Fervent Force isn't the problem

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

You're actually just sticking your head in the sand at this point. I have seen untamed players (pugs, mind you, not people from my static) in raids hit near this number while doing mechanics that they cannot ignore such as friends on samarog. It's not that unrealistic of a number to hit with practice, and you have consistent, strong dps on both the power and condi variants, both of which I have seen run incredibly well.

Okay I have yet to see in when I play this content, also Raids/Strikes are the closest to simulating the Golem DPS experience.

4 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

I really like the trait, but if it is busted I just gonna let anet do its thing. they already stated that they might adjust it later, but buffing the other traits before that which they did. however the real culprit here is that player considered untamed a useless spec when it came out overlooking such options thus it ended up where it is now.

Very true, it took a few Hammer buffs for it to become Meta, but Off-hand Axe was broken right from the start.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

How would people feel if fervent force was changed so that only the weapon skills get the cooldown reduction? Would it be a bad design choice?

 

[pninak.1069]

my expectations would be a smaller cd reduction nerf aswell as a cd increase on the traits cooldown. then h3 is less usabale and you can't easily connect stuns. but it is also that most stun skills had their skill dmg heavily reduced so overall the dmg potential for hammer for example shouldn't be as high. so there is also the option to remove other stuns available in different weapons sets or nerf the dmg of a weapon set. I doubt they gonna nerf hammer so quickly after buffing it. a trait rework could also be a thing, but it is kind of hilarious as other classes got similiar ways to skip cd. specter (no weapon skill cd, alac), chrono( enhanced alac + signet of illusions, echo), berserker(blood reckoning), bs(dragonspike mine, tactical reload), (holo sword 1-3), guard(on kill). ofc each of these has a different setup to play with, but overall it doesn't seem to make a huge difference. recently even reaper got another cd reduction ability s1-3. there is also always a sigil that recued cd every 10 sec by 2 if you get a kill. gw1 has even more of those.

[Mell.4873]

19 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

my expectations would be a smaller cd reduction nerf aswell as a cd increase on the traits cooldown. then h3 is less usabale and you can't easily connect stuns. but it is also that most stun skills had their skill dmg heavily reduced so overall the dmg potential for hammer for example shouldn't be as high. so there is also the option to remove other stuns available in different weapons sets or nerf the dmg of a weapon set. I doubt they gonna nerf hammer so quickly after buffing it. a trait rework could also be a thing, but it is kind of hilarious as other classes got similiar ways to skip cd. specter (no weapon skill cd, alac), chrono( enhanced alac + signet of illusions, echo), berserker(blood reckoning), bs(dragonspike mine, tactical reload), (holo sword 1-3), guard(on kill). ofc each of these has a different setup to play with, but overall it doesn't seem to make a huge difference. recently even reaper got another cd reduction ability s1-3. there is also always a sigil that recued cd every 10 sec by 2 if you get a kill. gw1 has even more of those.

They can't increase the trait cooldown since Hammer 3 has a follow up stun which would not trigger Fervent Force like you said.
I think they will lower the cooldown reduction to 2 seconds while adding some other effect like Restorative Strikes.

Removing FF would be the worse outcome especially for some PvP builds.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

To Close of this thread i have noticed that Ferocious Symbiosis has the potential to have higher DPS than Fervent force on the right weapon and with the right pet.

All the Wyverns attack twice as the part of their animation so it can get 5 stacks very quickly so that is 20% increase damage. If you use Greatsword or even Hammer with 1-2 utility stuns to reset frost trap it might be better to use all your utility slots and not run Fervent Force.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Mell.4873

[pninak.1069]

think it depends on how you design your build. mine uses the spore explosion one, trap with another cc and a spirit. elite is another one allowing perma alac.

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, pninak.1069 said:

think it depends on how you design your build. mine uses the spore explosion one, trap with another cc and a spirit. elite is another one allowing perma alac.

I do something similar but most of the high DPS builds camp Unleashed mode.

[pninak.1069]

so it could be the case that it is also undertuned lol. when I started I camped pet-unleashed-mode, but recently I try to combo more when needed into the other mode. it is a pretty difficult, but think it pays off. main issues are the buffs like missing stab that can ruin your unleashed dmg. I gnereally try to create my own builds and have mostly slightly off-meta variants. in pve it doesn't really matter what you play anyways as long as you don't go full tank/healer.

[Zaret.1450]

For ferocious symbiosis i think ranger pet traits should move to be all in beastmastery, specificaly the sharing boons trait in nature magic, that way pet would be more usefull and it would probably mean a small increase in dmg, pet dmg overall isnt high.

For FF just decreasing its effect from 4 seconds to 3 seconds or 2.5 seconds could be enought, 2 seconds is how wvw and pvp works, but if you try both variants youll see 2 seconds end up lacking a bit, so maybe 3 seconds would be enought to lower the benchmark to 38k or so.

[Dadnir.5038]

I do believe that the main issue of this thread is that people keep assuming that this is a benchmark issue. Objectively nobody should even care about the 38k or 40k dps that Untamed dish out as within the current game such number cannot really be labeled as imbalanced.

The issue is that it recharge every single of the ranger's skills CD which allow the untamed to:

- Ignore concentration for it's boon uptime (both shared and personal).

- Significantly increase the rate at which the untamed can chain defensive and sustain skills (Stability/evade/stun break/strike damage immunity/healing skill/movement skills)

- Increase the rate at which hard CC can be used.

There is just no draw back to fervent force it will help a build that focus on defense like it will help a build that focus on support or simple minded damage output (be it power or condition). And the worst is that it does have the potential to be the best trait for each of these paths. The issue isn't a matter of number output but a matter of how wide the range of use of this trait is, as it is an all around buff to everything.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do believe that the main issue of this thread is that people keep assuming that this is a benchmark issue. Objectively nobody should even care about the 38k or 40k dps that Untamed dish out as within the current game such number cannot really be labeled as imbalanced.

The issue is that it recharge every single of the ranger's skills CD which allow the untamed to:

- Ignore concentration for it's boon uptime (both shared and personal).

- Significantly increase the rate at which the untamed can chain defensive and sustain skills (Stability/evade/stun break/strike damage immunity/healing skill/movement skills)

- Increase the rate at which hard CC can be used.

There is just no draw back to fervent force it will help a build that focus on defense like it will help a build that focus on support or simple minded damage output (be it power or condition). And the worst is that it does have the potential to be the best trait for each of these paths. The issue isn't a matter of number output but a matter of how wide the range of use of this trait is, as it is an all around buff to everything.

At the very least ranger has very little that makes it useful to a group beyond alac uptime. It's also very strict. It does need to be changed as I think there's more interesting potential compared to current untamed, especially in the other, lower tier traits, but 

[pninak.1069]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do believe that the main issue of this thread is that people keep assuming that this is a benchmark issue. Objectively nobody should even care about the 38k or 40k dps that Untamed dish out as within the current game such number cannot really be labeled as imbalanced.

The issue is that it recharge every single of the ranger's skills CD which allow the untamed to:

- Ignore concentration for it's boon uptime (both shared and personal).

- Significantly increase the rate at which the untamed can chain defensive and sustain skills (Stability/evade/stun break/strike damage immunity/healing skill/movement skills)

- Increase the rate at which hard CC can be used.

There is just no draw back to fervent force it will help a build that focus on defense like it will help a build that focus on support or simple minded damage output (be it power or condition). And the worst is that it does have the potential to be the best trait for each of these paths. The issue isn't a matter of number output but a matter of how wide the range of use of this trait is, as it is an all around buff to everything.

 

 

doesn't make sense. you need cc in order for it to work so you are already limited in choices. also for buffing allaround there enough similiar ways for other classes. elemental empowerment buffs all stats too and similiar to ff it needs a specific situation for to get stacked. if you take lots of cc so you gonna lack dmg if you take healing you lack other aspects. would you also argue against chrono for its enchanced alac? afterall it also lowers the cooldown of every skill you have. the issue here is that he needs to shatter or needs to have a source for alac for it to work.

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

 

 

doesn't make sense. you need cc in order for it to work so you are already limited in choices. also for buffing allaround there enough similiar ways for other classes. elemental empowerment buffs all stats too and similiar to ff it needs a specific situation for to get stacked. if you take lots of cc so you gonna lack dmg if you take healing you lack other aspects. would you also argue against chrono for its enchanced alac? afterall it also lowers the cooldown of every skill you have. the issue here is that he needs to shatter or needs to have a source for alac for it to work.

Yeah I don't think people understand this. Outside of using Hammer to reset cooldowns on every other weapon you needs at least 2 stuns. 

The only real synergy is Alacrity Untamed due to Storm Spirit and Hammer. Even then the damage is very low if you are trying to play defensively. 

The main advantage to Untamed is the ability to avoid mechanics when fighting due to changing to a very defensive unleashed mode. The core element to this is Fervent Force without it you would lose alot of DPS. Both other grandmasters are way better if you don't go for CC. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Mell.4873

[pninak.1069]

the trait is the reason why initially thought untamed ment to be a cc powerhouse, but it apparently didn't deliver. I like the trait solely because it forces a certain playstyle that the others don't necessarily need. fs just needs you or your pet to hit and the other one seems be a slight alteration of the bs first grandmaster but instead is used for all attacks. even the recent change on fb reflects this.

[Kodama.6453]

13 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

doesn't make sense. you need cc in order for it to work so you are already limited in choices. also for buffing allaround there enough similiar ways for other classes. elemental empowerment buffs all stats too and similiar to ff it needs a specific situation for to get stacked. if you take lots of cc so you gonna lack dmg if you take healing you lack other aspects. would you also argue against chrono for its enchanced alac? afterall it also lowers the cooldown of every skill you have. the issue here is that he needs to shatter or needs to have a source for alac for it to work.

Doesn't really feel that "forced" to take CC if 10 out of 12 weapon sets for the untamed already come with hard CC baked in to use with FF. You legit can just avoid having hard CC by either running axe/dagger or axe/torch, otherwise you will always have CC to work with.

And for the big majority of these weapon sets, just proccing FF with the CC from this weapon set is already giving more cooldown reduction than improved alacrity on chronomancer.

 

[pninak.1069]

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Doesn't really feel that "forced" to take CC if 10 out of 12 weapon sets for the untamed already come with hard CC baked in to use with FF. You legit can just avoid having hard CC by either running axe/dagger or axe/torch, otherwise you will always have CC to work with.

And for the big majority of these weapon sets, just proccing FF with the CC from this weapon set is already giving more cooldown reduction than improved alacrity on chronomancer.

 

 

1cc(lol) per weapon means that you still have to wait the normal duration for the cc skill to recharge. usually using stuns outside of weaponskills punishes you with less dmg. so there is no other weapon outside of hammer where you can actually profit ccing once.

 

if you however use stuff like quickdraw you might be able to chain cc outside of hammer. you are trading already quite a lot for the cooldown reduction and pretty much limit yourself to the weapon skills you have. if the weapons on their own aren't that strong then using skills more won't easily lead to exponential dmg increase. most builds instead use dmg modifiers since cd reduction focussed builds lack in too many areas.

[Kodama.6453]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:17 PM, pninak.1069 said:

1cc(lol) per weapon means that you still have to wait the normal duration for the cc skill to recharge. usually using stuns outside of weaponskills punishes you with less dmg. so there is no other weapon outside of hammer where you can actually profit ccing once.

Dude, I think you are kinda spoiled by that trait already. Let's do some math.

Let's say that you use sword/dagger as one of your weapon sets, which means that you can just rely on the ambush skill to trigger FF. Ambush skills have a 15 seconds cooldown and can not get reduced, since this is an ICD and not an actual CD on your bar.

Using that ambush skill off cooldown means that you will reduce the cooldown of all your skills on the bar by 4 seconds every 15 seconds.

15/19 = 0,79

This means that just by using that one ambush skill, all your skills have a cooldown reduction of roughly 21%. This is more than having permanent alacrity on yourself, which "just" provides 20% cooldown reduction on all your skills.

And this is already one of the worst case scenarios with a CC skill with a static 15 seconds cooldown. Other weapons can push that number even further up, either by getting the CC skill reduced itself (longbow and axe offhand, for example, since they are projectiles who CC when hitting the target when the skill is already on cooldown) or by providing more than 1 hard CC (hammer and greatsword).

And here you are telling people that getting cooldown reduction which is stronger than having permanent alacrity and which you can stack on top of actual alacrity is not enoug... give me a break.

EDIT: Cleaned up a math mistake.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[pninak.1069]

3 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Dude, I think you are kinda spoiled by that trait already. Let's do some math.

Let's say that you use sword/dagger as one of your weapon sets, which means that you can just rely on the ambush skill to trigger FF. Ambush skills have a 15 seconds cooldown and can not get reduced, since this is an ICD and not an actual CD on your bar.

Using that ambush skill off cooldown means that you will reduce the cooldown of all your skills on the bar by 4 seconds every 15 seconds.

4/15 = 0,26666

This means that just by using that one ambush skill, all your skills have a cooldown reduction of roughly 27%. This is more than having permanent alacrity on yourself, which "just" provides 20% cooldown reduction on all your skills.

And this is already one of the worst case scenarios with a CC skill with a static 15 seconds cooldown. Other weapons can push that number even further up, either by getting the CC skill reduced itself (longbow and axe offhand, for example, since they are projectiles who CC when hitting the target when the skill is already on cooldown) or by providing more than 1 hard CC (hammer and greatsword).

And here you are telling people that getting cooldown reduction which is stronger than having permanent alacrity and which you can stack on top of actual alacrity is not enoug... give me a break.

 

you are miscalculating.  first you actually need to switch inbetween modes and you only get an ambush if you switch to unleash ranger. so you are already spending 1-2 secs on that. I didn't say it wasn't enough, but there must be a reason why metabuilds don't use this trait. it is kind of awkward that you are overlooking skills on other profeessions that can also directly reset the skill's cooldown. (mimic, signet of illusion, ether signet),(improvisation), (renewed focus), (tactical reload, blood reckoning, dragonspike mine), (elemental celerity), (dread,chilling scythe, gravedigger), (power wrench). and all those also work with alac.

[pninak.1069]

there is also the option for each class to take sigil of frenzy which reduced all skill cd by 2 every 10 secs as long as you kill enemies. this are 8 secs alac for everyone.

[Kodama.6453]

18 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

you are miscalculating.  first you actually need to switch inbetween modes and you only get an ambush if you switch to unleash ranger. so you are already spending 1-2 secs on that.

Or, since unleashing just has 1 second cooldown, you could go into leashed state 14 seconds after using the ambush and then unleash 1 second later again, which means that you get the ambush immediately when the cooldown is gone, instead of "spending 1-2 seconds on that".

Congratulations, all your argument here is saying is "it sucks to suck".

18 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

I didn't say it wasn't enough, but there must be a reason why metabuilds don't use this trait

Literally every single meta PvE build for untamed is using that trait, are you trolling?

18 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

it is kind of awkward that you are overlooking skills on other profeessions that can also directly reset the skill's cooldown. (mimic, signet of illusion, ether signet),(improvisation), (renewed focus), (tactical reload, blood reckoning, dragonspike mine), (elemental celerity), (dread,chilling scythe, gravedigger), (power wrench). and all those also work with alac.

I am not overlooking these, but it is quite amusing that you think these skills and trait are even in the same ballpark as FF. They can't hold a candle against it.

For example, what you are overlooking mostly for these is that they don't recharge all your skills like Fervent Force does, but just some selected few. Many of them even just recharge one single skill:

• Mimic, Blood Reckoning, Dragonspike Mine, Dread, Chilling Scythe, Gravedigger, Power Wrench

You want to tell us that having mimic recharge one single utility skill and then even adding the cooldown of it to it's own is comparable to a trait which recharges all your your equipped skills.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[pninak.1069]

you deny a long cooldown with enhanced alac. no someone above told me that the trait has fallen out of meta since the change to ferocious symbiosis.

[pninak.1069]

do you also suggest that infinite horizon should be nerfed? pretty much every mirage uses the trait. other classes also overwhelmingly pick the same traits.

[The Boz.2038]

20 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

there is also the option for each class to take sigil of frenzy which reduced all skill cd by 2 every 10 secs as long as you kill enemies. this are 8 secs alac for everyone.

Yeah, sure, take it! You could be *awesome* with that constant alacrity!.. in the Cold War strike mission, lol.

[Infusion.7149]

Topic is "fervent force is not broken, it's axe"... right...

Yet Power alac untamed with Fervent Force is benching 36K with hammer not axe https://snowcrows.com/builds/ranger/untamed/power-alacrity-untamed

Sure it's hard to attain those numbers due to the APM but it's definitely the trait. Most traits only recharge a subset of skills (i.e. if Fervent Force only recharged unleashed ambush and unleashed pet skills) or a single skill.

[Kodama.6453]

18 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

do you also suggest that infinite horizon should be nerfed? pretty much every mirage uses the trait. other classes also overwhelmingly pick the same traits.

You were using the argument "there must be a reason why metabuilds don't take this trait", all I did was refuting this argument as complete nonsense, since every meta PvE build is exclusively using that trait on untamed.

That alone is not necessarily a reason to nerf a trait and I never claimed this. I just pointed out that your argument is simply wrong.

There are also tons of other reasons why FF needs to get deleted, despite it being the only trait used by untamed PvE meta builds. This thread here is full of people listing reasons why fervent force is unhealthy design.