Please change moa

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

In general I think longer duration CC, especially on hard CC that locks you out of both skills and movement should have longer casts and longer tells, it's not just a mesmer thing.

I accept that. I have advocated many times to give a bigger tell to pistol 5, since I'm the first abusing this thing so much; not just straight up removing the functionality for YET ANOTHER DAZE tho. I want to get a kill here and there.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 5/15/2023 at 2:58 PM, apharma.3741 said:

CS is a balancing nightmare, ANet can't even balance around a 20% CDR trait, you think they can handle a double cast anything mechanic? 

It's actually fine. This isn't really the thread for this discussion but back when Chrono didn't have Distortion it was fairly on par with core (still a bit better but not hugely). Which is why I was against adding Distortion again (if they removed it again now they would obviously have to massively buff core Mesmer). Not to mention it is a very fun mechanic and this game is supposed to be fun.

On 5/15/2023 at 2:58 PM, apharma.3741 said:

Magic bullet animation is fine, pistol trait is for interrupts so the cast and animation have to be fast. What is stupid is the 2s stun on something designed to interrupt. 0.5-1s daze but applies to each foe.

I didn't say that the cast time is too quick, I was talking about the animation itself - specifically, how subtle it is combined with looking very similar to pistol #4 (one solution to this would be to change the pistol 4 animation). If this were changed it would instantly be much more easier to dodge consistently. What Terrorhuz said would also probably be fine "some bright flash on the mesmer or something of the sorts". Your nerf idea would make pistol strictly inferior to focus in every scenario.

Edited May 17, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I'd rather they give mesmer the mobility to chase and keep up with classes or apply more cripple/chill than pack a 2s stun on a skill that's so fast casting and difficult to see coming, even with a windup animation like the put on PBS.
In general I think longer duration CC, especially on hard CC that locks you out of both skills and movement should have longer casts and longer tells, it's not just a mesmer thing.

If you nerf all these things people will just play easier-to-play things like Torch offhand or even Shield. Because why would you risk taking something which can get countered by blocks, dodges, projectile denial, etc, that doesn't give you much reward (just daze) when you can just take a really consistent defensive skill instead. Magic Bullet has been a 1/2s cast, 2s stun skill since launch and hasn't been a problem, in fact for most of the duration of this game pistol hasn't been meta.

Edited May 15, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[semak.7481]

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

If you nerf all these things people will just play easier-to-play things like Torch offhand or even Shield. Because why would you risk taking something which can get countered by blocks, dodges, projectile denial, etc, that doesn't give you much reward (just daze) when you can just take a really consistent defensive skill instead. Magic Bullet has been a 1/2s cast, 2s stun skill since launch and hasn't been a problem, in fact for most of the duration of this game pistol hasn't been meta.

I can sign under every word.

Btw can we make unblockable gale (which basically has no tell nor projectile or warning) on ele be ~0.5-1s daze ? ty

[apharma.3741]

6 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I accept that. I have advocated many times to give a bigger tell to pistol 5, since I'm the first abusing this thing so much; not just straight up removing the functionality for YET ANOTHER DAZE tho. I want to get a kill here and there.

Then the solution to keeping the stun would be to increase the cast and animation and change the trait to be a strait CDR....oh wait they're removing them aren't they? I dunno I can't keep up with ANet devs balance philosophy as it only seems to apply when they want to make their favourite classes stronger and their least favourite weaker.

Edited May 15, 2023 by apharma.3741

[apharma.3741]

6 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

It's actually fine. This isn't really the thread for this discussion but back when Chrono didn't have Distortion it was fairly on par with core (still a bit better but not hugely). Which is why I was against adding Distortion again (if they removed it again now they would obviously have to massively buff core Mesmer, which I am in favor of). Not to mention it is a very fun mechanic and this game is supposed to be fun.

I didn't say that the cast time is too quick, I was talking about the animation itself - specifically, how subtle it is combined with looking very similar to pistol #4 (one solution to this would be to change the pistol 4 animation). If this were changed it would instantly be much more easier to dodge consistently. What Terrorhuz said would also probably be fine "some bright flash on the mesmer or something of the sorts". Your nerf idea would make pistol strictly inferior to focus in every scenario.

Chrono without distortion is just too easy to focus down, especially as they were trying to move it away from burst damage to more consistent damage like the shatter reworks seemed to start...before being nerfed with the IP update because mesmer. Continuum split has been one of the banes of mesmer since chrono came out, doubling up on any strong utility or elite inherently has to mean they are kept weaker otherwise using them twice leads to what happened with phantasm utilities, half the wells in PvE and an assortment of other changes related to PvE tank chrono and PvP phantasm spam chrono.
It's very difficult to make an offhand animation clearer as the character is only using one hand, especially if it has to be quick too, you could go completely over the top but it would look very weird and this game really does put a heavy emphasis on it's animations and style.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

9 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Continuum split has been one of the banes of mesmer since chrono came out, doubling up on any strong utility or elite inherently has to mean they are kept weaker otherwise using them twice leads to what happened with phantasm utilities, half the wells in PvE and an assortment of other changes related to PvE tank chrono and PvP phantasm spam chrono.

"leads to what happened with phantasm utilities"
"PvP phantasm spam chrono"
That was fueled by Chronophantasma specifically. A trait that I've long advocated for removing/reworking. A trait that has been both more problematic and less fun than CS.

9 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

It's very difficult to make an offhand animation clearer as the character is only using one hand, especially if it has to be quick too, you could go completely over the top but it would look very weird and this game really does put a heavy emphasis on it's animations and style.

It's not hard, for example imagine you make Phantasmal Duelist have an animation where you put your hand up in the air (remember how the old Phantasmal Berserker animation used to look like) that would already mean Magic Bullet would be more easy to discern. Or just add some kind of flash or glow as Terrorhuz said. There are a ton of options.

Edited May 15, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Luthan.5236]

"Real" PvP soon again. Run away in moa form let the other 4 team mates "distract" (or they can just spike him down) the guy that wanted to moa you and kill you. Problem solved. 😄

[apharma.3741]

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

"leads to what happened with phantasm utilities"
"PvP phantasm spam chrono"
That was fueled by Chronophantasma specifically. A trait that I've long advocated for removing/reworking. A trait that has been both more problematic and less fun than CS.

It's not hard, for example imagine you make Phantasmal Duelist have an animation where you put your hand up in the air (remember how the old Phantasmal Berserker animation used to look like) that would already mean Magic Bullet would be more easy to discern. Or just add some kind of flash or glow as Terrorhuz said. There are a ton of options.

Old berserker animation worked because it was a massive 2H weapon, putting one hand up in the air not be as obvious as you think due to pistols being small and that's without mentioning how silly it would look for shooting. Adding more flash to the game really isn't the answer, it's already a visual eyesore with all the "particle" effects and flashes.

Chronophantasm was part of the problem but also double casting it all was the other part of the problem. CS is why most utilities on mesmer are kinda poo, because chrono can double cast them, and it's yet another reason to keep mesmer in a state of not as strong as other classes. Won't be long till they start nerfing the CS shatter burst combo which not only lets you unload massive spike damage but teleports you back to safety where you can try again if you failed.
Conveniently forgetting the signet of inspiration multiple nerfs due to CS, the multiple well nerfs till they're now pretty much zone control spam. We have double moa, double gravity well and both of those are not fun at all, many people here would have less of an issue with moa if chrono couldn't use it straight after if they messed up.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

the multiple well nerfs till they're now pretty much zone control spam.

HI, MY SIGNATURE HAS OPINIONS ABOUT THE WELLS CHANGES AND I'M HERE SPECIFICALLY TO SPREAD MORE PROPAGANDA CIAO

ALSO CHRONO COULD GET A CHANNELED INVULN FOR THEIR F4, INSTEAD OF DISTORTION, SO THAT YOU CAN'T USE IT TO COVER YOUR CS BURST ANYMORE

Edited May 16, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[dead.7638]

All mesmer skills need a 10 second cast time and afterwards another 10 second animation to please the player base of gw2 community.   There you go all, are you happy?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Old berserker animation worked because it was a massive 2H weapon, putting one hand up in the air not be as obvious as you think due to pistols being small and that's without mentioning how silly it would look for shooting. Adding more flash to the game really isn't the answer, it's already a visual eyesore with all the "particle" effects and flashes.

I do not understand why you are so unreasonably insistent that the issue of two offhand skills having 90% the same animation and thus being difficult to distinguish from each other would be impossible to fix. There is no justification for this.

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Chronophantasm was part of the problem but also double casting it all was the other part of the problem. CS is why most utilities on mesmer are kinda poo, because chrono can double cast them, and it's yet another reason to keep mesmer in a state of not as strong as other classes.

No, this is simply not true. Most utilities on Mesmer were the same or weaker before Chronomancer was even added to the game. That includes things like Mirror Images, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Mantras, Illusion of Life, ...

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Won't be long till they start nerfing the CS shatter burst combo which not only lets you unload massive spike damage but teleports you back to safety where you can try again if you failed.

That would be a very stupid decision by the balance team.

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Conveniently forgetting the signet of inspiration multiple nerfs due to CS,

I don't care about PvE.

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

the multiple well nerfs till they're now pretty much zone control spam.

This is irrelevant because Wells are only available on Chrono so of course they should be balanced with regards to CS, it doesn't mean anything. You might have had a point if lots of core utilities had been nerfed because of CS but this is not the case. Besides, we recently got a massive well buff with the new Stretched Time trait (Alacrity on Wells). Yes, this was a stupid change because it makes all wells about equal instead of being more unique and good in different situations. But this is a problem of Anet being lazy with their trait/skill design and not with CS - not in any way.

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

We have double moa, double gravity well and both of those are not fun at all, many people here would have less of an issue with moa if chrono couldn't use it straight after if they messed up.

Double Gravity Well is silly to complain about because it is exclusive to Chronomancer, thus it is trivial to balance it with regards to CS.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Double Gravity Well is silly to complain about because it is exclusive to Chronomancer, thus it is trivial to balance it with regards to CS.

If gravity well gets nerfed I riot.

[Waffles.5632]

21 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I accept that. I have advocated many times to give a bigger tell to pistol 5, since I'm the first abusing this thing so much; not just straight up removing the functionality for YET ANOTHER DAZE tho. I want to get a kill here and there.

If pistol 5 gets nerfed I riot! 😄

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 minute ago, Waffles.5632 said:

If pistol 5 gets nerfed I riot! 😄

 Not necessarily a nerf, just a bigger tell. Either a more visible animation or a particle effect on cast start, so that people can actually dodge it if they're good with reflexes. Kind of like arching slice for warriors: it's definitely not weak and it's definitely not slow, but the animation is visible enough for counterplay to exist, if you know what you're doing.

[Waffles.5632]

6 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

 Not necessarily a nerf, just a bigger tell. Either a more visible animation or a particle effect on cast start, so that people can actually dodge it if they're good with reflexes. Kind of like arching slice for warriors: it's definitely not weak and it's definitely not slow, but the animation is visible enough for counterplay to exist, if you know what you're doing.

There is a big tell, but I'll be the first to admit it's not intuitive nor reliable all the time, mostly just in 1v1 scenarios and that's the big sound pistol 5 makes. This requires in game volume on though and I know a lot of people don't play like that. Also in team fights can't really pick up on any specific sounds with all the noise.

I'm only hesitant to agree because Anet just buffed it, which IMO, the buff was too much. I feel like pistol 5 is up allllllll the time now, BUT!!! Mesmer is the weakest class in pvp atm (virtuoso excluded) so I'm being hush hush in general about it all.

I want kills too yeah! hahaha 😭

 

Edit : Also I don't really pvp anymore really, just wanted to try out the pistol buffs for old times sake, so take this with a grain of salt!

Edited May 16, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Terrorhuz.4695]

6 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

There is a big tell, but I'll be the first to admit it's not intuitive nor reliable all the time, mostly just in 1v1 scenarios and that's the big sound pistol 5 makes

The big sounds starts when you shoot the projectile; the projectile itself isn't really that fast, so that counts as a proper telegraph for anything beyond 600 range. In melee, tho? You're definitely not going to see that one coming. Animation is very subtle, sound will start when it's already too late. That, for a 2s stun, is really questionable IMHO. Buff to pistol4 was long overdue, pistol5 definitely didn't need it IMHO.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Waffles.5632]

@Terrorhuz.4695 Agree!!

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I do not understand why you are so unreasonably insistent that the issue of two offhand skills having 90% the same animation and thus being difficult to distinguish from each other would be impossible to fix. There is no justification for this.

No, this is simply not true. Most utilities on Mesmer were the same or weaker before Chronomancer was even added to the game. That includes things like Mirror Images, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Mantras, Illusion of Life, ...

That would be a very stupid decision by the balance team.

I don't care about PvE.

This is irrelevant because Wells are only available on Chrono so of course they should be balanced with regards to CS, it doesn't mean anything. You might have had a point if lots of core utilities had been nerfed because of CS but this is not the case. Besides, we recently got a massive well buff with the new Stretched Time trait (Alacrity on Wells). Yes, this was a stupid change because it makes all wells about equal instead of being more unique and good in different situations. But this is a problem of Anet being lazy with their trait/skill design and not with CS - not in any way.

Double Gravity Well is silly to complain about because it is exclusive to Chronomancer, thus it is trivial to balance it with regards to CS.

You don't understand probably because you don't think about animations, they have to be fluid and make sense within the timing of the skill. I'm not saying they should have the same animation, I'm saying that it's borderline impossible to make an offhand animation as clearly readable as magic bullet should be at a 2s stun due to being an offhand and being far smaller than a massive greatsword being held up in the air. 

Mesmer utilities haven't changed that much over the years and have always been kinda meh (hence why blink and decoy have been mainstays for so long), the ones that have changed have either been elite specs, redesigns and/or often been abused by elite specs like see list below.

You can say it would be a stupid decision but you can see the argument for it even if you're unwilling to acknowledge or want to believe it has merit. You can see it in that Short's clip plain as day in round 3, tries to one shot the berserker with split second, doesn't manage it (looks like he fat fingered Rewinder) and goes at it again. 

I did have a point, core utilities that were nerfed because of continuum split:
Signet of Inspiration - Literally used to prestack boons and infinitely copy or refresh.
Timewarp - Quickness changes due to CS in PvE and put into PvP/WvW. CD kept high due to CS. You can choose not to care or dismiss is but that doesn't mean my point doesn't hold true.
Signet of Humility - was nerfed because of chrono using it in CS and balanced around a CS cool down until recently.
This video by Feint Fate really shows how abusive CS was at it's height and why aftercasts were removed randomly.
There's a few other traits like phantasmal force that were also nerfed due to chrono stacking boons that don't get reset. I've stayed away from phantasms because you will just claim it's chronophantasma without realising CS is the chronophantasma to every skill once every ~90s.

Wells - The point is they were always being balanced around continuum split and often not around their use or strength, so often were pretty poor. You can choose to ignore that or claim it's a non issue but that doesn't change that the presence of CS is always a limiting factor to the skills strength, something you're clearly ignoring.

[dead.7638]

Why are we complaining about one skill from an off hand?   The phantasms alone should be enough of a tell sign to know it’s coming….  Some people tf.   Its other skill is a daze? Maybe a stun?   I forget but there is no need or reason to nerf any Mesmer off hand.   That’s just a bit much?   The amounts of copium needed in this game is ridiculous.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

You don't understand probably because you don't think about animations, they have to be fluid and make sense within the timing of the skill. I'm not saying they should have the same animation, I'm saying that it's borderline impossible to make an offhand animation as clearly readable as magic bullet should be at a 2s stun due to being an offhand and being far smaller than a massive greatsword being held up in the air. 

It really, really, really is not. Even Spinal Shivers with its green-black glow and unique hand waveing motion is much more recognizable. Also look at something like Guardian Focus (and no, it isn't about cast time). You can absolutely make good animation for offhands.

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Mesmer utilities haven't changed that much over the years and have always been kinda meh (hence why blink and decoy have been mainstays for so long), the ones that have changed have either been elite specs, redesigns and/or often been abused by elite specs like see list below.

Yes. So then why say "CS is why most utilities on mesmer are kinda poo, because chrono can double cast them". This is clearly an incorrect statement.

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

You can say it would be a stupid decision but you can see the argument for it even if you're unwilling to acknowledge or want to believe it has merit. You can see it in that Short's clip plain as day in round 3, tries to one shot the berserker with split second, doesn't manage it (looks like he fat fingered Rewinder) and goes at it again. 

2v2 is garbage.

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I did have a point, core utilities that were nerfed because of continuum split:
Signet of Inspiration - Literally used to prestack boons and infinitely copy or refresh.

This one is true, though this is and was only relevant for PvE.

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Timewarp - Quickness changes due to CS in PvE and put into PvP/WvW. CD kept high due to CS. You can choose not to care or dismiss is but that doesn't mean my point doesn't hold true.

An elite skill, not a utility.

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Signet of Humility - was nerfed because of chrono using it in CS and balanced around a CS cool down until recently.
This video by Feint Fate really shows how abusive CS was at it's height and why aftercasts were removed randomly.
There's a few other traits like phantasmal force that were also nerfed due to chrono stacking boons that don't get reset. I've stayed away from phantasms because you will just claim it's chronophantasma without realising CS is the chronophantasma to every skill once every ~90s.

An elite skill, not a utility.

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Wells - The point is they were always being balanced around continuum split and often not around their use or strength, so often were pretty poor. You can choose to ignore that or claim it's a non issue but that doesn't change that the presence of CS is always a limiting factor to the skills strength, something you're clearly ignoring.

Of course the Wells should be balanced around CS existing. I do not ignore this whatsoever. However, this is not a problem in any way.

Ok, so above we went over one core Mesmer utility that we could say got hard nerfed because of CS (Signet of Inspiration), yet you said "CS is why most utilities on mesmer are kinda poo"

If you had said elite skills instead, that would have been a better argument. On that note, I actually advocated for Continuum Split not working for elite skills back in the day (similar to how it doesn't work for Mimic). You could also easily make elite skills have a, say, 50% or 100% longer cooldown for Chrono if you wanted to. Though I don't think this is worth caring about right now, it isn't really an issue (even in PvE I'm pretty sure Virtuoso is much better than Chrono these days, could be wrong). Let's say that Distortion hypothetically was removed from Chrono again. That would be a pretty significant and fair tradeoff for being able to double your skills once every 90 seconds.

Edited May 16, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[semak.7481]

10 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Let's say that Distortion hypothetically was removed from Chrono again. That would be a pretty significant and fair tradeoff for being able to double your skills once every 90 seconds.

In a world where almost every "tradeoff" was removed. Then chrono would return to being super-trash again.

Big brain time /s

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Hello? CHANNELED INVULN INSTEAD OF DISTORTION? So CS can still exist, chrono can still exist but you can't use distortion to cover your super duper wombo combo?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

5 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

In a world where almost every "tradeoff" was removed. Then chrono would return to being super-trash again.

Big brain time /s

That's why I said in my reply to you before that "if they removed it again now they would obviously have to massively buff core Mesmer"
Edit: sorry, it was in reply to Apharma. You have the same profile picture.

Edited May 17, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[semak.7481]

11 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

That's why I said in my reply to you before that "if they removed it again now they would obviously have to massively buff core Mesmer"

When the last time they compensated overnerfing something? On mesmer specially, I remember a lot of nerfs in stupid attempts to nerf chrono/mirage left core fkd up until now.