After the most humiliating Monthly Automated Tournament of all time.... (read on)

[Tnanever.3192]

5 hours ago, Greyrat.2378 said:

Some of you should really take a break from the game and the forum, go touch grass oustide (or snow, depending on where you live), brew cup of tea and just chill for a minute. And I don't mean just few individuals in this topic that have expressed some understandable, yet unreasonable amount of frustration with the game.

They've announced another balance update which, I believe, will probably adresss some of the glaring issues with the current meta, so let's just patiently wait and see what will happen.
 

If you are going to overreact like this, just stop and pause for a minute. Go meditate or something, idk, but this is a bit silly to make such statements.

edit: and don't take it as an insult, just think about it for a second. It's still a game that is supposed to be fun in first place.
If you are not having fun, then take a break. It's not the end of our world (at least not yet).

 

Denying them additional purchases until they fix their broken product is now an "overreaction"???   You're a strange person.

[Greyrat.2378]

37 minutes ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

 

Denying them additional purchases until they fix their broken product is now an "overreaction"???   You're a strange person.

1) PvP community is extremely small, compared to majority of players that are mostly PvE oriented and remains unaffected/don't care about state of PvP. If you want to boycott them by not buying stuff from gem store, feel free to do so if it makes you feel better, however truth is that it's irrelevant.
2) yes, lot of people are overreacting here, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, and it's difficult to take such discussions seriously

[Tnanever.3192]

Just now, Greyrat.2378 said:

1) PvP community is extremely small, compared to majority of players that are mostly PvE oriented and remains unaffected/don't care about state of PvP. If you want to boycott them by not buying stuff from gem store, feel free to do so if it makes you feel better, however truth is that it's irrelevant.
2) yes, lot of people are overreacting here, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, and it's difficult to take such discussions seriously

1 - Irrelevant point.  Any person unsatisfied with a broken product can and should stop purchases (for more than one reason), regardless of your feelings of how effective it is at changing things.

 

2 - We're talking about players using a game for entertainment.  The company is using it as its livelihood.  It's not an overreaction to  heavily criticize a heavily broken product, and your feelings on "overreaction" are meaningless because you're not getting paid to produce the product.  Since you're just a player like the people you're criticizing, keep playing and paying if you'd like.  Nobody is suggesting otherwise.

[Greyrat.2378]

12 minutes ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

1 - Irrelevant point.  Any person unsatisfied with a broken product can and should stop purchases (for more than one reason), regardless of your feelings of how effective it is at changing things.

 

2 - We're talking about players using a game for entertainment.  The company is using it as its livelihood.  It's not an overreaction to  heavily criticize a heavily broken product, and your feelings on "overreaction" are meaningless because you're not getting paid to produce the product.  Since you're just a player like the people you're criticizing, keep playing and paying if you'd like.  Nobody is suggesting otherwise.

It is not irrelevant point in terms of having leverage on some substantial changes. Very small minority of whole playerbase simply does not have enough power to incentivize some significant change when it comes to PvP.
If anything else, past years made it crystal clear where the main focus for ANet is.
It is fine to critize the game, except that you are not criticizing whole product but only very small portion of it, which again, does not affect majority of playerbase.

If you want to be taken seriously and initiate some reasonable discussion, making claims like whole game is doomed or that ANet should apologize to whole community and face the investors is not the way to go.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Greyrat.2378

[Tnanever.3192]

Just now, Greyrat.2378 said:

It is not irrelevant point in terms of having leverage on some substantial changes. Very small minority of whole playerbase simply does not have enough power to incentivize some significant change when it comes to PvP.
If anything else, past years made it crystal clear where is the main focus for ANet is.
It is fine to critize the game, except that you are not criticizing whole product but only very small portion of it, which again, does not affect majority of playerbase.

If you want to be taken seriously and initiate some reasonable discussion, making claims like whole game is doomed or that ANet should apologize to whole community and face the investors is not the way to go.

 

You keep missing the point, or you're just strawmanning now.  Your argument is completely irrelevant because there are several reasons not to keep spending money on trash, not only the one reason of wanting to make the product better.

 

You keep bringing up PvE in a thread about a PvP problem.  Why?  Is this part of your misunderstanding or strawman tactic?  Clearly this feature is broken and is pushing some customers away.  How can any sane person have a problem with customers pointing out defects?  Very very strange.

[Greyrat.2378]

9 minutes ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

 

You keep missing the point, or you're just strawmanning now.  Your argument is completely irrelevant because there are several reasons not to keep spending money on trash, not only the one reason of wanting to make the product better.

 

You keep bringing up PvE in a thread about a PvP problem.  Why?  Is this part of your misunderstanding or strawman tactic?  Clearly this feature is broken and is pushing some customers away.  How can any sane person have a problem with customers pointing out defects?  Very very strange.

I am not sure if you understand your position here. Reason why I am bringing up PvE is because it's main focus for ANet. That means that most of their resourcers are allocated somewhere else than PvP.
You are advocating for changes that require certain amount of resourcers that are affecting very small amount of whole playerbase, which is already unfavorable position to begin with.
Either way you seem to be stuck in your own echo chamber that PvP bad = whole game is trash, and fail to listen to any reason.
I don't neccesarily disagree with your arguments but the way you present them just makes it hard to be taken seriously.

[Tnanever.3192]

Just now, Greyrat.2378 said:

I am not sure if you understand your position here. Reason why I am bringing up PvE is because it's main focus for ANet. That means that most of their resourcers are allocated somewhere else than PvP.
You are advocating for changes that require certain amount of resourcers that are affecting very small amount of whole playerbase, which is already unfavorable position to begin with.
Either way you seem to be stuck in your own echo chamber that PvP bad = whole game is trash, and fail to listen to any reason.
I don't neccesarily disagree with your arguments but the way you present them just makes it hard to be taken seriously.

 

What are you not understanding?  This is a PvP thread in a PvP forum, literally created by ANet to discuss their (very broken) PvP.

You don't decide how much ANet invests into fixing their broken PvP feature, but they've decided to create the feature and dedicate a forum to it.  It's very strange of you to keep coming back here to whine about people using their PvP forum to point out flaws in their PvP feature.

How can anyone take you seriously if you can't even use the correct forum for your posts?  LOL.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

1 hour ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

 

You seem have no concept of thresholds or scale.  Cleary this isn't chess, Einstein - but you've completely missed the point and problem.

 

The game needs to be balanced to the point where all classes are competitive and FUN to play - losing 80%+ of the time to some garbage flavor-of-the-month "meta" build is not fun, and not remotely balanced, and reveals bad development/management.  Games should primarily be determined by skill and not bad developer decisions.  If at the top end, the game was balanced enough to where the the lowest performing classes lost only ~10% more to the very highest performing classes, that would be great. We don't have anything like that whatsoever right now, genius.

 

All you did was type a wall of text defending garbage.

The game is 10 years old. Stop having such high expectations.

[Tnanever.3192]

1 minute ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

The game is 10 years old. Stop having such high expectations.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, I didn't realize they stopped doing development and ceased sales 10 years ago!!!!!  Thanks for letting me know.!!!!!!111

[solemn.9670]

In this thread: Twitter mains who can't even play cata at a competitive level complain about how others can (meanwhile: every other broken build-only bad when ele does it)

[Greyrat.2378]

28 minutes ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

 

What are you not understanding?  This is a PvP thread in a PvP forum, literally created by ANet to discuss their (very broken) PvP.

You don't decide how much ANet invests into fixing their broken PvP feature, but they've decided to create the feature and dedicate a forum to it.  It's very strange of you to keep coming back here to whine about people using their PvP forum to point out flaws in their PvP feature.

How can anyone take you seriously if you can't even use the correct forum for your posts?  LOL.

You really seem to have problems with text comprehension.  I don't disagree with the sentiment of current state of PvP, I think it's not in a good spot and I am patiently waiting for tomorrow.
I disagree with the way some people, including you, are venting their frustration which is far from being constructive criticism, and are literally overreacting.
Only thing that I find strange here is that there are still people that believe, that by throwing tantrums and making threats is going to improve the game.

[Tnanever.3192]

Just now, Greyrat.2378 said:

You really seem to have problems with text comprehension.  I don't disagree with the sentiment of current state of PvP, I think it's not in a good spot and I am patiently waiting for tomorrow.
I disagree with the way some people, including you, are venting their frustration which is far from being constructive criticism, and are literally overreacting.
Only thing that I find strange here is that there are still people that believe, that by throwing tantrums and making threats is going to improve the game.

Uh...comprehension problems?  That would be you.  Players aren't obligated to provide what is (in your erroneously-derived opinion) "constructive criticism".  Notifying a company that their product is broken is normal and useful behavior.  We don't have to design their game for them.

What's really revealing is that you think that not spending money on a broken product is a "threat" - LOL WHAT????  You're insane.

[Bear.9568]

Buff thief

[soulknight.9620]

2 hours ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

The game needs to be balanced to the point where all classes are competitive and FUN to play - losing 80%+ of the time to some garbage flavor-of-the-month "meta" build is not fun, and not remotely balanced, and reveals bad development/management.  Games should primarily be determined by skill and not bad developer decisions.  If at the top end, the game was balanced enough to where the the lowest performing classes lost only ~10% more to the very highest performing classes, that would be great. We don't have anything like that whatsoever right now, genius.

So you have statistics to back ur claims? Dont think so. 

If you loose 80% of the time its a skill issue. People that have no idea how to play cata are free kills even with this overperforming build and if you keep loosing to them - just l2p. 

As for game should be determined by skill - it already is. As a competetive player (i presume you are competetive, arent you?) you are required to master several classes to perform adequatly in different comps using different strategies. Gw2 literary doesnt gatekeep you from roling different class in spvp, unlike other mmos where gear grind is involved. So if you want to counter a cata in its current state - go cata urself and show them ur skill. A skilled non-cata could easily destroy non skilled (like 90% of them) cata with ease. 

If you in all seriousness think that a single game can come up with perfect balance without some builds/classes getting OP/UP you are delusional. Look at riot games and LoL, a cybersport game that has a focus on balancing and yet still every patch there is a champion or few that are so OP that they are constantly banned from ranked games. 

 

2 hours ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

All you did was type a wall of text defending garbage.

Then why do you play garbage? There are plenty of other games for you to spend your precious time on. Yet you somehow continue to eat the cactus and complain about it beint to pointy. 

 

Dont actually know where did you get an idea that i defend anet. My point in initial post was literary: theres always OP things in every meta, we have seen many of these, there will be a patch in few weeks, so this thread is pointless by default. 

Yet all you do is throwing insults at devs and calling gw2 garbage. Cmon man, its just a game. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

7 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

If you want balance - chess is the answer for you (although white always go first, so....)

It's actually a pretty balanced trade off.

White gets to create his play 1 move earlier, but Black actually gets the first chance to counter. In higher tiered play, if Black knows his opponent well enough and sees the proper counter to the opener, it screws White over.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Tnanever.3192]

9 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

So you have statistics to back ur claims? Dont think so. 

If you loose 80% of the time its a skill issue. People that have no idea how to play cata are free kills even with this overperforming build and if you keep loosing to them - just l2p. 

As for game should be determined by skill - it already is. As a competetive player (i presume you are competetive, arent you?) you are required to master several classes to perform adequatly in different comps using different strategies. Gw2 literary doesnt gatekeep you from roling different class in spvp, unlike other mmos where gear grind is involved. So if you want to counter a cata in its current state - go cata urself and show them ur skill. A skilled non-cata could easily destroy non skilled (like 90% of them) cata with ease. 

If you in all seriousness think that a single game can come up with perfect balance without some builds/classes getting OP/UP you are delusional. Look at riot games and LoL, a cybersport game that has a focus on balancing and yet still every patch there is a champion or few that are so OP that they are constantly banned from ranked games. 

 

Then why do you play garbage? There are plenty of other games for you to spend your precious time on. Yet you somehow continue to eat the cactus and complain about it beint to pointy. 

 

Dont actually know where did you get an idea that i defend anet. My point in initial post was literary: theres always OP things in every meta, we have seen many of these, there will be a patch in few weeks, so this thread is pointless by default. 

Yet all you do is throwing insults at devs and calling gw2 garbage. Cmon man, its just a game. 

 

Truly a garbage post from you.  Let's address your "points":

1. Statistics?  I guess the meta meme team winners are just figments of our imagination?
2. Competitive player?  Ok - go play a lower-tier class in solo queues for a few days, then play a meta class for a few days, then let us know the results.  Stop lying to yourself, it's unhealthy.
3. Why do you bring up skilled vs unskilled players?  Literally nobody ever, probably in the history of the game, said those two players should have equal win ratios against each other.  Absolute strawman by you - sad.
4. Why do I play garbage?  I don't - that's why I play other games for PvP.  This game is for PvE at the moment, due to ANet's incompetence . 
5. You, like other posters, seem to purposefully ignore the concept of thresholds and magnitude.  Having only something like a 5% or 10% absolute class advantage is not fun-destroying, but this game's PvP is nowhere near that.  There should be roughly equal chance of two roughly equally skilled players to beat each other - let's see your scourge or thief fights against catas or vindicators.  That's gonna be a laugh.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:11 PM, gkoogz.3089 said:

PvP matches are now determined by how many Catalysts there are.

Remember when this was the case but for revs, or necros, or guards, or holos, or condi mirages... Nothing new here except now its like the first time in 8 years since stacking ele has been meta and everyone loses their mind. Meanwhile rev stacking has been meta for like a dozen MATs over the last few years. Pvp went to kitten long before EoD released their mess of elite specs.

[Tnanever.3192]

57 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Remember when this was the case but for revs, or necros, or guards, or holos, or condi mirages... Nothing new here except now its like the first time in 8 years since stacking ele has been meta and everyone loses their mind. Meanwhile rev stacking has been meta for like a dozen MATs over the last few years. Pvp went to kitten long before EoD released their mess of elite specs.

...right - they still suck at balancing.  Nobody is saying we should have a different broken meta from the broken meta we have now.  We're saying we want decent balance where skill and strategy can usually be expected determine the outcome amongst roughly equal level players - and not, "I picked this class so i win" garbage.

[soulknight.9620]

1 hour ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

Truly a garbage post from you.  Let's address your "points":

1. Statistics?  I guess the meta meme team winners are just figments of our imagination?
2. Competitive player?  Ok - go play a lower-tier class in solo queues for a few days, then play a meta class for a few days, then let us know the results.  Stop lying to yourself, it's unhealthy.
3. Why do you bring up skilled vs unskilled players?  Literally nobody ever, probably in the history of the game, said those two players should have equal win ratios against each other.  Absolute strawman by you - sad.
4. Why do I play garbage?  I don't - that's why I play other games for PvP.  This game is for PvE at the moment, due to ANet's incompetence . 
5. You, like other posters, seem to purposefully ignore the concept of thresholds and magnitude.  Having only something like a 5% or 10% absolute class advantage is not fun-destroying, but this game's PvP is nowhere near that.  There should be roughly equal chance of two roughly equally skilled players to beat each other - let's see your scourge or thief fights against catas or vindicators.  That's gonna be a laugh.

1. You do know what statistics mean? 

2. So a low tier (aka bad build) nets you with worse results than higher tiers? What a surprise! Competetive players adapt to meta shifts, looks like you are not one of them, and based on p.1 you make assumptions of "meta meme team winners". Ok!

3. The point was obvious if you cared to read what i wrote. But whatever.

4. So you dont play pvp in gw2 and complain that pvp is in bad state atm? Ah, forgot that your judgement is based on p.1.

5. Yes it is. The difference between "OMG THIS CLASS BROKEN" and "solid class" is a few numbers. And usually its even less than 10%. There are always a lot of builds/specs that perform nicely, but struggle against "flavour of the month" meta classes. Doesnt mean they are unplayable. Ive personally played ele back when it was nerfed to the grounds, same for warrior, same for rev, and you know what? I ended up in plat/high gold. 

See here is the problem (highlighted). A thief (decap/+1) should never fight literary any sidenoder 1v1, any silver player knows that. Same for scourge since its a group fighter. Your lack of basic pvp knowledge actually explains ur attitude and false conclusions. 

 

Just now, Tnanever.3192 said:

We're saying we want decent balance where skill and strategy can usually be expected determine the outcome amongst roughly equal level players - and not, "I picked this class so i win" garbage.

Picking a class (aka team comp) is 50% of the win in gw2 in any meta. Try winning a game against a team with a thief (and you have none) on something like capricorn. 

 

Btw, attacking people during a conversation/debate is kinda considered a sign of weak arguments and bad manners. Im gonna say it again - chill man, its only a game. 

Btw (2), ive made my point in my first post, you kinda seem to ignore the simple fact that 1) they will not gonna fix anything before next patch, 2) i never did say cata is in a good spot atm, 3) pointless thread cause p.1.

[Tnanever.3192]

1 minute ago, soulknight.9620 said:

1. You do know what statistics mean? 

2. So a low tier (aka bad build) nets you with worse results than higher tiers? What a surprise! Competetive players adapt to meta shifts, looks like you are not one of them, and based on p.1 you make assumptions of "meta meme team winners". Ok!

...

(...ignoring the rest of your meandering drivel...)

1 - Yes, I do.  I can demand statistics as well - show me the statistics that reveal the classes are balanced.  Oh, you have none?  Thought so.
2 - Uh no - it's not a surprise - and that's literally the point of the complaints.  So you finally acknowledge class balance is broken.  Ok detective, let's put you on the next case.

 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

55 minutes ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

We're saying we want decent balance where skill and strategy can usually be expected determine the outcome

You are playing the wrong game then, anet is never going to put any resources into pvp

[Tnanever.3192]

3 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

You are playing the wrong game then, anet is never going to put any resources into pvp

Maybe, but you don't decide that for them.  It's simple - they invested in a feature for players, but the feature is broken.  If they want more money by keeping those players happy, they can fix it.

[voltaicbore.8012]

3 hours ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

If they want more money by keeping those players happy, they can fix it.

I have no statistics to back it up, but I'd bet a lot of real money that any revenue unique to sPvP is quite small (probably negligible in the grand scheme of things). I think they can easily get away with losing what remains of the small sPvP playerbase who actually cares about balance.

But not only do I doubt they want to fix it, I also doubt they can at this point. I've only played for 6 years, but I've never once recalled a really solid, this-feels-good era of balance. I started right around the era of the HoT bunker meta, and I must confess I was part of the problem (I ran sidenode druid in its heyday, it was a free win at anything below plat unless the other side had an equally good troll druid). There's been the rise and (way too slow) fall of many flavor of the month dominant specs pretty much constantly since then.

Of course, things can always change. I'm just not counting on it.

[soulknight.9620]

12 hours ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

1 - Yes, I do.  I can demand statistics as well - show me the statistics that reveal the classes are balanced.  Oh, you have none?  Thought so.

1. No, you cannot. Im not the one making a statement that:

16 hours ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

If at the top end, the game was balanced enough to where the the lowest performing classes lost only ~10% more to the very highest performing classes, that would be great. We don't have anything like that whatsoever right now, genius.

So its ur job to provide proof of your statement. Thats how common sense works, whoever makes a statement has to provide some arguments and proof. 

 

12 hours ago, Tnanever.3192 said:

2 - Uh no - it's not a surprise - and that's literally the point of the complaints.  So you finally acknowledge class balance is broken.  Ok detective, let's put you on the next case.

2. The point that weakest builds cant compete with strongest doesnt proof anything. U can simply put up a bad build that uses something like condi stats with pure power build and loose to anyone. Gw2 has loads of ways to create unique builds (both good and bad) and you are delusional if you think any build should be powerfull enough to take on mastercrafted builds. It has nothing to do with balance. Your logic is messed up man. 

As for the second part(highlighted): Did you read any of the messages i posted? Like literary any single one of them? I specifically said multiple times that: 

12 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Btw (2), ive made my point in my first post, you kinda seem to ignore the simple fact that 1) they will not gonna fix anything before next patch, 2) i never did say cata is in a good spot atm, 3) pointless thread cause p.1.

14 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Dont actually know where did you get an idea that i defend anet. My point in initial post was literary: theres always OP things in every meta, we have seen many of these, there will be a patch in few weeks, so this thread is pointless by default. 

 

So instead of going full rage agro mode, try to chill a bit and read what other people are saying.

 

[Tnanever.3192]

8 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

1. No, you cannot. Im not the one making a statement that:

So its ur job to provide proof of your statement. Thats how common sense works, whoever makes a statement has to provide some arguments and proof. 

 

2. The point that weakest builds cant compete with strongest doesnt proof anything. U can simply put up a bad build that uses something like condi stats with pure power build and loose to anyone. Gw2 has loads of ways to create unique builds (both good and bad) and you are delusional if you think any build should be powerfull enough to take on mastercrafted builds. It has nothing to do with balance. Your logic is messed up man. 

As for the second part(highlighted): Did you read any of the messages i posted? Like literary any single one of them? I specifically said multiple times that: 

 

So instead of going full rage agro mode, try to chill a bit and read what other people are saying.

 

 

-I provided hypothetical examples of what bad balance looks like.  Tell me where to get the "stats" for that?

-You admit that classes are not balanced - so tell me, what are you even posting for?  What is your argument?