Shatter skills in condi mirage rotation (PvE)

[Wandering Mist.2973]

So I've been looking at the new Condi Mirage PvE build, which essentially swaps out illusion traits for chaos and cuts out the pistol entirely. Because of this the rotation doesn't use any phantasms at all, so I'm wondering why any of the shatter skills aren't part of the rotation. The mirage build can produce clones very quickly so you shouldn't lose any uptime on them, plus your basic illusions don't add too much damage compared to phantasms. Has anyone tried putting shatter skills into the rotation?

This is the build I'm referring to:

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/mesmer/clone-mirage-build-guide/

On a side note I'm not too sure about some of the chosen traits. For example, taking "duellist's discipline" seems kinda silly when you don't even use a pistol, and taking "blinding dissipation" when there are no shatter skills in the rotation. Can anyone explain the logic in this?

[Zypp.7921]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:your basic illusions don't add too much damage compared to phantasms.

The build relies on the mirage trait that gives your clones mirage cloak when you gain it. This also makes your clones use the ambush skill! This is the main power of the build and the reason you should never spawn a phantasm or use a shatter (unless you really need to distort).

Of course you can experiment with shatters. You could throw in an f2 if you're confident you can make 3 clones again before your endurance is full and weapon swap comes off cooldown. If you can shatter and get back to 3 clones without 'wasting' endurance it might be a small dps increase. Endurance=dps for this build, keep that in mind.

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:On a side note I'm not too sure about some of the chosen traits. For example, taking "duellist's discipline" seems kinda silly when you don't even use a pistol, and taking >"blinding dissipation" when there are no shatter skills in the rotation. Can anyone explain the logic in this?

The build takes dueling because it gives you the highest dps output, but the first trait choice doesn't matter as none of those traits affect dps. Feel free to take either the stealth or the phantasm fury trait as they have some situational use, while the pistol trait is completely useless for the build.

[apharma.3741]

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:So I've been looking at the new Condi Mirage PvE build, which essentially swaps out illusion traits for chaos and cuts out the pistol entirely. Because of this the rotation doesn't use any phantasms at all, so I'm wondering why any of the shatter skills aren't part of the rotation. The mirage build can produce clones very quickly so you shouldn't lose any uptime on them, plus your basic illusions don't add too much damage compared to phantasms. Has anyone tried putting shatter skills into the rotation?

This is the build I'm referring to:

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/mesmer/clone-mirage-build-guide/

On a side note I'm not too sure about some of the chosen traits. For example, taking "duellist's discipline" seems kinda silly when you don't even use a pistol, and taking "blinding dissipation" when there are no shatter skills in the rotation. Can anyone explain the logic in this?

I’ll answer the part in bold. There’s no other trait to slot. Mirror on evade can cause all kinds of problems in raids so not picked, you don’t use a sword so that’s completely rubbish and blind on shatter I guess can at least be used on trash mobs. Likewise which trait is honestly worth using in the adept category? No phantasms so no need to give them fury, desperate decoy can and will interrupt actions when it procs so isn’t a good pick either, they’re all bad or useless. Likewise there’s traits in other lines which are picked only because they won’t interfere with the build as no other traits do anything for the build or could become a problem.

If it makes you feel better feel free to pick phantasmal fury but for the love of quaggans don’t pick evasive mirror unless you know what you’re doing.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Zypp.7921 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:your basic illusions don't add too much damage compared to phantasms.

The build relies on the mirage trait that gives your clones mirage cloak when you gain it. This also makes your clones use the ambush skill! This is the main power of the build and the reason you should never spawn a phantasm or use a shatter (unless you really need to distort).

Of course you can experiment with shatters. You could throw in an f2 if you're confident you can make 3 clones again before your endurance is full and weapon swap comes off cooldown. If you can shatter and get back to 3 clones without 'wasting' endurance it might be a small dps increase. Endurance=dps for this build, keep that in mind.

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:On a side note I'm not too sure about some of the chosen traits. For example, taking "duellist's discipline" seems kinda silly when you don't even use a pistol, and taking >"blinding dissipation" when there are no shatter skills in the rotation. Can anyone explain the logic in this?

The build takes dueling because it gives you the highest dps output, but the first trait choice doesn't matter as none of those traits affect dps. Feel free to take either the stealth or the phantasm fury trait as they have some situational use, while the pistol trait is completely useless for the build.

Ah, I didn't realise your clones did the ambush skills. That makes a lot more sense now thanks. With regards to the shatter skills, as long as you had Axe 2 and 2 stacks of jaunt up you could instantly replenish your clones after a shatter. Whether that will be worth it, I don't know.

[Levetty.1279]

Even if you take Illusions to load your shatters with condi and get your clones back up straight away its still lower dps then just letting your clones attack.

[bart.3687]

Funny how this mirage build became another meta that shits on the mesmer's class mechanic ie shatters. It was 3 Phants forever before, now it's 3 Axe clones. Wish they could make shatters a more viable dps option in PvE, especially power shatter.

[serialkicker.5274]

In short, there is no logic to it. Game tells you you want to shatter, but you also don't. That's Mirage for you.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@bart.3687 said:Funny how this mirage build became another meta that kitten on the mesmer's class mechanic ie shatters. It was 3 Phants forever before, now it's 3 Axe clones. Wish they could make shatters a more viable dps option in PvE, especially power shatter.

Yeah, it's sad that the shatter skills aren't more useful in PvE except to finish off low health trash mobs. Oh well.

[apharma.3741]

@bart.3687 said:Funny how this mirage build became another meta that kitten on the mesmer's class mechanic ie shatters. It was 3 Phants forever before, now it's 3 Axe clones. Wish they could make shatters a more viable dps option in PvE, especially power shatter.

If mesmer damage came more from weapon skills and some had the byproduct of summoning a clone which literally did no damage but still applied conditions (at 0 condition damage) then mesmers could shatter in PvE. In fact it would be part of the rotation to summon 2 clones most likely and to shatter.

Ofc you’d have to get rid of phantasms and rebalance a significant number of traits and skills but I feel it’s time to make the change for core then if people miss phantasms you can bring them back as an optional elite spec.

[Hevoskuuri.3891]

I'm not a big fan of the Pistol on mesmer, so I always shatter in my open-world rotation using staff & axe/focus.

1. Staff 5, 4 and generate iWarlock and a clone with 3 and 2
2. Shatter for a quick condi burst
3. Swap to axe, quickly produce 2 clones and keep them up while spamming ambush attack
4. When weapon swap is off cooldown, shatter those clones as well
5. Swap back to staff, generate clones and spam ambush skills until weapon swap is off cooldown again
6. Repeat

So I basically shatter always when weapon swap is available, so I can get new clones up and use autoattack/ambush attacks to keep up the condi spam. Might not be the optimal rotation for a condi mirage, but produces tons of damage anyway, and with Inspiration traited the shattering removes your conditions and heals you a bit.

[FaboBabo.3581]

We got to accept what shatters are ; Burst + Sustain in the cost of sustained Damage. There aren't a lot classes which can deal 40k damage with one skill.

Why do i Say 40k? I got hit by a F1 from a Power Mesmer in WvW for 5600 per Illusion. Meaning roughly 22k total. If we assume he had 25 stacks might + scholar rune + sigil of force(5%damage), there is still some room for increased damage over Buffs, vulnerability etc bla.

[apharma.3741]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:We got to accept what shatters are ; Burst + Sustain in the cost of sustained Damage. There aren't a lot classes which can deal 40k damage with one skill.

Why do i Say 40k? I got hit by a F1 from a Power Mesmer in WvW for 5600 per Illusion. Meaning roughly 22k total. If we assume he had 25 stacks might + scholar rune + sigil of force(5%damage), there is still some room for increased damage over Buffs, vulnerability etc bla.

You do realise the damage per illusion decreases depending on the number of illusions shattered? With force, scholar and all that 20k for 3 clone might be the closer number but again we are talking all the buffs. You could quite easily test it on a golem though.

[Levetty.1279]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:We got to accept what shatters are ; Burst + Sustain in the cost of sustained Damage. There aren't a lot classes which can deal 40k damage with one skill.

Why do i Say 40k? I got hit by a F1 from a Power Mesmer in WvW for 5600 per Illusion. Meaning roughly 22k total. If we assume he had 25 stacks might + scholar rune + sigil of force(5%damage), there is still some room for increased damage over Buffs, vulnerability etc bla.

Why do I say 40k? Because I claim to be hit by a lot lower number so I'm just going to presume its possible to double that damage for no reason.

[OriOri.8724]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:We got to accept what shatters are ; Burst + Sustain in the cost of sustained Damage. There aren't a lot classes which can deal 40k damage with one skill.

Why do i Say 40k? I got hit by a F1 from a Power Mesmer in WvW for 5600 per Illusion. Meaning roughly 22k total. If we assume he had 25 stacks might + scholar rune + sigil of force(5%damage), there is still some room for increased damage over Buffs, vulnerability etc bla.

You took a 22k MW and somehow extrapolated that the skill can deal 40k+ damage?

[AliamRationem.5172]

I don't know what the answer is, but I do wish there were better synergy between shatter skills and the rest of what mesmer does.

[FaboBabo.3581]

K after i actually did some maths I'm gonna take a step back from what I've said.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhQQNAncRnELDFMjFpBmpBMMjlTDzvBWBzgljgVQCgMAsBWOA-jlRBABUq+jZKBxTfwV7PK/A4IAswhAIAwBQY+5BO/8zP/8zr5nf+5nf+5nf+5lCIitWA-w (max power+Ferocity Build?)

1100(Mid Point weapon Strenght) x 4126(Power with 25 Might, stacked Sigil, Banner + Empower) x 3,22(3 Illusion F1 Coefficient) x 2,29(Crit Damage Coefficient) x 1,15(Superiority Complex) x 1,10(Scholar Rune) x 1,05(Force Sigil) x 1,125(Fragility)/2000(Light Armor) x 1,25(25 Stacks Vulnerability) = 31255,44k Damage

Assuming a perfect scenario on light Armor Classes without Toughness

1100(Mid Point weapon Strenght) x 4126(Power with 25 Might, stacked Sigil, Banner + Empower) x 3,22(3 Illusion F1 Coefficient) x 2,29(Crit Damage Coefficient) x 1,15(Superiority Complex) x 1,10(Scholar Rune) x 1,05(Force Sigil) x 1,125(Fragility)/2600(Heavy Armor) x 1,25(25 Stacks Vulnerability) = 24042,65k Damage

Assuming a perfect scenario on heavy Armor Classes without Toughness.

Somehow i thaught we had more dmg multiplicator Buffs which would kick harder. My bad here. Correct me if I'm wrong at any term. Wanna go sure i understand Damage maths.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:K after i actually did some maths I'm gonna take a step back from what I've said.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhQQNAncRnELDFMjFpBmpBMMjlTDzvBWBzgljgVQCgMAsBWOA-jlRBABUq+jZKBxTfwV7PK/A4IAswhAIAwBQY+5BO/8zP/8zr5nf+5nf+5nf+5lCIitWA-w (max power+Ferocity Build?)

1100(Mid Point weapon Strenght) x 4126(Power with 25 Might, stacked Sigil, Banner + Empower) x 3,22(3 Illusion F1 Coefficient) x 2,29(Crit Damage Coefficient) x 1,15(Superiority Complex) x 1,10(Scholar Rune) x 1,05(Force Sigil) x 1,125(Fragility)/2000(Light Armor) x 1,25(25 Stacks Vulnerability) = 31255,44k Damage

Assuming a perfect scenario on light Armor Classes without Toughness

1100(Mid Point weapon Strenght) x 4126(Power with 25 Might, stacked Sigil, Banner + Empower) x 3,22(3 Illusion F1 Coefficient) x 2,29(Crit Damage Coefficient) x 1,15(Superiority Complex) x 1,10(Scholar Rune) x 1,05(Force Sigil) x 1,125(Fragility)/2600(Heavy Armor) x 1,25(25 Stacks Vulnerability) = 24042,65k Damage

Assuming a perfect scenario on heavy Armor Classes without Toughness.

Somehow i thaught we had more dmg multiplicator Buffs which would kick harder. My bad here. Correct me if I'm wrong at any term. Wanna go sure i understand Damage maths.

Are we assuming in this that the target is not activating any skills when you use the shatter?

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:K after i actually did some maths I'm gonna take a step back from what I've said.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhQQNAncRnELDFMjFpBmpBMMjlTDzvBWBzgljgVQCgMAsBWOA-jlRBABUq+jZKBxTfwV7PK/A4IAswhAIAwBQY+5BO/8zP/8zr5nf+5nf+5nf+5lCIitWA-w

(max power+Ferocity Build?)

1100(Mid Point weapon Strenght) x 4126(Power with 25 Might, stacked Sigil, Banner + Empower) x 3,22(3 Illusion F1 Coefficient) x 2,29(Crit Damage Coefficient) x 1,15(Superiority Complex) x 1,10(Scholar Rune) x 1,05(Force Sigil) x 1,125(Fragility)/2000(Light Armor) x 1,25(25 Stacks Vulnerability) = 31255,44k Damage

Assuming a perfect scenario on light Armor Classes without Toughness

1100(Mid Point weapon Strenght) x 4126(Power with 25 Might, stacked Sigil, Banner + Empower) x 3,22(3 Illusion F1 Coefficient) x 2,29(Crit Damage Coefficient) x 1,15(Superiority Complex) x 1,10(Scholar Rune) x 1,05(Force Sigil) x 1,125(Fragility)/2600(Heavy Armor) x 1,25(25 Stacks Vulnerability) = 24042,65k Damage

Assuming a perfect scenario on heavy Armor Classes without Toughness.

Somehow i thaught we had more dmg multiplicator Buffs which would kick harder. My bad here. Correct me if I'm wrong at any term. Wanna go sure i understand Damage maths.

Are we assuming in this that the target is not activating any skills when you use the shatter?

This is what a Perfect scenario means. This is just a theoretical term to value the Full Potential of mind Wrack.

[OriOri.8724]

If you're going for max possible power damage on a shatter, you would drop mirage for illusions due to compounding power and MoF (for more crit chance). Compounding power would be another 9% damage modifier due to having 3 illusions out

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@OriOri.8724 said:If you're going for max possible power damage on a shatter, you would drop mirage for illusions due to compounding power and MoF (for more crit chance). Compounding power would be another 9% damage modifier due to having 3 illusions out

Yeah, but then again who in their right minds would take illusions over mirage in PvP?

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:If you're going for max possible power damage on a shatter, you would drop mirage for illusions due to compounding power and MoF (for more crit chance). Compounding power would be another 9% damage modifier due to having 3 illusions out

Yeah, but then again who in their right minds would take illusions over mirage in PvP?

we aren't in PvP anymore. We're at theoretical highest F1 Damage, just for the lulz. I brought it up to PROOF MYSELF WRONG in the statement of beeing able to 40k damage with F1.

[OriOri.8724]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:If you're going for max possible power damage on a shatter, you would drop mirage for illusions due to compounding power and MoF (for more crit chance). Compounding power would be another 9% damage modifier due to having 3 illusions out

Yeah, but then again who in their right minds would take illusions over mirage in PvP?

I mean in the context of that comment, FaboBabo was trying to obtain the highest damage MW that he could. Taking Mirage over Illusions makes you better in a duel, but lowers your potential damage from MW, so is a net negative in this scenario.