Harbinger needs updates for May 2nd Balance update

[Uete.3805]

I know we just had a Balance patch last week, but Harbinger hasn't had any proper significant updates since... well... since EoD launch?? I really love Harbinger, but I think there are some design issues haunting its performance and play-style. Here's a list of issues, some of which hopefully get addressed with May 2nd's balance patch:

• Risk-reward balance: Current Blight implementation and Shroud skills functionality work against Blight being a real risk-reward mechanic. While I'm ok with how elixirs increase or remove blight stacks, I think Shroud 3 & 4 shouldn't remove blight at all. Essentially if you go into Harbinger shroud you shouldn't be able to shed any blight stacks on purpose, only increase them the longer you stay in shroud. There's no point in consuming the blight given how integral to damage (reward), sustain (reward) and health (risk) blight is to harbinger. The whole idea of harbinger and some of its traits revolves around the blight mechanic, but everything new in its kit (elixirs and harbi shroud) work towards removing it rather than hoard it for a more powerful effect. This of course has strong implications for Harbinger dps and survival, so I understand it might not be as easy to assess as I'm making it up to be. I just feel the one Necro spec that was designed as a glass-cannon (with some much needed sustain, mind you) isn't either glass, nor cannon due to too much blight removal while in shroud.

• Empowered Shroud skills: Shroud skills 3 & 4 could still be empowered by blight threshold. Essentially if you are at or above 15 blight, Devouring cut gets the improved version. If you get to 25 stacks then Voracious arc gets improved for as long as you keep those stacks. The cherry on top would be if the skill icon for those skills changed when you reached each threshold.

• Blight stacks visibility: The current system doesn't allow us to properly and quickly see the amount of blight accumulated. Having a visible bar that indicates the amount of blight on you would be great. I think the UI for Druid's astral force could be repurposed to show how much blight we have and the different thresholds it goes through.

• Blight damage increase: Wicked Corruption and Septic Corruption are very cool and thematic traits to pick if you want to do more strike or condi damage. With shroud skills no longer removing blight stacks this means those traits would function more reliably, but even then they only provide +12,5% extra damage at max blight stacks. Making max stacks more reachable would improve the overall dps performance of both power and condi harbinger, but a mere +12,5% seems pretty low (specially with how badly power harbinger performs). I think those numbers need to be reviewed, specially for the power side of harbinger:
  • Wicked Corruption: Increase strike damage by 1% per blight stack (+25% damage at max stacks). If that's too OP, then increase strike damage by 0.75% per blight stack (+18.5% damage at max stacks).
  • Septic Corruption: Increase condi damage by 0.75% per blight stack (+18.5% damage at max stacks). If it's deemed too OP, it could also stay the way it is right now.

• Harbinger shroud strike power: There was a thread not too long ago reminding everyone that your base weapon damage affects strike damage within shroud. I don't think this is a transparent mechanic and it should be fixed somehow to have a more coherent experience with power harbinger.

• Improve elixir group utility: This one is aimed at improving the more utility-focused elixirs:
  • Elixir of Bliss: It should remove more boons when used against a single foe. Also it should remove some condis from your teammates when traited with Twisted Medicine.
  • Elixir of Ignorance: It should give stability or have its cooldown reduced to 25 in pve. Also it should break stun for your teammates when traited with Twisted Medicine.

• New GM traits: Everyone agrees that the current implementation of GM traits (except Deathly Haste, which everyone takes) is neither flavorful, nor original in their design. All 3 provide an aura that does either damage&cripple, quickness or torment&weakness, but feel very copy-paste overall. I do like that each one affects your Shroud, so I'd propose to keep them shroud-focused, while trying to make them more theme-defining and creative in their design:
  • Cascading Corruption becomes Failed Experiment: Vital Draw summons 3 Failed experiment minions for 10 seconds when its animation finishes (the 3 suspended bodies get revived). Vital Draw becomes End experiment (3-ammo skill) that allows you to manually detonate one of your minions for critical damage and daze (or blind in competitive modes). Your Failed experiments should hit like a truck and always crit, but wouldn't explode after the 10 seconds, only if you chose to.
  • Doom approaches becomes Meltdown Aura: Your body becomes a melting down reactor based on accumulated blight. Increase the size and number of damaging condition applying auras with each blight threshold. Those auras could be triggered 1 second appart of each other every 3 seconds and use different color hues for each of them:
    • 0-9 blight: 180 aura of torment (green)
    • 10-19 blight: 180 aura of confusion (purple) + 240 aura of torment (green)
    • 20-25 blight: 180 aura of burning (red) + 240 aura of confusion (purple) + 300 aura of torment (green)

• Please fix underwater harbinger shroud: Underwater Shroud skill 3 barely moves your character and skill 4 is a broken joke (it only weakens you and pulls condis of allies to you... which you can't remove while staying on shroud xD)

So, fellow harbinger enjoyers, do you think this summarises all harbi problems? Did I forget any other issue? Or is harginger all good in its current implementation? Let me know! ^^

Edited February 20, 2023 by Uete.3805
Minor formatting issues

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

they still need to fine-tune Reaper. While we are on a comfy position right now, we still lack the damage to justify such low sustain and vice versa.
not to mention Reaper isn't meta anywhere in the game and isn't needed in any party...

after that, maybe they'll move to Scourge.

[Yasai.3549]

I'd say the only thing Harb needs is polish on how Blight is shown on the player and in the UI. 

 

The spec that really needs a revamp or serious help is Reaper. 

[Asum.4960]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:15 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

I'd say the only thing Harb needs is polish on how Blight is shown on the player and in the UI. 

 

The spec that really needs a revamp or serious help is Reaper. 

I'm on the reverse. I think fixing up Reaper at this point is almost frustrating in how many incredibly easy (spaghetti code not withstanding) ways there are to go about it. The problem isn't how to fix it, but which of the plentyfull no-brainer options to pick.

I don't think Reaper is fundamentally flawed on a design level (beyond Shroud just having been a bad idea to design a profession around in general, but that ship sailed in 2012). It just needs more options and efficacy, and a few Trait changes (and core weapon buffs) would fairly easily take care of that.

 

Harbinger on the other hand I believe to be fundamentally flawed in design - beyond the Shroud and Pistol skill kits providing a solid design core in theory, the spec is stacked with convoluted and within even itself contradictory mechanics, much of it requiring a fairly substantial rework. 

 

OP touches on a lot of those issues, but I still think Elixir's and Blight especially need a complete reevaluation (as much as I doubt that to ever happen). 

This whole thing of Elixir's just being Boon buttons (or rather, just being taken to generate Blight), but not providing the necessary Boons to even remotely compete as Boon Support spec - let alone any other forms of Utility. Them being able to be thrown at allies and enemies, but generally having to be thrown at your own feet for Blight, in addition to being too small in radius to be effectively used (especially to awkwardly target both yourself, all your allies, as well as enemies within the 240 to benefit from all of the stacked pitiful effects). 

Them granting Blight and removing Blight at the same time. Likewise Shroud being both used to accumulate Blight and remove Blight. Blight being an inherent negative through max health reduction via Dark Disciple, while also being an inherent positive through healing per second through Alchemic Vigor, while also being an optional benefit through Wicked/Septic Corruption as a damage increase to build up - which then all directly competes with Shroud 3&4 as damage increase to spent Blight on instead. Which then leaves you unable to use your mobility skills for mobility purposes without nuking your damage as well as sustain - so most of it's kit screams mobile spec with ranged DPS that kites and sustains, but then it's design demands jumping into melee as bruiser, but without good cleave and still no proper active defenses, despite giving up Shroud (while also being essentially entirely shut down by any form of projectile negation).

 

I feel like most of this spec has absolutely no idea what it wants to be, and the purity of purpose on almost every aspect of it is absolutely horrendous. 

 

I mean just looking at a single skill in Voracious Arc to exemplify this:

1. It's a mobility skill, which at 600 range over 0.75s (and somehow not even being a Leap Finisher) isn't too great.

2. It's a CC skill, which at 0.5 second Daze isn't too great.

3. It's a defensive skill, which at 0.5 evade, not even covering it own 0.75 cast time/animation, isn't too great.

4. It's a damaging skill, which since it needs you to build up and then consume 10 Blight to function, forcing the use of Elixir's as Utilities just for this Blight generation purpose, isn't too great. 

5. Wanting to Utilize any or all of these functions deletes your extra Damage from Septic/Wicked Corruption and vital Sustain from Alchemic Vigor - whether you want to/can utilize function 4 of the skill for the extra Damage or not. 

 

There is just so much individual and conflicting in purpose crap layered on top of each other that it genuinely boggles my mind to have made it past the concepting stage. 

Nothing on this spec seems to do any one thing right and well, it's just so much poor design bloated onto everything that it kind of sort of works, but not in a satisfying and clear way.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Asum.4960

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Leave the gm traits alone. Only problem I have with harbringer is the removal of blight on using shroud skills. The only reason pharb is not a thing is because anet has screwed up all core necros power weapons.

One of the main problems with necro is everything lacks a purity of purpose, that why reaper has 5/9 traits are meme choices, and 7/9 scourge are meme choices.

[Dr Meta.3158]

I think harb is just done for. It needs a complete redesign including its theme, weapon, and all. Its essentially a reaper that traded life force sustain and damage reduction for health sustain and range. It can't handle burst, it gets completely shutdown by elementalist aura sharing, and its only niche use is as a poor quickness share in which there are a lot of better options for. Hell, Reaper could have been that and that would at least justified its boon share levels of dps.

 

I don't think they'd ever put in the work required for any elite spec that Harbinger, and scourge too while we are at it, needs to function in its own identity.

[felincyriac.5981]

I thought by now they would have completed harb after giving us a half-finished spec.

 

But we are still just buffing reaper's dps by 0.22% every 3 months...

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

8 hours ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

I thought by now they would have completed harb after giving us a half-finished spec.

 

But we are still just buffing reaper's dps by 0.22% every 3 months...

Weekly reminder that it's now almost 1.5 years since Anet was made aware of the fact that Harbinger has no Shroud Skill #4 when underwater, despite the skill obviously existing, at least conceptually. It appears in tool tip when you hover over it with mouse when you are not in combat. Once you use it or enter combat, you will only see Core Necro Shroud skill #4 (underwater version).

Again, this is known for over a year now and I would be highly surprised to hear that somebody at Anetat least put it on a to-do list by now.

What else? No unique player-chatter for any of the Harbinger skills/utilities, the whole spec is basically just playable in one way and one way only and alot more stuff I'm too tired to list right now

Edited February 21, 2023 by Seuchenherbst.2746
spelling

[sdaugherty.1984]

How many of you out there actually enjoy playing Harbinger?

I love the Necro class and tried Harbinger for a while and was disappointed with the overall feel and mechanics. Don't know if it was me or not but I found it hard to wrap my brain around the mechanics and was sometimes confused as I tried to maximize efficiency. I found it annoying to play and it left me with a feeling of disappointment.   

[sdaugherty.1984]

As I stated above the Harb did not work for me and I am now wondering.... I am sure Anet has specs with numbers on what classes are played and popular in each realm of play (pvp, pve wvw). Anyone have info on this?

[Zex Anthon.8673]

43 minutes ago, sdaugherty.1984 said:

How many of you out there actually enjoy playing Harbinger?

I love the Necro class and tried Harbinger for a while and was disappointed with the overall feel and mechanics. Don't know if it was me or not but I found it hard to wrap my brain around the mechanics and was sometimes confused as I tried to maximize efficiency. I found it annoying to play and it left me with a feeling of disappointment.   

I play it in PvP because it has decent mobility, team support, and  sustain. Unfortunately, you sacrifice all your defense to achieve this. So, if you get focused by 2 or more good players... you're dead. But thats on par for any necro spec.

The build feels very restrictive. You are essentially forced to take the middle line of traits because your only role is team fighter and the other traits are just bad.  Your utility slots are locked into wurm and spectral walk. With no defenses, you need one or both of blood magic and death magic to survive.

A lot of these issues are not specific to harbinger and stem primarily from core necro's weaknesses: low sustain, low mobility, poor defense, zero stability. However, harbinger feels particularly bad since Anet shipped us an unfinished product. Its mechanics (blight, elixirs, and shroud) feel disconnected. A lot of the interaction is forced. And, the traits are immensely lackluster.

[Brujeria.7536]

I enjoy the playstyle a lot because the shroud skills are very cool in concept and shroud AA with quickness is the most satisfying thing to watch in the entire game.

 

As for updates: Blight needs a better implementation. Its the main thing about the spec and just feels glued on last second on the elixirs. Blight needs a bigger impact. At the very least natural % damage increases if they want to keep it that way. Optimal would be if existing weapon skills would work with it, like some skills using blight, some skills generate it and have stronger effects. Also some traits could be affected by a high blight level.

 

Traits: Are sadly very bad because they are passive effects for the most part. You first decide if your class mechanic should have an identity or not, some cooldown reduction, invisible stat buffs, more invisible stat buffs. Most of the traits try to deal with the terrible damage buffs baseline necro traitlines have. The GM traits and the pulsing effects (besides quickness) dont make much sense either, they focus around being near your target for a prolonged time and that goes against the design of the class - you are supposed to be fragile and you dont want to camp close range.

 

Most problems necromancer as a whole still has are the poor baseline weapons and gimicky traits

 

[Asum.4960]

I did some short thinking as additions or alternatives to OP in what is probably my 3rd re-envisioning of Harbinger by now.

 

Some keypoints before:

This doesn't address Power Harbinger. I still think first and foremost for any Power Necro Build, Death's Embrace and Siphoned Power in Spite require reworks into modern, actually useful, Traits (e.g. Devastation Minors). 

Additionally, Core, especially Power, Weapons just need revamps and or major buffs. No need to beat a dead horse here.

 

It also doesn't fix Harbinger's passive Trait set - nor makes Blight a central, fun and transformative mechanic of the Spec, but these are things essentially requiring a complete rework of the Spec - but at least they all fall into theme/concept with this which I kind of like (far second to a full rework with wholly unique and transformative options ofc). 

 

Lastly, suggested numbers are ballparked and from a PvE PoV.

 

Without further ado, some relatively feasible changes which imo would make Harbinger a lot more fun, useful and defined in it's skills and roles.

1. Remove Blight consumption for extra Damage and Torment from Shroud 3&4.
2. Move the Daze from Voracious Arc to Devouring Cut, add 2 Torment (3s) base and increase it's Power Coefficient (and/or extra fun and work: Devouring Cut now leaves behind a Torment pulsing gash in it's path and puddle at impact for 2-3 seconds), defining it as engage and DPS skill.
3. Return Voracious Arc to 900 range, reduce it's coefficient and increase it's Evade to minimum 0.75 seconds, at least covering it's own animation and defining it as defensive/mobility/disengage skill.
4. Buff Insidious Disruption in Curses from 1 Stack of Torment (5s) to minimum 2 Stacks of Torment (4s) in PvE at least.
This would facilitate extra value for Harbinger which especially can't realistically rely on the BiP + Plague Sending combo - making the retooled Devouring Cut and Vital Draw valuable Shroud skills to incorporate into a damage rotation (as well as synergising further with Vile Blast) - so Shroud isn't just 1+2 spam, without relying on the counterintuitive Blight consumption on Shroud 3&4 for extra Damage, which clashes with the Corruption Adept Traits and Alchemic Vigor Minor.
5. Replace Vile Vials as Adept:
Sanguine Corruption: Gain Increased Boon Duration for each stack of Blight you have (0.5%). Elixir's additionally grant Protection (3-5s) to you and nearby allies (5 targets, 360 radius).
6. Replace Twisted Medicine as Master: 
Twisted Medic: Granting Allies Boons now additionally heals them for a small amount, and Regeneration you apply heals for more. Gain Healing Power based on your Vitality (13%).

7. Elixirs:
Elixirs are no longer throwable. Instead they grant their effects to you and nearby allies (360 radius) baseline.
A new Elixir structure example as well as some ideas for revisions:
- [Heal] Elixir of Promise: Heal for an amount and inflict yourself with 10 Blight. Grant 10 seconds of Regeneration (+Vigor?) to allies around you and Poison nearby enemies. 360 Radius. 20s CD.
- [Utility] Elixir of Anguish: Inflict yourself with 10 Blight. Grant 5 seconds of Quickness and Fury, as well as 10 Stacks of Might for 15 seconds to allies around you. (0.5s Daze or some Vulnerability to nearby Enemies?) 20s CD.
- [Utility] Elixir of Speed: Break Stuns and inflict yourself with 10 Blight. Grant 15 seconds of Swiftness, 4 seconds of Superspeed and Resistance to allies around you. Inflict nearby enemies with Slow/Cripple. 30s CD.
- [Utility] Elixir of Coagulation: Block the next 3 attacks and inflict yourself with 10 Blight. Grant Aegis (3s) and 2 stacks of Stability (5s) to allies around you. (Inflict nearby allies with Blind/Weakness?) 30s CD. 

 

I'm not quite sure yet on the forth, likely condition management focused, Utility, as well as a revision for Ambition.

 

These are quite tough to put together without making them look ridiculous on paper, considering just how much Necromancer is lacking in it's core framework, from Weapons to Traits to Utilities otherwise, to become a viable and desired (especially Boon-) Support. I was more airing on the side of caution here, but these skills need to carry some weight to make up for the Shroud loss and lacking core boon support.

What is clear though is that the current iterations fall woefully short - I do think though that something along these lines will provide snappier gameplay (without the added throwable component) with less convoluted and description bloated effects. And with good Protection uptime from the revised Sanguine Corruption Adept (in trade for personal DPS from the other Corruption Adepts) as well as Aegis and Stability access from Elixir of Coagulation, coupled with better Might uptime from Anguish (with condensed offensive boon spread), Boon Harbinger should feel far less left behind other options such as qFB, Herald, Scrapper and co. 

Depending on the tuning of Twisted Medic, there might even be a potential for a playable Quickheal Blood Harbinger build in there with decent sustained healing and hallmark ress capabilities, but poor burst healing (although I'm not sure how bugged Transfusion still is with Harb).

Edited February 24, 2023 by Asum.4960

[misterman.1530]

All I want is Voracious Arc and Devouring Cut to have a greater range - say 1200 - and clear conditions. And one of them to have a stealth mechanic.

Anything to give Necros at least one stun break and proper stealth mechanic.

Of course, Anet devs have constantly said that they are satisfied with Necros as they are (which, also of course, means none of them actually play Necros).

[Greviathan.6107]

5 hours ago, misterman.1530 said:

All I want is Voracious Arc and Devouring Cut to have a greater range - say 1200 - and clear conditions. And one of them to have a stealth mechanic.

Giving harbinger 2 leaps of 1200 would be truly insane, especially with stealth. It's true that necros in general need better mobility (especially reaper due to its melee nature), but the harbinger is the only one who doesn't really need it.

 

5 hours ago, misterman.1530 said:

Of course, Anet devs have constantly said that they are satisfied with Necros as they are (which, also of course, means none of them actually play Necros).

I really refuse to believe they don't test their classes, so in my opinion they are just comparing classes via low skilled players.
In a fight, the less skilled the players are, the stronger the necro looks, I think this is what misleads the devs.

As for the harbinger itself, for me it should be completely reworked, from the weapon to the class mechanic (It doesn't look like a necro in any respect!), but I know that of course it will never happen.

[Rittsu.5698]

The condi trait should gave poison in all the skills not only one and the minion idea looks amazing if they just gave it to Harb the Death Magic trait would be a option. For the Power trait i think that they should empower the "ninja" fantasy doing shrould 3 and 4 having charges and dont consuming blight, maybe grant boons to the aura trait and changing the quickness trait to a fully suport trait giving alac and quick