Hero Points are outdated

[Gravitron.7982]

Just now, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Imagine having to spend a couple of hours to unlock an entirely new way to play your character.   

Still a grind. It's still an activity you have to actively do in order to unlock the rest of your class.

[Randulf.7614]

2 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

You don't have to kill NPC's that spawn?

I feel like you are trying hard to pull a gotcha here, but there isn't one to be had. You made a few good points amongst earlier, but now you are trying to prove grind based on a misunderstanding on what the definition of grind is.

I can't say any more on the subject. There is no grind in hero points. None. We can can go rouind in circles, but until you correctly understand what grind is, we are in a circular discussion. A fun one, but with no ending.

You can dislike the system.-you are free to do so. You can even redfine grind if you wish, but it wont change two things;

- There is no grind in hero points

- The system is not going to be changed to just give everyone the elite spec without playing the game in a system that so far works and is implemented in a healthy way for the game itself 

[Gravitron.7982]

1 minute ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I feel like you are trying hard to pull a gotcha here, but there isn't one to be had. You made a few good points amongst earlier, but now you are trying to prove grind based on a misunderstanding on what the definition of grind is.

I can't say any more on the subject. There is no grind in hero points. None. We can can go rouind in circles, but until you correctly understand what grind is, we are in a circular discussion. A fun one, but with no ending.

You can dislike the system.-you are free to do so. You can even redfine grind if you wish, but it wont change two things;

- There is no grind in hero points

- The system is not going to be changed to just give everyone the elite spec without playing the game in a system that so far works and is implemented in a healthy way for the game itself 

Sorry but I disagree, it's a grind. You have to grind for Hero points. Quests that say "collect XYZ" are still a grind. Anything you have to actively do to advance, you have to grind for it.

[Gibson.4036]

Just now, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

Sorry but I disagree, it's a grind. You have to grind for Hero points. Quests that say "collect XYZ" are still a grind. Anything you have to actively do to advance, you have to grind for it.

It sounds like you don't like RPGs, then.

[Cyninja.2954]

5 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

Still a grind. It's still an activity you have to actively do in order to unlock the rest of your class.

 

It's not. It's barely even a speedbump, in a game which has had notoriously had a problem with retaining players due to its not as strict and strait forward nature.

 

Hero points, when not skipped via say WvW, are a very strait forward and easy to understand activity which causes player engegemant, even if only for a few hours (because that's the nost it takes to unlock all 3 elites specializations, basically an evenings worth of game play).

 

Having them implemented this way means it takes a few hours longer before players come to the forums and complain about not knowing what do to and who knows, maybe some of those players will have found something to do for after acquiring the hero points.

 

Other games make players actually grind for days/weeks/months on gear and related things, GW2 has you flesh out your character in a few hours. In some cases even creating social gatherings between players: aka hero point trains.

[AliamRationem.5172]

16 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

Still a grind. It's still an activity you have to actively do in order to unlock the rest of your class.

I like having things to work toward besides grinding gold.  But you do you.

[Randulf.7614]

13 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

Sorry but I disagree, it's a grind. You have to grind for Hero points. Quests that say "collect XYZ" are still a grind. Anything you have to actively do to advance, you have to grind for it.

That's fine. You are welcome to disagree. It doesn't change it not being a grind. You are just misunderstanding the term to encompass doing one activity one time a grind. That's your right I guess. It doesn't change the fact that hero points are not a grind.

Anyway, I'll leave it there. I'm sure others will explain it better 🙂

[Gravitron.7982]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

It's not. It's barely even a speedbump, in a game which has had notoriously had a problem with retaining players due to its not as strict and strait forward nature.

 

Hero points, when not skipped via say WvW, are a very strait forward and easy to understand activity which causes player engegemant, even if only for a few hours (because that's the nost it takes to unlock all 3 elites specializations, basically an evenings worth of game play).

 

Having them implemented this way means it takes a few hours longer before players come to the forums and complain about not knowing what do to and who knows, maybe some of those players will have found something to do for after acquiring the hero points.

 

Other games make players actually grind for days/weeks/months on gear and related things, GW2 has you flesh out your character in a few hours. In some cases even creating social gatherings between players: aka hero point trains.

So your argument is that if something only takes a few hours, then it's not a grind. But if it takes a few days or more then it's a grind, and that is the line between what a grind is and isn't? Come on let's just be honest about it here. Maybe the word "grind" is too offensive for you guys here?

Ok how about "actively perform a singular activity in sequence in order to unlock a feature".

[AliamRationem.5172]

18 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

So your argument is that if something only takes a few hours, then it's not a grind. But if it takes a few days or more then it's a grind, and that is the line between what a grind is and isn't? Come on let's just be honest about it here. Maybe the word "grind" is too offensive for you guys here?

Ok how about "actively perform a singular activity in sequence in order to unlock a feature".

Honest question.  What activity do you find acceptable or "not grind"? 

[Gravitron.7982]

Just now, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Honest question.  What activity do you find acceptable or "not grind"? 

I'm not trying to debate on what is or isn't "acceptable", I am just pointing out that most things in MMORPG's are a grind of some kind. If I have to do a quest to get a weapon, that's a grind. If I have to get X amount of XP to level up, that's a grind. If I am trying to unlock achievements, and have to explore the maps to do it, it's still a grind.

Some grinds are larger than others, some are smaller than others, but anything you actively have to do to unlock something, is a grind. Maybe it's a 10 minute grind, or 10 hour grind, or 10 week grind, but if it's not opened up to you automatically, and you have to actively perform a task in the game before the game gives you said item, then it 100% is a grind.

Whether it's good or bad is really up to the person playing to decide for themselves. My entire point, was that most other theme park style MMORPG's like GW2, have the act of unlocking your class, part of the leveling process. In GW2, elite specs are functionally a "class", as they can completely change how you play. So, essentially GW2 has the "class leveling" portion of the game split into two sections: Getting to level 80, then getting at least 1 elite spec unlocked.

Getting to 80 requires you to grind either the theme park stories, or killing mobs. The elite spec unlock requires you to farm enough hero points to unlock at least one elite spec, which has varies ways to grind that out (wvw, solo map exploration, HP train, etc). Either way, you have to grind for both parts before you have the whole piece: a level 80 with an elite spec fully unlocked. Only then are you done grinding your character's base power level, and now it becomes about grinding the things that augment your characters base power level: gear.

The OP was saying the HP system is outdated at this point in the game, and I agree. Even SWTOR (who had a similar, but less grindy, version of this) eliminated the need to grind to unlock your :advance class". Now, you just pick which advanced class you want to play right off the bat, and worry only about getting that character to max level. In GW2, you can grind to level 80, then decide you don't want to grind hero points, which is fine. The problem is that elite specs are fundamentally so much more powerful than their base class, that it's not a "horizontal" choice anymore like it might have been back in 2014 or 2015. It is now a choice of  "I don't want to put in the time to grind the other half of my class, so I am going to just settle for lower performance..." which I think is a bad design.

I do believe that players should have ways to increase their power level over time, that's not what I think is bad design. EQ2 has an Alternate Advancement system, ESO has champion points, WoW has legendaries, Star Trek Online has Starship traits, Age of Conan also had their version of an Alternate Advancement system, etc. I have no issues with that at all, I just think the bad design is where they chose to split the class into two sections, and used that as their form of alternate advancement system. Putting that on the class itself I think is bad design, instead of putting it elsewhere.

To be fair, I don't think Anet thought that far ahead when they first introduced Especs. I think it was originally intended to be a side grade in a sense, that simply offered a different playstyle for each class.....but as of now, I think each class as 3 elite specs, and will probably continue adding more, so there won't be anymore new "classes" only new "especs", which means Anet sees Especs as the replacement for classes when it comes to how GW2 plays today.

TLDR:

This means that the systems they had in place that made sense when each class only had one elite spec, now no longer make sense since the rules of the game and how it operates kind of changed right? So to circle back, I agree with OP that the current iteration of Hero Points is an outdated system and should be re-worked.

 

[Randulf.7614]

OK, so you have as I suspected got the incorrect definition of grind, one that has no bearing or relationship to what grind actually is. That's fine, I think we had all worked that out, but now we have full confirmation. You can continue to refer to it as grind if you wish, but just keep in mind it is incorrect and not one almost anyone else who has plays mmos uses. So you will get objections to referring to it incorrectly. 

Putting that now to bed, you are right in your analysis that especs were intended to be side grades. Somewhere that has got lost. Now we have power creep as one issue - one that is being compounded and not fixed as we can see from the upcoming patch, but also some are just being added for the sake of it without fulfilling any sort of reason to exist. I think that is because they don't really have the ideas in place and the experience to balance them and with constantly changing profession teams, things have got muddled.

Especs were always meant to be replacements for classes though. That was outrightly stated many years ago. This isn't a new realisation. 

As for re-working hero points, that is a hard no (it's also not going to happen anyway thnakfully). The system is strong, the system works, the system is fair and uncomplicated and rewards playing the game naturally. That is the sign of excellent design and I commend the team for making that side of things spot on, even if the e-specs themselves have become a bit over powered.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

So your argument is that if something only takes a few hours, then it's not a grind. But if it takes a few days or more then it's a grind, and that is the line between what a grind is and isn't? Come on let's just be honest about it here. Maybe the word "grind" is too offensive for you guys here?

My argument is that you are using different metrics to define grind based around your personal preference and that is not necessarily a strong argument.

1 hour ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

Ok how about "actively perform a singular activity in sequence in order to unlock a feature".

Sure, and this definition does not fit hero point acquisition.

[Gibson.4036]

1 minute ago, Randulf.7614 said:

 I think that is because they don't really have the ideas in place and the experience to balance them and with constantly changing profession teams, things have got muddled.

It also appears there is some pressure to make the most recent ESpecs more desireable to sell the latest expansion.

Clearly that's not hard and fast. We still have old ESpecs that stay at the top, but there is enough of a trend I think it's safe to conclude.

[Gravitron.7982]

4 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

It also appears there is some pressure to make the most recent ESpecs more desireable to sell the latest expansion.

Clearly that's not hard and fast. We still have old ESpecs that stay at the top, but there is enough of a trend I think it's safe to conclude.

Which makes sense, you want to sell an Expac, well you need to get players interested in buying them. What gets them interested in buying them? Make the elite specs more attractive to play than the core specs via power level, then lock the elite specs behind a grind. From a business standpoint, this makes total sense to do.

[Gravitron.7982]

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

My argument is that you are using different metrics to define grind based around your personal preference and that is not necessarily a strong argument.

Sure, and this definition does not fit hero point acquisition.

So how would you describe the acquisition of 250 hero points? Idle farming? Idle obtaining? You actively have to play the game in order to get 250 hero points right? Or are you saying that 250 points can be handed to you by just simply logging into the game like the daily login rewards?

[Randulf.7614]

Just now, Gibson.4036 said:

It also appears there is some pressure to make the most recent ESpecs more desireable to sell the latest expansion.

Clearly that's not hard and fast. We still have old ESpecs that stay at the top, but there is enough of a trend I think it's safe to conclude.

Yes, likely. A shame too beause it is anti what GW2 is about. But, that is a whole other discussion!

[Gravitron.7982]

12 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

 The system is strong, the system works, the system is fair and uncomplicated and rewards playing the game naturally.

 

So based on this, in order to unlock hero points, I have to actively play the game right? They aren't just handed to me simply by logging in?

[Cernoch.8524]

If you have to actively playing the game that doesnt mean its grind, not everything atleast. Grind is when you have to for example repeat one and the same event for many hours/days or when you have to farm xp, like in BDO, thas what I would call grind. In GW...maybe getting enough LI from raids or tickets from wvw for lege armor. 

Doing ONE thing ONCE (Hero Points) simply isnt grind, if you just think about it it even cant be considered as grind. You have to do it ONCE. The fact that you have to do it on every character is completely different thing.

[Randulf.7614]

1 minute ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

So based on this, in order to unlock hero points, I have to actively play the game right? They aren't just handed to me simply by logging in?

You got it!

[Cernoch.8524]

4 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

So based on this, in order to unlock hero points, I have to actively play the game right? They aren't just handed to me simply by logging in?

Does it also mean that anything that is not handed to you by logging in is a grind in your eyes? 😄

[Freya.9075]

Doing 25 hero points which takes a couple of hours is not a grind. It’s called playing the game.  You’re free to feel differently though. If you want to do nothing to get your progress, rpg games is probably not for you. 

 

[Gravitron.7982]

1 minute ago, Randulf.7614 said:

You got it!

And how many times would I have to actively use a Hero Point node before the game allowed me to have an elite spec fully unlocked?

[Cernoch.8524]

3 minutes ago, Freya.9075 said:

Doing 25 hero points which takes a couple of hours is not a grind. It’s called playing the game.  You’re free to feel differently though. If you want to do nothing to get your progress, rpg games is probably not for you. 

Not even couple of hours, if you know what HPs to do it can take even less than an hour. Much grind...

[Gravitron.7982]

Just now, Cernoch.8524 said:

Not even couple of hours, if you know what HPs to do it can take even less than an hour. Much grind...

And if someone doesn't know, like I don't know....a new player? Much logic....

[Cernoch.8524]

3 minutes ago, entrailsgalore.4150 said:

And if someone doesn't know, like I don't know....a new player? Much logic....

Then you try the one you dont know, if you cant get it, you will not stay there and keep trying for hours, you ask for help and if none comes you move to other one? Sounds lofical right?