quickness and has amazing synergy with other classes like Renegade due to traited Signet of Inspiration 

Yeah, quickherald and heal herald were already starting to give firebrand some significant competition before the patch. It's just that they're a little more complex to run and that people haven't had the time to learn them while firebrand has been around for years. Revenant is one of my predictions for becoming really significant in the fractal meta if firebrand is left in a weak state as a result (relatively easy to swap gear over for, especially if you have heavy legendary, herald fills all the roles firebrand does, and you can technically fill alac without needing to switch character). Point being, though, that it demonstrates that the tradeoff of DPS for the ability to break out defensive boons in a pinch only goes so far. Especially now that firebrand is in a position where it needs to hold back on tome 1 skills if it wants to keep tome 2 and 3 skills in reserve for emergencies. The big problem before was that while firebrand really didn't want to have to break out tomes 2 and 3, they were always sitting there just in case.

(That, and guardian had no other viable build for a few months, which overinflated firebrand's presence in fractals.)

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Saying a build deserves to be trash because it had inflated representation for awhile is a very poor mentality to balance around. 

[draxynnic.3719]

29 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Saying a build deserves to be trash because it had inflated representation for awhile is a very poor mentality to balance around. 

Particularly since it was already really only overinflated in fractals, which probably had more to do with structural factors in fractals than anything else.

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the structure of the rework, but it does seem apparent that they've overcompensated. And I'm already seeing signs of the 'alac heals, quickness dpses' paradigm being reinforced.

[Kodama.6453]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Particularly since it was already really only overinflated in fractals, which probably had more to do with structural factors in fractals than anything else.

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the structure of the rework, but it does seem apparent that they've overcompensated. And I'm already seeing signs of the 'alac heals, quickness dpses' paradigm being reinforced.

Maybe that is just me, but it feels to me like healing specs are usually also gravitating more towards alacrity by design from Anet. Several of the specs which got designed specifically with a healing role in mind got handed alacrity: Druid, Mechanist, Tempest, Specter

Meanwhile Firebrand is the only class coming to my mind which gives quickness while having a healer role in mind by design. And maybe also Herald. But most quickness givers feel more selfish to really allow them to be the healer. Doesn't help that 3 of the classes in the game able to give quickness can also do this solely by playing dps: Warrior (all variants), Chronomancer (as far as I am aware, there is currently no healing variant for them), Harbinger

 

[draxynnic.3719]

5 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Maybe that is just me, but it feels to me like healing specs are usually also gravitating more towards alacrity by design from Anet. Several of the specs which got designed specifically with a healing role in mind got handed alacrity: Druid, Mechanist, Tempest, Specter

Meanwhile Firebrand is the only class coming to my mind which gives quickness while having a healer role in mind by design. And maybe also Herald. But most quickness givers feel more selfish to really allow them to be the healer. Doesn't help that 3 of the classes in the game able to give quickness can also do this solely by playing dps: Warrior (all variants), Chronomancer (as far as I am aware, there is currently no healing variant for them), Harbinger

 

I think at least some of that is largely explained by what was already around. Scrapper, already a decent healer if built for it, had quickness so Mech got alacrity. Catalyst had quickness so Tempest got alacrity. Herald got quickness because Renegade had alacrity. Spectre isn't working as a healer in practice, generally being more of an alacdps. Between scrapper, healbrand, and heal herald, there are about as many healquick builds as healalac builds, it's just that with the current numbers, it works out just a bit more efficient to have the alac source be the healer. Just as, in the firebrigade days, it was just a bit more efficient to have the firebrand do the healing (after Soulcleave got nerfed, anyway).

Problem is, there are plenty of alacdps builds still in play. Mesmer, the original alac source, lacks a good healer build. Spectre is more likely to run Ritualist than any healer set. Alacren is pretty scuffed at the moment, but is probably still more likely to re-emerge as an alacdps than a healer, if it gets the chance. Alacrity is available to all rangers, not just druids. But they're all dead if the 'alac heals, quick dps' paradigm solidifies.