spell breaker

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well, some time it would also be nice to see people accept that their class or build are just hard countered by what they face. The sPvP subforum would probably be very quiet if it happened. 

Scissors: But Rock is massively overperforming!?!?!!?!!!one1!que
Rock: DUDE! Just change your build a bit
Scissors: *Confused Pikachu clutching pearls*

Seriously, I accept that there are builds that will 100% counter me no matter how on point my gameplay is. The reverse is also true. People just refuse to accept that.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

The difference between stunbreaking and blocking/avoiding an incoming burst and stunbreaking and immediately full countering a burst, getting  resistance, stability, adrenal health, stacking slow, cripple and any other conditions on yourself on the enemy while ignoring conditions on yourself from there allowing you to proceed to chain stun as any warrior would instead of having to either make space or try to counter CC with a slower, more reactable skill.

This all proceeds into the correct play against spellbreaker is constantly kiting them and making them use their mobility + CC/damage skills to gap closer, dodging CCs, CCing them back then immediately kiting against so you don't get full countered. All of this leading to a never ending fight because you can't out damage their sustain playing that way and you can take them head on otherwise like you could any other warrior spec because even with essentially at least two entire traitlines dedicated to defense, they will both out-damage and out-sustain you in a straight on fight especially as you spend most of it unable to counterplay. And the issue of anticounterplay is the same ordeal with every other overperforming spec now and has ever existed, not just spellbreaker.

As I've said many, many, many times now across threads. Its all due to full counter. That's why no one cares about nor is playing any other warrior build. Any other warrior even with how pushed the defense traitline is now, will still die because they can be easily counterplayed. But not spellbreaker because, in case you missed it, of full counter. And any design decision affecting warrior as a whole must always take into consideration, full counter. 

And yes, one skill makes that much of a difference. Look at what the return/addition of distortion did to chronomancer/virtuoso. Another anti-counterplay skill that allows you to wreck havoc with no consequences. 

This gets into a long running criticism from me, and touches on the key reason why Spellbreaker just works better in competitive. It has a low CD active sustain skill.

That's it. That's the reason. If FC did not have the evade? It would immediately become trash.

Warrior has the third lowest amount of active sustain skills. The two classes with less active sustain can stack high amounts of damage reduction.

If warrior had a 3/4s evade on Axe 2, Hammer 4, Sword 2, and Gunsaber 2 (it does underwater btw, just not on land) then you'd see more Berserkers, Core warriors, and BSWs running around because they'd have low CD evades on several weapon bars like several other classes have.

And if Anet added those 4 evades, warrior would still have the third fewest amount of active defenses.

[Dr Meta.3158]

8 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

This gets into a long running criticism from me, and touches on the key reason why Spellbreaker just works better in competitive. It has a low CD active sustain skill.

That's it. That's the reason. If FC did not have the evade? It would immediately become trash.

Warrior has the third lowest amount of active sustain skills. The two classes with less active sustain can stack high amounts of damage reduction.

If warrior had a 3/4s evade on Axe 2, Hammer 4, Sword 2, and Gunsaber 2 (it does underwater btw, just not on land) then you'd see more Berserkers, Core warriors, and BSWs running around because they'd have low CD evades on several weapon bars like several other classes have.

And if Anet added those 4 evades, warrior would still have the third fewest amount of active defenses.

I should set you up to fight peanut or tycura. They'll show you how evasive spellbreaker can be.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

24 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I should set you up to fight peanut or tycura. They'll show you how evasive spellbreaker can be.

WWA, BC, and FC. Those are the evades. Two of them are low CD, but if you remove the evade from FC then FC crumples and Spellbreaker along with it.

[Dadnir.5038]

11 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Warrior has the third lowest amount of active sustain skills.

I do think that this is arguable.

• Evade: GS#3, Rifle#4 x2, Bull's charge, Full counter (SpB), Dragonspike mine (Bladesworn),
• Blind: LB#4 x3
• Block: Mace#2, Sword#5, Shield#5, rock guard (berserker)
• Aegis: Banner of defense, triggerguard (bladesworn)
• Strike damage invuln: Defiant stance, Endure pain
• Barrier: WH#5, Banner of defense, Last stand trait (all stances)
• Missile block: Wind of disenchantment (SpB), Cyclone trigger (Bladesworn), Electric fence (bladesworn)
• Additional Heal: Technically all traited shouts, Dolyak signet

Without forgeting:

• Endurance regen/sustain: Signet of stamina (50% regen passive, 25 active), Might make right (2 per might stack), Building momentum (15 on burst), "To the limit!" (65)
• Hard CCs: Not gonna list all of them.
• ... etc.

 

43 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The two classes with less active sustain can stack high amounts of damage reduction.

That's also arguable as necromancer is obviously one of those and the only damage reduction he go is protection + weakness while warrior have just as much access to those in sPvP. Warrior also have 10% damage reduction from hardened armor, as much armor without investment than a necromancer with full 30 carapace stacks and the possibility to add 180 from dolyak signet and 61 from shield. As for shroud's damage reduction... Rampage have it as well. There are even source of slow. Etc.

 

I do think it's a matter of perspective. The more you focus on a profession you play, the less you actually see it's wealth. This is because we tend to focus on what's known to "work" and feel "good" while forgeting what's seldom used or feel "bad" to play.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

24 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do think that this is arguable.

• Evade: GS#3, Rifle#4 x2, Bull's charge, Full counter (SpB), Dragonspike mine (Bladesworn),
• Blind: LB#4 x3
• Block: Mace#2, Sword#5, Shield#5, rock guard (berserker)
• Aegis: Banner of defense, triggerguard (bladesworn)
• Strike damage invuln: Defiant stance, Endure pain
• Barrier: WH#5, Banner of defense, Last stand trait (all stances)
• Missile block: Wind of disenchantment (SpB), Cyclone trigger (Bladesworn), Electric fence (bladesworn)
• Additional Heal: Technically all traited shouts, Dolyak signet

Without forgeting:

• Endurance regen/sustain: Signet of stamina (50% regen passive, 25 active), Might make right (2 per might stack), Building momentum (15 on burst), "To the limit!" (65)
• Hard CCs: Not gonna list all of them.
• ... etc.

It's not arguable:

On 4/29/2022 at 11:54 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Exactly. Evades, blocks, reflects, full invulns/distortion, stealths. Not counting traits, just weapon skills, profession mechanics, and utilities.

Evades. Land only.
Rev: 6. 7 if you include Vindi dodge.
Guard: 2
Engi: 1
Ranger: 10
Necro: 1
Thief: 9, 10 if you include daredevil dodge.
Ele: 12
Mesmer: 4, 5 if you count Mirage dodge.
Warrior: 5

Blocks/Aegis:

Rev: 2
Guard: 13
Engi: 5
Ranger: 3
Necro: 1
Thief: 5
Ele: 2
Mesmer: 8
Warrior: 6

Reflects/projectile block/projectile destruction:
Rev: 3
Guard: 8
Engi: 8
Ranger: 4
Necro: 2
Thief: 5
Ele: 9
Mesmer: 4
Warrior: 5

Distortion (obviously Mesmer only)
7

Shroud based Mechanic:
Necro: 2
Thief: 1

Full Invuln:
Guard: 1
Engi: 1
Ele: 3

I am not counting Psuedo Invulns like EP or Signet of Stone as condi still works on them.

Blind:
Rev: 2
Guard: 6
Engi: 9
Ranger: 8
Necro: 9
Thief: 14
Ele: 12
Mesmer: 7
Warrior: 2

Stealth, not counting blasting smoke fields or traits:
Engi: 2
Thief: 17
Ranger: 1
Mesmer: 5 ("Hide-In-Shadows")

Totals:
Rev: 14 <- Rev is able to stack high amounts of total damage reduction via traits for high/perma durations.
Guard: 30 <- Blue child that is favored by Anet.
Engi: 26 <- Not including Flashbang FYI. Not including the barrier spam either.
Ranger: 24 <- can also perma immob you and stand where you cant hit back.
Necro: 15, but two of those are shrouds which are the single best defense in the game that allow you to do offense at the same time making this misleading. Also can barrier spam and just not take damage.
Thief: 50, one of which is a shroud. See above comment. 
Ele: 38. Can also barrier spam and just not take damage.
Mesmer: 36
Warrior: 18 <- Does not have a mode that completely covers HP while going on full offense. Cannot stack high durations of high damage reduction. Does get some barrier. Had high resustain until Feb2020, that got nerfed. Now BSW is the only spec than has High resustain and barely can reach the adult table.

The three lowest are Rev, Necro and Warrior. As I note above Rev can build very high damage reduction for long periods of time. Shroud lets necro face tank damage while their HP bar is protected as well as getting large barrier access. Both of those are more powerful than warrior's 4 channeled blocks/evade that deny them the ability to attack during the duration.

As to endurance, most classes have access to vigor, vigor like effects, or straight endurance generation. Warrior is not alone in that. In regards to the Hard CC, I have not tallied those. It would be useful to do so.

24 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

That's also arguable as necromancer is obviously one of those and the only damage reduction he go is protection + weakness while warrior have just as much access to those in sPvP. Warrior also have 10% damage reduction from hardened armor, as much armor without investment than a necromancer with full 30 carapace stacks and the possibility to add 180 from dolyak signet and 61 from shield. As for shroud's damage reduction... Rampage have it as well. There are even source of slow. Etc.

Shroud has a build in 50% damage reduction on top of covering the HP bar. Rampage doesn't cover the HP bar nor can it be upkept for long periods of time, which is something that Rev and Necro can do.

 

24 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do think it's a matter of perspective. The more you focus on a profession you play, the less you actually see it's wealth. This is because we tend to focus on what's known to "work" and feel "good" while forgeting what's seldom used or feel "bad" to play.

That is certainly part of it, but playing multiple professions like I do also lets me see the wealth that others think doesn't exist for their own professions. Like that one guy spouting in the PvP forums that Life Reap with Reaper on berserker ammy can somehow only do 4k on a crit which I know for a fact to be false from my own gameplay, not on a light golem.

People obviously do focus on specific things that they do not like or want nerfed, but lose sight of the broader picture. That active defense tally I posted above is a useful tool to have handy to put things into focus. There does need to be one for Hard CC. I did not include that in the pool of active defenses as it is also as much to do with being able to deal damage as it is in mitigating damage. Weakness uptime is also something not included in that tally.

[Dadnir.5038]

46 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

In regards to the Hard CC, I have not tallied those. It would be useful to do so.

There is also abilities that allow one to disengage that you can find on most professions. The defensive means are numerous and, while your list cover many of them, it doesn't cover all. You'd also need to make a "per minute" access to have a proper picture of the various professions accessibility to those defensive means.

Also, while highly eratic, one could say that there is more than 1 block/aegis source on necromancer. After all, anything than convert condition into a boon can produce an aegis with a bit of luck (that's especially true when facing condi guard or condi elementalists).

Edit: Where do you put defiant stance on warrior? It does make you immun to both condition and strike damage after all. Same goe for herald's infuse light.

Additionally, counting skills 1 by one following your criteria, I count 20 21 (I missed aegis on pistol) for warrior, not just 18. You missed some. Yet I only see a single blind source on warrior's active skills... there must be an issue somewhere.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

27 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

There is also abilities that allow one to disengage that you can find on most professions. The defensive means are numerous and, while your list cover many of them, it doesn't cover all. You'd also need to make a "per minute" access to have a proper picture of the various professions accessibility to those defensive means.

I covered evades, teleports, and shadowsteps. Base movement skills I did not include unless they included a blind, block, or evade.

27 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Also, while highly eratic, one could say that there is more than 1 block/aegis source on necromancer. After all, anything than convert condition into a boon can produce an aegis with a bit of luck (that's especially true when facing condi guard or condi elementalists).

That is hard to quantify. The same arguement would be made for fears when tallying up Hard CCs.

27 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Edit: Where do you put defiant stance on warrior? It does make you immun to both condition and strike damage after all. Same goe for herald's infuse light.

I did not include heal skills or base dodge counts as they are uniform. Mirage should be getting its second dodge back soon since Anet is removing the 'drawbacks' from especs.  Infuse Light and Defiant Stance being reliant on being attacked to get healed limits them against competent opponents, but again, since they are heal skills I did not include them. If they were utility skills, then sure. They are also not complete invulns as the player can still be CC'd.

27 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Additionally, counting skills 1 by one following your criteria, I count 20 for warrior, not just 18. You missed some. Yet I only see a single blind source on warrior's active skills... there must be an issue somewhere.

This tally was from April, so anything added since then would not be in there. I also did not include pseudo invluns like EP or Signet of Stone as condis and CCs still work on them.  The tally also did not include traits, with the exception of distortion on signet use from Mesmer (deduct 6 from the Mesmer tally then, though I think Virt gained some distortion since then) . I also did not include the UW defenses in the tallies. There are 3 evades and a block UW for Warrior. 

[Hotride.2187]

4 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

The difference between stunbreaking and blocking/avoiding an incoming burst and stunbreaking and immediately full countering a burst, getting  resistance, stability, adrenal health, stacking slow, cripple and any other conditions on yourself on the enemy while ignoring conditions on yourself from there allowing you to proceed to chain stun as any warrior would instead of having to either make space or try to counter CC with a slower, more reactable skill.

How odd that all this but adrenal health (in its current form) was in the game already a few months ago, yet all you saw was bladesworn for war. And before bladesworn you essentially didn't see war played.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

5 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

And what other builds exactly are you using to compare?

Berserker, which was just nuked out of existence the moment it was seen (unless condi, where you could run better builds on other professions)?

Core, where the only professions that were viable as core were guard and necro?

Not a tall bar to say "spb did better".

Yes, the pre-EOD warrior builds were the ones I was comparing SpB to.  I agree it's not a tall bar, but that just demonstrates how weak Warrior's core abilities and performance are.  So what's the difference between Core/Berserker and SpB?  Full Counter primarily.  

 

5 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

No idea what you think can carry spb other than dagger and FC. Thats the only thing it brought to the table pre-eod, along with magebane tether vs thief. Its not like core war utils and weapons did anything.

So...we agree?  I'm not really sure what we're arguing about.

 

My point has always been that FC (and all its attendant effects and benefits) is really strong and is the reason SpB outperforms other Warrior specs.  It's not that Defense (or any other part of Warrior's kit) is overpowered; however, SpB is able to maximize the benefit from Defense in a way that other Warrior specs struggle to do.

[Hotride.2187]

6 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

My point has always been that FC (and all its attendant effects and benefits) is really strong

Just by looking at the ability, yes. On any war other than defense spb? Not really. Nerf it instead of defense, and now every war is a defense spb. And I'm guessing the nerfs will continue after that, since what can you do about FC? Set its CD to 20 sec?

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Just by looking at the ability, yes. On any war other than defense spb? Not really. Nerf it instead of defense, and now every war is a defense spb. And I'm guessing the nerfs will continue after that, since what can you do about FC? Set its CD to 20 sec?

Just increase the CD to 10s like it's supposed to be. 8.75s is a bug.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Hard CC tallies. What is not included: UW Weapons. Not counting thief stolen skills from NPCs. Not counting Engi toolbelt skills from Racial skills. I'll include any CCs gained from traits, transforms, corruptions here:

Daze:
Guardian: 2
Revenant: 2
Warrior: 9
Engineer: 4
Ranger: 14
Thief: 9
Ele: 5
Mesmer: 10
Necro: 2

Interestingly Warrior is in the top three, but not the top.

Stun:
Guardian: 1
Revenant: 0
Warrior: 6
Engineer: 8
Ranger: 5
Thief: 4
Ele: 15 (A lot of that is from various Shocking Aura sources, go to that Aura page as well for reference)
Mesmer: 3
Necro: 3

Again, interestingly in the top 3 but not the top.

Knockdown:
Guardian: 3
Revenant: 3
Warrior: 6
Engineer: 2
Ranger: 8
Thief: 4
Ele: 4
Mesmer: 1
Necro: 2

Again, in the top three but not the top.

Pull:
Guardian: 5
Revenant: 2
Warrior: 1
Engineer: 4
Ranger: 4
Thief: 2
Ele: 3
Mesmer: 2
Necro: 2

Dead last here. Warrior really does need more pulls.

Knockback:
Guardian: 8
Revenant: 1
Warrior: 4
Engineer: 4
Ranger: 8
Thief: 1
Ele: 5
Mesmer: 2
Necro: 0

Not even in the top 3 again.

Launch:
Guardian: 1
Revenant: 1
Warrior: 2
Engineer: 10
Ranger: 5
Thief: 2
Ele: 4
Mesmer: 0
Necro: 1

Fear: Note, you'll have to follow the boon corruption links to find all of them. Not counting condition transfers or copies.
Guardian: 0
Revenant: 0
Warrior: 1
Engineer: 0
Ranger: 3
Thief: 4
Ele: 0
Mesmer: 0
Necro: 12

Obviously a Necro themed CC so this result is as it should be, no complaints from me or anyone else I think.

Taunt:
Guardian: 1
Revenant: 1
Warrior: 1
Engineer: 0
Ranger: 1
Thief: 0
Ele: 0
Mesmer: 2
Necro: 0

This one is very rare.  Only 5 professions have it, and most only have 1. I feel like this is something that Warrior SHOULD have in spades, but we have just the one.

Float:
Gaurdian: 0
Revenant: 0
Warrior: 0
Engineer: 0
Ranger: 0
Thief: 0
Ele: 2
Mesmer: 1
Necro: 1

Another rare one. Warrior doesn't come into play here. Definitely an ele themed CC.

Sink is an UW only CC, I'm not including those in the tally as one competitive mode no longer has that content.

Totals:
Guardian: 21
Revenant: 10
Warrior: 30
Engineer: 32
Ranger: 49
Thief: 26
Ele: 38
Mesmer: 21
Necro: 23

Warrior isn't even in the top three in total Hard CCs!

Personally, looking at this tally for Hard CCs it is obvious to me that Taunt needs to be more prevalent in the game and that Warrior needs a lot of it.

 

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Just increase the CD to 10s like it's supposed to be. 8.75s is a bug.

This wont do anything.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

5 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

This wont do anything.

You might be surprised. It's a 15% nerf to everything tied to FC that I listed above. That's significant. Moreover, the goal is to "tone it down a bit" not "nuke it into oblivion"

[eXruina.4956]

spellbreaker is admittedly a strong elite spec, full counter is a very strong mechanic, it has reveal in magebane tether and it has boon strip. tools warrior desperately needs.

 

many of warrior's balance woes we've sufferend over the years actually stems from them trying to indirectly nerf spellbreaker. they effectively trashed core, and every other warrior spec in the process.

 

in the end it still got put down by feb 2020 along with the rest of warrior, and without the enablers from oct 2022, it still wouldn't be viable.

 

but honestly if i were comparing classes, spellbreaker is a lesser, specially considering all the broken kitten that's out there right now.

Edited January 2, 2023 by eXruina.4956

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

spellbreaker is admittedly a strong elite spec, full counter is a very strong mechanic, it has reveal in magebane tether and it has boon strip. tools warrior desperately needs.

 

many of warrior's balance woes we've sufferend over the years actually stems from them trying to indirectly nerf spellbreaker. they effectively trashed core, and every other warrior spec in the process.

 

in the end it still got put down by feb 2020 along with the rest of warrior, and without the enablers from oct 2022, it still wouldn't be viable.

 

but honestly if i were comparing classes, spellbreaker is the lesser of all the broken kitten that's out there right now.

Harb shroud 5 is at the top of my list.

 

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

This gets into a long running criticism from me, and touches on the key reason why Spellbreaker just works better in competitive. It has a low CD active sustain skill.

That's it. That's the reason. If FC did not have the evade? It would immediately become trash.

Warrior has the third lowest amount of active sustain skills. The two classes with less active sustain can stack high amounts of damage reduction.

If warrior had a 3/4s evade on Axe 2, Hammer 4, Sword 2, and Gunsaber 2 (it does underwater btw, just not on land) then you'd see more Berserkers, Core warriors, and BSWs running around because they'd have low CD evades on several weapon bars like several other classes have.

And if Anet added those 4 evades, warrior would still have the third fewest amount of active defenses.

*plays a statball class*

"nooo, I need more low cd evades! On multiple weaponsets! And with 4s weapon swap!" 😉

Edited January 2, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Dr Meta.3158]

3 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

How odd that all this but adrenal health (in its current form) was in the game already a few months ago, yet all you saw was bladesworn for war. And before bladesworn you essentially didn't see war played.

I did, just only good warriors played it and did quite well in higher tiers of play but even they only played spellbreaker because spellbreaker was the only warrior that could handle hardstuck tourney.

If I were to compare the 2-3 spellbreakers I usually play with whom push me to my limits when practicing again compared to random ones I come across in say unranked or the FFA arena, the difference is massive. They were all so trivially easy and any that dared playing anything other than spellbreaker could easily have a second person helping them and still lose without doing anything.

I've had to come to accept years ago back when we were camped in private arenas dueling with power heralds, strength spellbreakers, and d/p daredevil that those builds are quite difficult and quite technical to pull off correctly. When played well they were extremely oppressive but by the average player, they were so ineffective that again, they could have help and still accomplish nothing.

So I mean really all the rev, warrior, thief needs buffs builds were of no surprise to me but I also knew that any buffs that they got to make the average player able to contribute meaningfully would make the players that actually knew how to play these builds disgustingly broken - as they are now.

So in summary, yeah I saw spellbreaker played before the buffs all the time by the same few people that not only could make it work, but made it work really well.  Its just not easy to so the masses didn't play it. Now its very easy so the masses play it; a lot. But only spellbreaker... because of full counter. Because in spite of the mess that spellbreaker had caused now in tandem with catalyst, warrior still sucks.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[captrowdy.9561]

I’ve been playing spellbreaker for two years in pvp. It’s always been in a good spot. Barely anything has changed     Folks that follow the meta or whatever are just now picking up spellbreaker. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

*plays a statball class*

"nooo, I need more low cd evades! On multiple weaponsets! And with 4s weapon swap!" 😉

Those stats don't go as far as +10 evades/blinds do. Not taking the damage in the first place far exceeds having extra armor and HP any day.

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Those stats don't go as far as +10 evades/blinds do. Not taking the damage in the first place far exceeds having extra armor and HP any day.

Well, play a squishier class with more active defenses then 😄

And btw the whole "lets count active defenses" post seems a bit inconsistent. Not only it takes everything out of context just to focus on "how many" without regard of durations, cds or actual impact on the gameplay, but it also has some -imo!- weird takes, where you count "real invulns" (because if it you can take condi dmg, then it's not invuln) and then count single stealth aplications as if it's an active defense despite it not protecting from any damage. I mean, you've still put some work there, not trying to diminish that, I just think it's... possibly (but not necessarily) an intentionally skewed number to draw conclusions you want to draw. Not that I can't be wrong about that, just personal view on what I've just read.

Also "active defence" might be better in isolation, but it gets slightly more complicated when we take a stat-ball type of class which can keep healing up while using it's -even if more limited number- of active defenses. By all means, if you want equality, vouch for more active defenses while asking to balance it out with -stats. Although at this point, maybe just play another class? 😉

One way or another "lets count up how many throughout the whole class" doesn't seem like solid argument for whatever is being talked about here.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well, play a squishier class with more active defenses then 😄

And btw the whole "lets count active defenses" post seems a bit inconsistent. Not only it takes everything out of context just to focus on "how many" without the regard of durations, cds or actual impact on the gameplay, but it also has some -imo!- weird takes, where you count "real invulns" (because if it you can take condi dmg, then it's not invuln) and then count single stealth aplications as if it's an active defense despite it not protecting from any damage. I mean, you've still put some work there, not trying to diminish that, I just think it's... probably an intentionally skewed number to draw conclusions you want to draw. Not that I can't be wrong about that, just personal view on what I've just read.

Also "active defence" might be better in isolation, but it gets slightly more complicated when we take a stat-ball type of class which can keep healing up while using it's -even if more limited number- of active defenses. By all means, if you want equality, vouch for more active defenses while asking to balance it out with -stats. Although at this point, maybe just play another class? 😉

One way or another "lets count up how many throughout the whole class" doesn't seem like solid argument for whatever is being talked about here.

Hey, it's the thieves that harp on about how integral stealth is to their sustain not me, so I'll include it for them.

I play many classes Sobx, you should remember that, and yes I can and do survive better while doing more damage than when on my warrior, some classes are trivial to survive on compared to warrior despite warrior having higher stats.

My point stands, the higher base stats on warrior do not go as far as you think, and are inferior to having large amounts of evades, blinds, blocks that other classes have in spades.

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Hey, it's the thieves that harp on about how integral stealth is to their sustain not me, so I'll include it for them.

Well, I'm not talking about who says what (since if that's what we'd use as basis for anything, this forum alone will provide just about anything one would want to find), I'm talking about how you've built your "active defense count" ruleset and why I think it's pretty inconsistent.

11 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I play many classes Sobx, you should remember that, and yes I can and do survive better while doing more damage than when on my warrior, some classes are trivial to survive on compared to warrior despite warrior having higher stats.

My point stands, the higher base stats on warrior do not go as far as you think, and are inferior to having large amounts of evades, blinds, blocks that other classes have in spades.

...and that said, you don't seem too eager to drop any of them in return for more active defenses?

Edited January 2, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well, I'm not talking about who says what (since if that's what we'd use as basis for anything, this forum alone will provide just about anything one would want to find), I'm talking about how you've built your "active defense count" ruleset and why I think it's pretty inconsistent.

...and that said, you don't seem too eager to drop any of them in return for more active defenses?

It isn't that warrior needs to drop any of the stats, it's that the stats on top of it's available active defense pool is not in balance with the other professions.