Tired Of Pepega Invuln Design Classes

[Dr Meta.3158]

Ideally, in order to be good at conquest you need mobility, the ability to stave off group focused pressure for some time, and the ability to do good burst damage or support through burst damage. Anything else is bad at conquest regardless of its general performance in conquest.

In regards to invulnerability, its mainly just its lack of counterplay. Being able to ignore all game mechanics with no drawbacks is horrible game design and even people who have never designed a game in their life can easily recognize that. But this game is filled with that. Hell I've seen one chronomancer go into stealth, turn someone into a moa, stun them, and then power shatter combo them dead before the either the stun nor the moa ended. The person could do absolutely nothing in return especially considering the invisibilty didn't even end until the first shatter went off. And that whole setup is still bad in conquest. Its game design failure on so many levels its should be written into textbooks for universities.

There's so many varying examples of just obvious game design failures all throughout this game even beyond pvp and yet, here we still are.

 

But as we are now. Most of these specific design failures are mostly used by antisocial sorts of people to harass other people for sadistic purposes rather than to try to play at a competitive level. That's likely the real reason why people are upset at these setups.

[Sahne.6950]

4 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Hell I've seen one chronomancer go into stealth, turn someone into a moa, stun them, and then power shatter combo them dead before the either the stun nor the moa ended. The person could do absolutely nothing

im waiting for this one guy that will step in and scream:

"1 Stack of stabi is all it takes.  Moa isnt even strong, just dodge it or have stabi, duh."

 Moa out of stealth is disgusting... XD  Grav well is alot stronger... we get it... but eating a double moa out of stealth and getting shattered to death.... just feels cheap.

 

 

 

Salty Mesmermain.1234 is Typing.....

Edited December 13, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Let's be more specific. We have these things (just off the top of my head):

• Distortion shatter
• Distortion on signets
• Virtuoso Aegis
• Mirage dodge (Infinite Horizon has nothing to do with this)
• Arcane Shield
• Shocking Aura
• Mag Aura
• Swirling Winds (but other classes have similar effects, like CPC)

Which of these would you like to see removed? Or is it something else, if so, what.

There are so many things you've failed to mention here which are by far the major culprits, like everything on Conjure Earth Shield or Ele Focus #5 or Stone heart, ect ect.

I also never said I wanted anything removed. What I did is I pointed out how tossing more and more invuln effects or small effects that can be stacked to create invulnerability while simultaneously being able to maintain offensive pressure while being invuln, was hurting the feel of the game's dynamic.

You tell me how it can be fixed. This was the purpose in creating this thread.

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Eh, Vindicator is also a "waiting game", actually ranger too with the block -> evade -> swoop evade -> stealth, and so on. It turns into a waiting game regardless of if the defense skill does damage or not. Also Vindi does damage at the end of the dodge, to me that counts as "offense while defensing". Even Full Counter could be considered "offense while defensing" and the ideal counterplay is precisely to "wait it out".

Alright so, I could create a compelling argument around the idea that a naked non-geared Necromancer can also create "waiting game" effects by using the 2x dodge rolls he has, but in reality that scenario is nothing in comparison to the two classes at the top of the list who truly have too much invuln cycling, and that is Ele & Mes. This is like a highly identified fact amongst anyone who plays this game's pvp.

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Let's stick to sPvP in this forum section.

When discussing balance, sometimes it is mandatory to mention how the class/build compares in balance between pvp, wvw. and pve. Throwing a comment like this at me is a copout alternative to actually responding to the strong point that I made.

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Mesmer isn't good off node

Mesmer is and always has been one of the best duelists off-node as well as +ers.

As much is obvious if you were to take the time to watch or play against some of the better Mesmers players in the game.

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

"Builds that are good at conquest are the builds that are the best at surviving focused pressure, whether that is from superior disengagement factors or superior sheer sustain factors. This highlights how strong invulnerability is"

But Vindi and Spellbreaker are considered stronger in conquest and do not have these invuln effects like Cata (earth shield) or Virt/Mirage/Chrono. This contradicts the narrative.

It doesn't contradict anything. You're taking things out of context, selectively mentioning or not mentioning certain aspects of my statement, and stating some misinformation in general.

1. Vindi & Spellbreaker are not considered better in conquest than Catalyst. At worst they are seen as equals, but most people would probably say that Catalyst has higher performance value actually.
2. A great deal of Vindi & Spellbraker sustain is sheer mobility and/or CC stopping power. Bringing these two classes into this discussion has little to do with the original discussion about invuln effects and how they effect the dynamic & feel of the game's combat.

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

you want to nerf kitten spec because its annoying, so go ahead and say it instead of making kitten up of how " powerfull " it is.

Some of you guys tunnel vision these forum discussions with class defense too hard.

If you were to calmly take the time and reread what I've been saying, I've been pointing out that invuln effects are lazy balancing, it isn't fun to play against, and it's actually hurting the viability of classes who they are choosing to balance combat prowess with more and more invuln, because then those classes can't hold nodes.

Take a couple steps back man.

Read what I'm saying before arguing about something I never said at all.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Dr Meta.3158]

@Trevor Boyer.6524

Also I think an important thing to note here to ease frustration is the understand that the majority of the people here are not high end players and so do not understand game mechanics well enough to understand the issues at hand. They have to be explained thoroughly and simply and probably with video footage as well. More effort than its worth for sure, but just noting it.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524

Also I think an important thing to note here to ease frustration is the understand that the majority of the people here are not high end players and so do not understand game mechanics well enough to understand the issues at hand. They have to be explained thoroughly and simply and probably with video footage as well. More effort than its worth for sure, but just noting it.

It was quite apparent during the recent population decline that the forum had become 90% dominant with Gold 1 - 2 level feedback, when 3/5 threads posted were complaining about and only about Rifle Mechs. Meanwhile, in the semis & final rounds of ATs and any plat+ ranked game, Rifle Mechs are exploding on impact and dying in 2s each time they come off respawn.

Yeah it's true, most of this feedback is likely coming from players who have never fought a Shorts or a Grimjack or really just any P2+ veteran that actually knows how to optimize the use of these class kits.

 

[Sahne.6950]

9 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

when 3/5 threads posted were complaining about and only about Rifle Mechs.

Lets be real... @noneHotBuildTest.7251started all 3 of those Threads. 😂

27 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

it's actually hurting the viability of classes who they are choosing to balance combat prowess with more and more invuln, because then those classes can't hold nodes.

 

This thing right here is actually SO valueable. If they would change all of the ele invulns to blocks... it would hurt the sustain a bit, but at the same time make Ele better at holding a node.  Because right now, if you use your invulns... the node is gone.

It would creat more room to implement counterplay and at the same time give builds, that previously wouldnt be able to hold a node effectively, tools to do so. 

Its literally Win-Win  if we are looking at Conquest.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

This thing right here is actually SO valueable. If they would change all of the ele invulns to blocks... it would hurt the sustain a bit, but at the same time make Ele better at holding a node.  Because right now, if you use your invulns... the node is gone.

And THIS is the core point to be made ^

All these people trying to argue in here need to take a step back and reevaluate what's being said.

What is being pointed out in this thread is that although adding more invulns to a class may quickly bolster it up combat wise to be able to compete against stronger classes, it creates an effect where the more invulns that are slapped onto it, the worse it gets at conquest node holding, and the more obnoxious & boring it gets for people to fight against it. It's just not a good design philosophy.

No one is saying anything about nerfing Eles & Mes into the ground, we're talking about better game design here. For example you've said several times now about replacing some invulns with blocks, which allows for counter play but also would allow an Ele to be better at holding a node.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

56 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Salty Mesmermain.1234 is Typing.....

literally press skill 5 and go behind cover. Mesmer with moa is useless because a mesmer can't chase down a moa.

Different story if there's thieves or heralds around. In that case every moa converts into a kill.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Leonidrex.5649]

51 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

There are so many things you've failed to mention here which are by far the major culprits, like everything on Conjure Earth Shield or Ele Focus #5 or Stone heart, ect ect.

I also never said I wanted anything removed. What I did is I pointed out how tossing more and more invuln effects or small effects that can be stacked to create invulnerability while simultaneously being able to maintain offensive pressure while being invuln, was hurting the feel of the game's dynamic.

You tell me how it can be fixed. This was the purpose in creating this thread.

Alright so, I could create a compelling argument around the idea that a naked non-geared Necromancer can also create "waiting game" effects by using the 2x dodge rolls he has, but in reality that scenario is nothing in comparison to the two classes at the top of the list who truly have too much invuln cycling, and that is Ele & Mes. This is like a highly identified fact amongst anyone who plays this game's pvp.

When discussing balance, sometimes it is mandatory to mention how the class/build compares in balance between pvp, wvw. and pve. Throwing a comment like this at me is a copout alternative to actually responding to the strong point that I made.

Mesmer is and always has been one of the best duelists off-node as well as +ers.

As much is obvious if you were to take the time to watch or play against some of the better Mesmers players in the game.

It doesn't contradict anything. You're taking things out of context, selectively mentioning or not mentioning certain aspects of my statement, and stating some misinformation in general.

1. Vindi & Spellbreaker are not considered better in conquest than Catalyst. At worst they are seen as equals, but most people would probably say that Catalyst has higher performance value actually.
2. A great deal of Vindi & Spellbraker sustain is sheer mobility and/or CC stopping power. Bringing these two classes into this discussion has little to do with the original discussion about invuln effects and how they effect the dynamic & feel of the game's combat.

Some of you guys tunnel vision these forum discussions with class defense too hard.

If you were to calmly take the time and reread what I've been saying, I've been pointing out that invuln effects are lazy balancing, it isn't fun to play against, and it's actually hurting the viability of classes who they are choosing to balance combat prowess with more and more invuln, because then those classes can't hold nodes.

Take a couple steps back man.

Read what I'm saying before arguing about something I never said at all.

 

I have read everything you wrote.
It boils down to too much blocks, too much invuln cant hit, annoying, powerfull, nerf.

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

literally press skill 5 and go behind cover. Mesmer with moa is useless because a mesmer can't chase down a moa.

Different story if there's thieves or heralds around. In that case every moa converts into a kill.

I didnt mean you btw! ._.

Ur literally Senpai_mesmer.9000 at this point. 😅  Theres alot of MEMEsmers running around with double moa ganking you and then thinking their the 🐐 tho 😄

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

There are so many things you've failed to mention here which are by far the major culprits, like everything on Conjure Earth Shield or Ele Focus #5 or Stone heart, ect ect.

I did not neglect to mention those things, I mentioned things that block/make you invulnerable (and I included reflects for good measure), because you specifically said that this is what you had a problem with after I questioned you on why you didn't include tools Holo or Vindicator. Quote: "The builds I am referencing in this thread are the builds in the game that can simultaneously offense while defensing, while being virtually immune to all damage."

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I also never said I wanted anything removed. What I did is I pointed out how tossing more and more invuln effects or small effects that can be stacked to create invulnerability while simultaneously being able to maintain offensive pressure while being invuln, was hurting the feel of the game's dynamic.

You tell me how it can be fixed. This was the purpose in creating this thread.

I'm asking to try to be slightly more specific because right now your post mostly just comes off as "ele and mes are annoying, qq". To be clear, I have no problem if you want certain things removed, for instance I have previously advocated for removing Distortion on signets and I did not like the addition of Distortion to Virtuoso.

Let's look at questions like:

* Do you only have a problem with "attacking while defensing" or not (you have been unclear on this point)

* Do you only have a problem with Virtuoso or Chrono too? Both power and condi/bunekr Chrono?

* How do you explain that these classes are not meta as roamers or duelists? Spellbreaker for instance has a winning matchup into both. You say "in my opinion both of these classes are overboard lately in terms of off-node combat potential" but this doesn't seem to be borne out in the game, at least in sPvP.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Alright so, I could create a compelling argument around the idea that a naked non-geared Necromancer can also create "waiting game" effects by using the 2x dodge rolls he has, but in reality that scenario is nothing in comparison to the two classes at the top of the list who truly have too much invuln cycling, and that is Ele & Mes. This is like a highly identified fact amongst anyone who plays this game's pvp.

I don't know if you are talking about Virtuoso here, but assuming we are talking about the current Mesmer meta builds which is condi/bunker chrono, this isn't really true, there is no consensus at all that it has more waiting frames than something like Vindicator. Also, shouldn't stealth count as a waiting game? In that case ranger is a big culprit.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

When discussing balance, sometimes it is mandatory to mention how the class/build compares in balance between pvp, wvw. and pve. Throwing a comment like this at me is a copout alternative to actually responding to the strong point that I made.

No. This is a copout. Explain the issue you have with it in PvP without bringing WvW or PvE into it.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Mesmer is and always has been one of the best duelists off-node as well as +ers.

First of all, why duel off-node in PvP? Second of all, "one of the best +1ers" could be true but is that an issue? Thief and Rev have historically been better, a while back Willbender was far better and right now, Untamed is way better. Also, as I touched on above, which Mesmer builds do you think have too much of the "waiting game"? Virtuoso, core/bunker Chrono, power Chrono, condi core, power core? All of them?

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

As much is obvious if you were to take the time to watch or play against some of the better Mesmers players in the game.

This is very silly. You do not know anything about Mesmer.

Untamed is a way better off-node duelist. Condi/bunker chrono isn't a great off-node build. Neither is Virtuoso because you cannot chase. Yes, you can kite around and survive but won't get a kill and this has low value in PvP (and it's not like spb, vindi, engi can't kite and survive offnode).

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It doesn't contradict anything. You're taking things out of context, selectively mentioning or not mentioning certain aspects of my statement, and stating some misinformation in general.

1. Vindi & Spellbreaker are not considered better in conquest than Catalyst. At worst they are seen as equals, but most people would probably say that Catalyst has higher performance value actually.

This is fair, I meant to say that chrono is worse in conquest. Cata is probably equal, it brings more to teamfights but is worse as a sidenode duelist. Your statement is still contradictory however "Builds that are good at conquest are the builds that are the best at surviving focused pressure, whether that is from superior disengagement factors or superior sheer sustain factors. This highlights how strong invulnerability is" because if that were the case, the classes with invulnerability would obviously reign supreme, but they do not. The fact that they do not perform better than vindi/spb actually highlights how inconsequential having acces to invulnerability can be to overall conquest viability - your statement is thus false.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. A great deal of Vindi & Spellbraker sustain is sheer mobility and/or CC stopping power. Bringing these two classes into this discussion has little to do with the original discussion about invuln effects and how they effect the dynamic & feel of the game's combat.

Then don't say "This highlights how strong invulnerability is".

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Some of you guys tunnel vision these forum discussions with class defense too hard.

I have made more concrete nerf suggestions to Mesmer than you ever will.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

If you were to calmly take the time and reread what I've been saying,

Get off your high horse. What you have been saying is mostly filler with little specifics, I could reread it 10 times and there wouldn't be more substance.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I've been pointing out that invuln effects are lazy balancing, it isn't fun to play against, and it's actually hurting the viability of classes who they are choosing to balance combat prowess with more and more invuln, because then those classes can't hold nodes.

I'm asking for more specifics rather than what amounts to "Mesmer is annoying I can't hit it :(".

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Take a couple steps back man.

Read what I'm saying before arguing about something I never said at all.

I have responded to direct quotes, stop slithering.

Edited December 13, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

And THIS is the core point to be made ^

All these people trying to argue in here need to take a step back and reevaluate what's being said.

What is being pointed out in this thread is that although adding more invulns to a class may quickly bolster it up combat wise to be able to compete against stronger classes, it creates an effect where the more invulns that are slapped onto it, the worse it gets at conquest node holding, and the more obnoxious & boring it gets for people to fight against it. It's just not a good design philosophy.

No one is saying anything about nerfing Eles & Mes into the ground, we're talking about better game design here. For example you've said several times now about replacing some invulns with blocks, which allows for counter play but also would allow an Ele to be better at holding a node.

Ok, so replacing the invuln on Earth Shield #5 with a block would make you happy then? Because as far as I know that's the only invuln on Cata. But I have a sneaking suspicion you would not consider that enough. Should Distortion also become a block? Because that is the only invuln on condi/bunker Chrono.

Edited December 13, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I didnt mean you btw! ._.

Ur literally Senpai_mesmer.9000 at this point. 😅  Theres alot of MEMEsmers running around with double moa ganking you and then thinking their the 🐐 tho 😄

 

I know you didn't, but I genuinely love me a good moa. It gave me some of the most hilarious matches I remember.

[Leonidrex.5649]

he says he dislikes defending while attacking while being a ranger main who is always attacking with the pet.
no matter if he is blocking, dodging or stealthed.
Sus

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

5 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

im waiting for this one guy that will step in and scream:

"1 Stack of stabi is all it takes.  Moa isnt even strong, just dodge it or have stabi, duh."

 Moa out of stealth is disgusting... XD  Grav well is alot stronger... we get it... but eating a double moa out of stealth and getting shattered to death.... just feels cheap.

 

 

 

Salty Mesmermain.1234 is Typing.....

This is a problem of character models not rendering from stealth quickly enough in GW2. A related issue is when you get bursted by a teleporting rev before their character model appears on you.

Edited December 13, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Dr Meta.3158]

I suppose I'll give me take on it as briefly as I can for time's sake.

First I think mesmer and elementalist across their core and elite professions aren't as powerful as the meta classes even in an isolated 1v1 situation. So that's out of the way.

Secondly this is more along the focus of attack and defense at the same time which isn't just isolated to elementalist and mesmer. Every class does it to some degree usually in the forms of attacks with evasion frames leading up the the actual hit or the stronger variant of evasion frames during the hits of multihit attacks themselves which also splits into two: stationary and locked to target. The most powerful being stacking these multihit evasion attacks with damage multipliers as you can do on revenant and soul beast to which you can often kill many people from full health in that one attack if they're out of defenses. Guardian professions, Necromancer and Reaper are fundamentally made to do this via aegis, multi block abilities or through shroud. Then lastly of course you have invulnerability that doesn't prevent you from attacking and these come in two forms, the type that only allows you to use instantaneous skills and the ones that let you free cast whatever.

Now except the invulnerability skills, all of the other defense skills can be stopped by some means the less obvious being locked to target evasion and evade into strike skills being stopped by a conjured wall (just walk away from stationary evades) and shroud being removed through damage or configuration (Moa).

So invulnerability is obviously the most powerful defense because nothing can stop it and the obvious counterplay is the self imposed locked out of skills to which the invulnerability just buys you time to reposition and get other cooldowns back.  Invulnerability while being free to attack is bad game design. Multiple access to invulnerability while being free to attack is horrible game design.

Counterplay is crucial for a fun and healthy competitive environment because player agency is always at the forefront. Once player agency is taken away, doesn't matter how strong the user of the agency stripping ability is altogether, the fun is lost and frustration ensues.

So ultimately it isn't about power and it isn't so much about it being only annoying, but rather highlighting an issue that is a problem regardless of the game. 

Mesmer and elementalist and especially mesmer needs better defenses that aren't game breaking.

 

And Moa is also bad game design.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I suppose I'll give me take on it as briefly as I can for time's sake.

First I think mesmer and elementalist across their core and elite professions aren't as powerful as the meta classes even in an isolated 1v1 situation. So that's out of the way.

Secondly this is more along the focus of attack and defense at the same time which isn't just isolated to elementalist and mesmer. Every class does it to some degree usually in the forms of attacks with evasion frames leading up the the actual hit or the stronger variant of evasion frames during the hits of multihit attacks themselves which also splits into two: stationary and locked to target. The most powerful being stacking these multihit evasion attacks with damage multipliers as you can do on revenant and soul beast to which you can often kill many people from full health in that one attack if they're out of defenses. Guardian professions, Necromancer and Reaper are fundamentally made to do this via aegis, multi block abilities or through shroud. Then lastly of course you have invulnerability that doesn't prevent you from attacking and these come in two forms, the type that only allows you to use instantaneous skills and the ones that let you free cast whatever.

Now except the invulnerability skills, all of the other defense skills can be stopped by some means the less obvious being locked to target evasion and evade into strike skills being stopped by a conjured wall (just walk away from stationary evades) and shroud being removed through damage or configuration (Moa).

So invulnerability is obviously the most powerful defense because nothing can stop it and the obvious counterplay is the self imposed locked out of skills to which the invulnerability just buys you time to reposition and get other cooldowns back.  Invulnerability while being free to attack is bad game design. Multiple access to invulnerability while being free to attack is horrible game design.

Counterplay is crucial for a fun and healthy competitive environment because player agency is always at the forefront. Once player agency is taken away, doesn't matter how strong the user of the agency stripping ability is altogether, the fun is lost and frustration ensues.

So ultimately it isn't about power and it isn't so much about it being only annoying, but rather highlighting an issue that is a problem regardless of the game. 

Mesmer and elementalist and especially mesmer needs better defenses that aren't game breaking.

 

And Moa is also bad game design.

Ele doesn't have invuln that lets you attack during it

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I did not neglect to mention those things, I mentioned things that block/make you invulnerable (and I included reflects for good measure), because you specifically said that this is what you had a problem with after I questioned you on why you didn't include tools Holo or Vindicator. Quote: "The builds I am referencing in this thread are the builds in the game that can simultaneously offense while defensing, while being virtually immune to all damage."

This implies that you believe Stone Heart, Conjure Earth Shield, and Obsidian Flesh are things that cannot be used defensively while also being offensive. Ele is a class that has a plethora of attacks with lingering effects that can be stacked for relatively long durations while the Ele sits in it and invulns, while AoE durations apply moderate attrition damage.

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I'm asking to try to be slightly more specific because right now your post mostly just comes off as "ele and mes are annoying, qq". To be clear, I have no problem if you want certain things removed, for instance I have previously advocated for removing Distortion on signets and I did not like the addition of Distortion to Virtuoso.

Let's look at questions like:

* Do you only have a problem with "attacking while defensing" or not (you have been unclear on this point)

* Do you only have a problem with Virtuoso or Chrono too? Both power and condi/bunekr Chrono?

Historically in this forum, trying to give detailed suggestions on how to fix a class when you really don't main that class, will result in a lot of backlash from players who actually do main those classes, because they possess a much deeper understanding of the mechanics of those classes, and generally have better feedback for how to fix problems for those classes. This is why I simply pointed out the problems I am seeing from the standpoint of a player who is playing against those classes, and have specifically stated twice now, "You tell me how to fix it." So far @Sahne.6950 is the only Ele main who has given good feedback on a way not to nerf, but to alter the Ele play, by changing some invulns to blocks. This would allow more counterplay vs. Ele but also allow an Ele more node hold presence because it won't lose progress every time it has to invuln. I thought this was a good suggestion not only for Ele play, but also for Mesmer play. The biggest problem Mesmer players have is that they think they are "useless at node play" and that is because their class has been given waaay too many invuln effects to balance their combat prowess, which makes them bad at holding nodes because invuln makes you lose node cap progress. If Mesmer was to have some of that altered into something else, then Mesmers could hold nodes again. Now if we could get some Mesmer main feedback that is constructive & objective rather than biased class defense, we'd have a discussion.

I don't know why you keep insinuating that "I want things removed". For the second time now I am pointing out to you, that I never said anything like that. I only pointed out a problem I see & feel while playing the game, and then said to the community: "You tell me how to fix it."

There is nothing I have been unclear on. I have stated the same things over and over in this thread. 

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I don't know if you are talking about Virtuoso here, but assuming we are talking about the current Mesmer meta builds which is condi/bunker chrono, this isn't really true, there is no consensus at all that it has more waiting frames than something like Vindicator. Also, shouldn't stealth count as a waiting game? In that case ranger is a big culprit.

Did you hear me complain at all in this thread about Chronobunker? No, I didn't. This thread is entirely focused on a discussion about invulnerability and small effects that can be stacked that essentially create & mimic invulnerability.

You are still too focused on the idea of "What is meta and what isn't and if it isn't meta it shouldn't be complained about" which isn't the best mind frame to be in while discussing pvp balance. First of all, metabattle.com is highly biased and shows favoritism towards only what Arenanet partnered streamers choose to play, when listing metas. The truth is that there are just as many builds not listed in meta as there are listed in the meta, that should actually be listed as metas. Bringing up what is listed as meta and what isn't, is not really a good basis for argument in this discussion. 

You're still doing that thing again where you're trying to compare Vindicator's & Ranger's defenses to something like Virtuoso or Catalyst. Once again I'll say to you: "I could make a compelling argument about how a naked Necromancer with 2x dodge rolls is creating a waiting game" but quite obviously this is nothing on par with the kind bunkering that a Catalyst or Virtuoso is capable of.

And for some reason you seem to be confused on why invulnerability is different than stealth. Alright man, when you're invuln you can't take damage and you have 100% reliable stability that cannot be boon corrupted or removed or have its intensity stack bottom out under you. When you are stealth you can still get hit by anything & everything and can still get CC'd. Stealth is not invulnerability. I wouldn't even categorize stealth as a sustain mechanism, it's more of a gank & disengage mechanism. Again, you can still easily hit players who are in stealth with any attack that does not require an actual target.

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

No. This is a copout. Explain the issue you have with it in PvP without bringing WvW or PvE into it.

I did, like 6x now.

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

First of all, why duel off-node in PvP? Second of all, "one of the best +1ers" could be true but is that an issue? Thief and Rev have historically been better, a while back Willbender was far better and right now, Untamed is way better. Also, as I touched on above, which Mesmer builds do you think have too much of the "waiting game"? Virtuoso, core/bunker Chrono, power Chrono, condi core, power core? All of them?

Off node conflicts happen all the time in conquest, whether you want it to or not, it happens all of the time man.

No one said anything about the Mesmer's + power being a problem.

No need to argue about opinions. Each +er has its own niche strengths, weaknesses, and niche reasons to use or not use depending on the match up & team comps in play.

Virtuoso and Chronobunker are the biggest Mesmer culprits right now. Keep in mind I am talking about this from the standpoint of higher tiered play, at least like P2+ environments. When players utilize these class kits in an optimized way, these builds create situations where they are actually invulnerable in 1v1 situations, even when you have a best player vs. a best player. Even in 2v1 situations these build structures when wielded in high tiered environments simply have too much raw survivability for living too long and having way too easy to disengagement factors.

Even Grimjack in a different thread recently stated that Chronobunker counters Catalyst on a node, even if the Catalyst plays perfectly. This is what I'm talking about here, this is the very essence of this thread, alright? GW2 competitive modes are losing counterplayability that relies on skill factors for who wins or losses, and are headed into a direction where some classes are just simply invulnerable to other classes, even in environments where the best players are against the best players. These kind of combat engagements are dull, boring, and predictable. This is not good game design. This is all largely happening when they do things like pack waaaay too much anti-projectile on some class/build and now he is virtually invulnerable against anything projectile based unless he lags or makes some incredible error in his keystrokes. Or when traits are granted like Stone Heart that generally equate to being virtually invulnerable to anything that relies on prec/feroc, unless the Ele goes AFK or DCs. Or w/e other effects that equate to quite seriously being invulnerable vs. certain damage types, CCs, or entire classes/build structures. The game did not used to be like this. Years ago, there were definitely counters that existed between classes/builds, but there was still counterplayability. Like a DH almost certainly would kill a Daredevil, but if the Daredevil was very wise, there were definitely ways to kill the DH even if it took a while to do. Back in those days, the idea of the DH vs. the Daredevil was the hardest counter we could imagine, but even the difficulty of that match for the Daredevil then, was much easier compared to the types of counters we have now, where archetype (A) just stands there and rotates a pve like defensive rotation while looking at archetype (B) and knowing that there is no way archetype (B) can drop him bellow maybe 80% before he defense cycles and heals. This is just not fun game design man. That's what this thread is talking about. Again, this is all happening largely because of Pepega invuln designs. Do you see it now? The game was much more fun when every class at least had a chance to kill every class, because counterplayability existed even if it wasn't much counterplay, it was there.

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

This is very silly. You do not know anything about Mesmer.

I'm going on 30,000 games played in GW2, I've been running Ranked & ATs and even 1v1s against the Mesmer players in NA for the past 10 years.

Make of it what you want man.

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Your statement is still contradictory however "Builds that are good at conquest are the builds that are the best at surviving focused pressure, whether that is from superior disengagement factors or superior sheer sustain factors. This highlights how strong invulnerability is" because if that were the case, the classes with invulnerability would obviously reign supreme, but they do not. The fact that they do not perform better than vindi/spb actually highlights how inconsequential having acces to invulnerability can be to overall conquest viability - your statement is thus false.

Nah, you're once again choosing to omit certain aspects of what I said in that statement to try and fuel an endless off the beaten tracks argument. Like right now you're response to my statement is insinuating that I said: "builds that are good in conquest are builds with invulnerability" but what I actually said was: "builds that are good in conquest are the builds that are the best at surviving focused pressure, whether that is from superior disengagement factors or superior sheer sustain factors. This highlights how strong invulnerability is".

So when you start talking about Vindicators & Spellbreakers, you are agreeing with my statement. You just don't realize it because you are psychologically reading into things in the way that you want to instead of literally, because you're trying to argue with me. You talking about Vindicators & Spellbreakers is like the perfect example of how true my statement was.

Furthermore, you seem to be encouraging the idea that Vindicators and Spellbreakers are somehow sustaining the way they do without invuln effects. Spellbreaker has a lot of invulnerability. Full Counter/Endure Pain = This is all invulns that happen very frequently.

Vindicator is a different case scenario. Its sustain is all packed into dodge rolls and attribute tied sustains that are active animations. Generally it's good sustain in 1v1s and sometimes 1v2s, but Vindicators still get absolutely nuked by a proper + or even in 1v1s if a CC heavy class nails it at the right time. Vindicator sustain is all active defenses like dodges and weapon skill use. Although it has a lot of that available, this is not the same thing as invulnerability and does not provide anywhere near the same level of potential damage mitigation.

For example, a Vindicator walks into mid where there are 5 players waiting to gank him. He isn't going to survive long through the amount of swings and CCs and raw DPS. He may be good in 1v1s and maybe some 1v2s, but those active skill use defenses and attribute tied sustains only, won't last very long. Something with on demand invulnerability and a teleport however, can actually survive that and disengage. Hell, a good player can stay there and kite around with good invuln use and actually distract those guys for a little bit before needing to disengage. The Vindicator can't do that because he doesn't have access to actual invulnerability. Actual invulnerability is something that provides immunity to ALL incoming DPS and CCs.

Another good example is how if a Vindicator was to walk out into WvW past a keep that had 30 ranged players up on a wall, DEs and Soulbeasts, the Vindicator is instantly dead. But a Catalyst however, could not only defend himself perpetually and never die to that ranged fire with beyond 100% anti projectile uptime, but he can also create fields & auras for allies. Even a single Swirling Winds would shield an entire zerg who were tightly packed together inside of it. Just one Catalyst can do this.

So before throwing the same arguments at me, consider what I'm talking about here about how too many invulnerable effects are going too far with creating not just class counters, but like complete class nullification.

4 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Then don't say "This highlights how strong invulnerability is".

Invulnerable effects highlight themselves as to how powerful they are.

Reread the previous case scenario about the solo Ele perpetually invulning vs. 30 ranged players on a tower.

4 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I have made more concrete nerf suggestions to Mesmer than you ever will.

Ok

4 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Get off your high horse.

Maybe you should get on one. Raise the standards of your forum conduct a bit.

Stop trying to sweat so hard & argue over every little thing you assume or read into.

I shouldn't have to type the same thing 6x over to continuously clean up a bunch of convoluted assumptions & misconceptions of my statements.

4 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I'm asking for more specifics rather than what amounts to "Mesmer is annoying I can't hit it

Bro we have like 4 pages of discussion on this now.

Come on now.

4 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I have responded to direct quotes, stop slithering.

Yes but you're trying to play some kind of attorney courtroom game where you're attempting to create arguments through a mucho grande amount of logical fallacies vs. literally everything that I say.

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 12/10/2022 at 11:42 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

invuln - invuln - evade - invuln - block - invuln - block - evade - so on and so forth, through the entire Barrage/Rapid Fire

This isn't the game failing to tell you what was happening. It told you very accurately. Likely the mes was running inspiration.

When you apply distortion to yourself, under inspiration, you also get aegis. If the mes was running blurred inscriptions as well:

 

-> Bladesong Distortion grants distortion, then Aegis. 

> Any signet press (including midnight) grants distortion, then Aegis. 

> Signet of illusions recharges Bladesong Distortion and gives you distortion, which gives you aegis (Probably.)

> Bladeturn Requiem is available for additional blocks. 

 

Distortion on virtuoso was a huge mistake. They should have focused on kite potential instead of just allowing it to facetank you, but alas we learned nothing from mirage and what happens when people can just opt out of damage situations. Pre distortion virt was a prime subject for giving portal back along with some mobility so they could be interactive. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Ok, so replacing the invuln on Earth Shield #5 with a block would make you happy then? Because as far as I know that's the only invuln on Cata. But I have a sneaking suspicion you would not consider that enough. Should Distortion also become a block? Because that is the only invuln on condi/bunker Chrono.

It's not that simple. But if you insist on me giving some off the top of my head feedback, I'd say this:

1. Conjured Weapons no longer lay an extra weapon at your feet. You get one cast, use it wisely. This way Ele stacks can't binge on each other's 2nd weapons.
2. The #5 invuln on CES should be downgraded into more like Endure Pain, where although it makes you immune to physical, you can still take condi damage and be CC'd.
3. The massive amount of anti-projectile uptime that Ele pumps out needs to be cut by a good 25%.
4. Virtuoso needs either Distortion removed, or the length of its Blocking lowered, one of the two. Chronomancer can keep Distortion, but Distortion on Signet needs to be removed. Mesmer specs in general need a rebalance to be more impactful in Conquest while being less invulnerably obnoxious combat wise.
5. Alternatively, if they don't want to tweak or mess with Ele/Mes skills, then more classes need access to unblockables that are actually practical to use instead of being on some obscure trait or utility that ruins build structures if a person tries to take it. With more unblockables DPS and CCs, it would allow counterplay to rebalance things. Again, it isn't just actual invulnerability skills that is the problem, it is also all the other things deny single attack types, like anti-projectiles or blocks vs. melee. More unblockables would allow more counterplay.

So this goes back to the original post before I edited it to make it clearer to understand. I had originally said this and bolded it: "Either nerf these invuln designs, or grant more unblockables to classes that don't have classes that don't have practical access".

Edited December 13, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Terrorhuz.4695 I -know- you hate it. I am aware. But keep in mind this is like one of the -main- reasons I am reserved about agreeing that resistance invalidating blinds is a hot button issue worthy of adjusting spellbreaker. This is the angle I'm looking from. This matchup is several orders of magnitude more frustrating than I think spellbreaker could ever be, just as an aside.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

26 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 This matchup is several orders of magnitude more frustrating than I think spellbreaker could ever be, just as an aside.

"This matchup" what? I'm missing something

[Dr Meta.3158]

Specifically in the daredevil and spellbreaker matchup,

Without resistance d/p daredevil walks over spellbreaker with ease

With resistance spellbreaker forces d/p daredevil to harass someone else without condi pressure and range.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Specifically in the daredevil and spellbreaker matchup,

Without resistance d/p daredevil walks over spellbreaker with ease

With resistance spellbreaker forces d/p daredevil to harass someone else without condi pressure and range.

I still think daredevil was a mistake but that's just me.

[Dr Meta.3158]

16 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I still think daredevil was a mistake but that's just me.

Black powder is the mistake.