Is 25 stacks of might too much for wvw?

[Junkpile.7439]

Well boons are handicap system for lower skills player. I barealy use boons and won't join squad.

[Chaba.5410]

22 minutes ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Well boons are handicap system for lower skills player. I barealy use boons and won't join squad.

"Low quality trolling since launch "

[blp.3489]

3 hours ago, zengara.8301 said:

Edit: In "theory" it sounds good, if you completely isolate boons. But in reality, if you chop off healing/cleansing/boons. And at the same time, lower dps. 3 necros that might down 30 people (back then, with dps build) in a 80 vs 25, will now down 10 and wont be able to kill them., meanwhile "burst cleansing" will only heal you for the first random 2 necros that throw their wells where it would hit 25% health, because these 2 necros from the blob are bad. But what about the 8+ others necros? Now you don't have healing/boons nor damage, because the massive cooldown. Suddenly skill does not matter, it is just about numbers. I don't know how else to explain this. But boons are not the issue

I'll say up front that I am neither very experienced or all that skilled, and certainly don't play in a fight guild so I've got a different perspective.  I spend most of my time playing small scale on borderlands but will join a blob on more populated maps when trying to play small scale is just a death sentence.  Or I want to finish off the weeklies.

Anyway, I would prefer the game not be designed around giving a group of 25 skilled players the ability to destroy a group of 80 less skilled players.  Maybe I'm not parsing it correctly but I certainly don't like the idea of 3 necros downing 30 players.

I may not be the best person to judge but I think there is enough room for skill expression in having a tightly coordinated group of skilled players outplaying a somewhat larger group of less skilled, less coordinated players without the need for extensive boon sharing on either side.  I don't see the careful setting up of specified specialized builds into squad subgroups to achieve permanent might, fury, quickness, alacrity etc. as the type of skill expression that I find appealing.  Conversely, I also don't find running around in a large unopposed group running over smaller groups, capturing undefended objectives and tagging enemies very fulfilling either.

Perhaps open world pve has predisposed a lot of players to adopt a semiautonomous playstyle.  What I get out of wvw is foremost the unpredictability of players versus the over-predictability of npcs combined with cooperative play that's more than just another player being there beating on the same boss.  And unlike instanced pve there isn't a rigid script for how an encounter will play out.

Am I just another of "those players" that gets thrashed and runs to the forums calling for their opponents to be nerfed?  Probably guilty as charged.  I don't actually expect Anet to change anything anyway, I just would love to have a wvw-like game mode that isn't heavily influenced by group boon sharing, where a group of players bring their individual strengths and weaknesses together and fight other groups of similar sizes and triumph or fall based on their individual abilities and ability to coordinate actions rather than based on the coordination of their builds and boon sharing ability.

P.S.  If I could change just one thing about gw2 my priority would be ending stacking, I can't think of anything more detrimental to my sense of reasonable "realism" than forty players all standing in the same place.

[Xenesis.6389]

3 hours ago, zengara.8301 said:

Well, the issue is that nobody is discussing it. Or at the very least, genuinely thinking about what it does. People are just thinking that "if they nerf boons, it somehow turns back to base game", without thinking about baby cages is 5 core hammer 5 guardian CC's or grave well, pulls you in and forces you into air and the immense amount of cc's they have added to the game etc. If you actually want to raise skill level, you increase damage, boons and healing.

When damage got nerfed, the biggest change every skilled guild saw, was that they could not kill a blob as easily, because cordinated spike killed 20 less players so 80 people can just wet noodle their way to victory, based on numbers. Then they nerfed healing/boons and now it is impossible for smaller guilds to fight a blob, simply because the "skilled players" that could actually use the skills accordingly, is now limited/waiting to use their skills accordingly. "Burst low duration" just ends up with blob winning, because they got more, meanwhile the smaller guild is done after 1 push

1. They continued to nerf boon strips the past two years, winds, throw mines, null field, break enchantments, phantasmal defender, trail of anguish, sigil of absorption, etc.

2. They nerfed damage of the big aoe skills.

3. They reduced all target caps to 5, only a couple exceptions remain, we even had groups spamming Rise! to mitigate aoe damage.

4. They added concentration to celestial, the more tanky set that's probably the most common set for roamers/zerg pugs now.

5. Increased boon spam.

These are all reasons why it's harder for a 20 comp to kill a 40 comp.

 

Feels like every time we have a discussion on boons, we get a counter to them nerfed, to the point it feels like anet does it out of spite, and then we get that joke they're going to investigate boon application vs removal, hasn't happened in 8 months now. Overall I don't particularly agree with this idea to nerf stacks of might, it's an across the board nerf and I feel like maybe more individual boon application spam problems should be looked at instead.

But in the end Anet does, not, care. Boon spam, this is the way, it is known.

[zengara.8301]

4 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

I'll say up front that I am neither very experienced or all that skilled, and certainly don't play in a fight guild so I've got a different perspective.  I spend most of my time playing small scale on borderlands but will join a blob on more populated maps when trying to play small scale is just a death sentence.  Or I want to finish off the weeklies.

Anyway, I would prefer the game not be designed around giving a group of 25 skilled players the ability to destroy a group of 80 less skilled players.  Maybe I'm not parsing it correctly but I certainly don't like the idea of 3 necros downing 30 players.

I may not be the best person to judge but I think there is enough room for skill expression in having a tightly coordinated group of skilled players outplaying a somewhat larger group of less skilled, less coordinated players without the need for extensive boon sharing on either side.  I don't see the careful setting up of specified specialized builds into squad subgroups to achieve permanent might, fury, quickness, alacrity etc. as the type of skill expression that I find appealing.  Conversely, I also don't find running around in a large unopposed group running over smaller groups, capturing undefended objectives and tagging enemies very fulfilling either.

Perhaps open world pve has predisposed a lot of players to adopt a semiautonomous playstyle.  What I get out of wvw is foremost the unpredictability of players versus the over-predictability of npcs combined with cooperative play that's more than just another player being there beating on the same boss.  And unlike instanced pve there isn't a rigid script for how an encounter will play out.

Am I just another of "those players" that gets thrashed and runs to the forums calling for their opponents to be nerfed?  Probably guilty as charged.  I don't actually expect Anet to change anything anyway, I just would love to have a wvw-like game mode that isn't heavily influenced by group boon sharing, where a group of players bring their individual strengths and weaknesses together and fight other groups of similar sizes and triumph or fall based on their individual abilities and ability to coordinate actions rather than based on the coordination of their builds and boon sharing ability.

P.S.  If I could change just one thing about gw2 my priority would be ending stacking, I can't think of anything more detrimental to my sense of reasonable "realism" than forty players all standing in the same place.

Well, I think the reason Gw2 wvw game, is probably one of the most "live open world mmo pvp" game out, is precisely because of cordination and excecution of the skills together used against an enemy group, forcing the enemy group to bomb, avoiding that bomb and responding, back and forth, until the more cordinated group/better commander wins. Obviously again, the current meta seems very 1 push heavy, if you are smaller against bigger groups, you usually only got 1 shot. But I think the reason other games dies out, is simply because they do not have that. From ganking to lack of cordinated skills required in game compared to gear level, or just being more than the enemy group, number wise. The more Gw2 seems to go that way, the more boring the gameplay is for many that play the game, it seems. It is just not fun, if skill is not involved, and obviously limiting the amount of skills you can use/dmg output&boons, result in a numbers game and little skill.

 

Maybe I am completely wrong, but it sounds less like you want this fast phased mmo experience, and more of a massive siege kind of game, that feels realistic, where the walls are sky high and you are all zoomed into your character holding a realistic weapon, where there is an army slowly entering a castle and people dying from arrows etc?`I just do not think games like that can survive for very long, even though it looks good at that moment, it becomes to slow and honestly, just boring. But maybe I completely misunderstood what you are looking for

[zengara.8301]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

1. They continued to nerf boon strips the past two years, winds, throw mines, null field, break enchantments, phantasmal defender, trail of anguish, sigil of absorption, etc.

2. They nerfed damage of the big aoe skills.

3. They reduced all target caps to 5, only a couple exceptions remain, we even had groups spamming Rise! to mitigate aoe damage.

4. They added concentration to celestial, the more tanky set that's probably the most common set for roamers/zerg pugs now.

5. Increased boon spam.

These are all reasons why it's harder for a 20 comp to kill a 40 comp.

 

Feels like every time we have a discussion on boons, we get a counter to them nerfed, to the point it feels like anet does it out of spite, and then we get that joke they're going to investigate boon application vs removal, hasn't happened in 8 months now. Overall I don't particularly agree with this idea to nerf stacks of might, it's an across the board nerf and I feel like maybe more individual boon application spam problems should be looked at instead.

But in the end Anet does, not, care. Boon spam, this is the way, it is known.

I don't think that is a fair assetment, counting the numbers of patches in the forums, where 1 patch for nerfing boons/dmg/healing was insanely massive vs smaller patches for boonstripping, rather than the actual numbers presented (I do think bubble got nerfed way to hard though), and showcased in the game, or at the very least, the conclusion as I write here. I agree with number 2, but that is the biggest reason. They fully reworked Firebrand to give massively less boons, and scrapper to give massively less healing, now (burst healing/cleanse) vs back when retaliation was a thing, or even around PoF.

 

I mean hopefully im making sense, but if a smaller group have a burst healing/boons, it is simply less skillful, compared to bigger group that can just spam these skills, because they are more. (Unless the entire thing is about 1 push)

 

Obviously you agree that less damage is bad, since smaller group can really not do anything at that point, but the same concept goes for healing/boons, the smaller guild can not survive, if all it can survive is literally 1 push, and then it just have to barely run away and wait for the FB/cleanser cooldowns (which wont happen realistically, when you are in, you need to also take care of all the pulls, random ranged dmg etc).

[MarzAttakz.9608]

5 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

I'll say up front that I am neither very experienced or all that skilled, and certainly don't play in a fight guild so I've got a different perspective.  I spend most of my time playing small scale on borderlands but will join a blob on more populated maps when trying to play small scale is just a death sentence.  Or I want to finish off the weeklies.

Anyway, I would prefer the game not be designed around giving a group of 25 skilled players the ability to destroy a group of 80 less skilled players.  Maybe I'm not parsing it correctly but I certainly don't like the idea of 3 necros downing 30 players.

I may not be the best person to judge but I think there is enough room for skill expression in having a tightly coordinated group of skilled players outplaying a somewhat larger group of less skilled, less coordinated players without the need for extensive boon sharing on either side.  I don't see the careful setting up of specified specialized builds into squad subgroups to achieve permanent might, fury, quickness, alacrity etc. as the type of skill expression that I find appealing.  Conversely, I also don't find running around in a large unopposed group running over smaller groups, capturing undefended objectives and tagging enemies very fulfilling either.

Perhaps open world pve has predisposed a lot of players to adopt a semiautonomous playstyle.  What I get out of wvw is foremost the unpredictability of players versus the over-predictability of npcs combined with cooperative play that's more than just another player being there beating on the same boss.  And unlike instanced pve there isn't a rigid script for how an encounter will play out.

Am I just another of "those players" that gets thrashed and runs to the forums calling for their opponents to be nerfed?  Probably guilty as charged.  I don't actually expect Anet to change anything anyway, I just would love to have a wvw-like game mode that isn't heavily influenced by group boon sharing, where a group of players bring their individual strengths and weaknesses together and fight other groups of similar sizes and triumph or fall based on their individual abilities and ability to coordinate actions rather than based on the coordination of their builds and boon sharing ability.

P.S.  If I could change just one thing about gw2 my priority would be ending stacking, I can't think of anything more detrimental to my sense of reasonable "realism" than forty players all standing in the same place.

Back at launch before everything went to kitten you could 25vs40-50 and out skill those numbers.

I know this is nostalgia and serves no real purpose in today's environment but skill as mentioned by Zengara entailed the following (much of which forms part of standard squad play but then wasn't common knowledge):

- Squad composition

- Role communication

- Ebb and flow: push, engage, withdraw, feint, rebuff etc.

- Combo fields and blasting as your primary boon source before and during a fight

- Out maneuver and out position your enemy

- Successful and strategic use of stealth

Stacking back then was primarily for two reasons: you had to be inside a field to get the boons when blasting, slight abuse of the target cap.

It's a different story today, and I'm not saying there isn't skillful play because there is - however with the changes to target caps (reduced), number of allies affected (reduced), field blasting optional due to anything and everything shitting out boons, strips and corrupts reduced; in most cases it boils down to numbers drowning out whatever skillful plays were made.

The skill is still evident in some of the smaller havoc groups running exceptionally complimentary builds meant to sustain and out pressure similar and slightly larger opposition and perhaps evident in those 50man fight guild boon balls but outside of that, to me at least, the game has sadly devolved into a numbers game.

EDIT: Here's a very comedic example of what I mean (this wasn't particularly skillful play on our part)... But watch our bars and note the boons back then.

https://youtu.be/k8YngWj3a7s

Edited May 7, 2023 by MarzAttakz.9608
Added video

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 5/6/2023 at 1:29 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

You're really not arguing for damage being low here.

The issue there is that people can build with so much sustain that damage can feel too low on some classes that fight said bunkers while at the same time people can roll full glass and get sneezed into downstate.

I would contend that some skills should be doing more damage than they are and that some boons (protection and resolution) and some conditions (weakness) together create too much damage reduction on top of the increased amount of defensive stats in this game mode.

This really is a byproduct of the Feb2020 patch trying to balance WvW like it is PvP when it doesn't have the same gear system.

[aspirine.6852]

Does a bear sh... in the woods?  Of course it is way too much.