Please change moa

[Terrorhuz.4695]

8 minutes ago, Fenris.8563 said:

Ok so what if you don't have blind and they're in stealth?

You get hit by the moa, just like you would get hit by a maul, a grenade barrage, a backstab or whatever. That's what people run stealth for in this game.

[Fenris.8563]

14 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

You get hit by the moa, just like you would get hit by a maul, a grenade barrage, a backstab or whatever. That's what people run stealth for in this game.

Except maul is INCREDIBLY slow and telegraphed,  and .... just does damage + vulnerability (AOO if you have it spec'd).    This isn't remotely comparable.  I also can't just turn stealth and run around.

As a ranger our stealth options only occur under special conditions and only last a few seconds.   Literally Moa lasts longer than even our stealth lol This just is not comparable.  At all.  This ain't it 

[doozer.7063]

29 minutes ago, Fenris.8563 said:

Ok so what if you don't have blind and they're in stealth?

 

Awareness, movement and positioning are the best counters vs stealthed mesmers. Those counters don't even have cooldown . Feel free to use them. Mesmers with moa have no mass invis and in general pretty bad mobility. You most likely will see him before he uses stealth. Chromo gives you an extra warning most of the time with continuum split appearing on the ground. 

And a longbow/ gs smokescale ranger can stealth more often than a moa mesmer. Comparing moa duration to steath duration does not make sense in the first place. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by doozer.7063

[Fenris.8563]

2 minutes ago, doozer.7063 said:

Awareness, movement and positioning are the best counters vs stealthed mesmers. Those counters don't even have cooldown . Feel free to use them. Mesmers with moa have no mass invis and in general pretty bad mobility. You most likely will see him before he uses stealth. Chromo gives you an extra warning most of the time with continuum split appearing on the ground. 

So while we're in a 1v2 or there's just a larger skirmish going on it's just all good to get turned into a stupid Moa and have the game be ruined for us?  nah

I want to play the character I built for PVP.  Not a Moa lmao It's incredibly dumb and it's really unnecessary.

Again, turn it into a CC in which we can break out of like any other CC.   It shouldn't change our hotbars at all.

[doozer.7063]

3 minutes ago, Fenris.8563 said:

So while we're in a 1v2 or there's just a larger skirmish going on it's just all good to get turned into a stupid Moa and have the game be ruined for us?  nah

I want to play the character I built for PVP.  Not a Moa lmao It's incredibly dumb and it's really unnecessary.

Again, turn it into a CC in which we can break out of like any other CC.   It shouldn't change our hotbars at all.

I gave you ways to deal with it. I can do it, others can go it. And yes even in teamfights and outnumbered fights.  Having an eye on respawns and rotations can help. It is up to you to improve or to die. Luckily not my problem 🤗

Edited May 21, 2023 by doozer.7063

[Fenris.8563]

15 minutes ago, doozer.7063 said:

I gave you ways to deal with it. I can do it, others can go it. And yes even in teamfights and outnumbered fights.  Having an eye on respawns and rotations can help. It is up to you to improve or to die. Luckily not my problem 🤗

I'll stick with speaking up about how dumb it is and hope it gets changed.  Because it is dumb.  It doesn't make sense for the pvp in this game.   I can't imagine the outrage there would be if Ranger had this or anything remotely similar at their disposal lmao because we all know it wouldn't last.

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

10 hours ago, Fenris.8563 said:

Except maul is INCREDIBLY slow and telegraphed,  and .... just does damage + vulnerability (AOO if you have it spec'd).    This isn't remotely comparable.  I also can't just turn stealth and run around.

As a ranger our stealth options only occur under special conditions and only last a few seconds.   Literally Moa lasts longer than even our stealth lol This just is not comparable.  At all.  This ain't it 

1) On gs you have stealth on 16s cd (swoop over the smokescale field), on lb your stealth has 12s cd. Every single stealth on mesmer has AT LEAST twice the cooldown, and all of them have 3s duration (except mass invis, but if you're running mass invis you're NOT running moa, so what's the problem?).

2) Signet of humility is even more telegraphed than maul (0.75s cast time for Maul, 1s cast time for Moa and a huge kitten signet on top of the mesmer), which again, is not an issue with stealth. Just like you can stealth into maul (and there's no counterplay other than awareness) a mesmer can stealth into moa (and there's no counterplay other than awareness).

Edited May 22, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[semak.7481]

33 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

On gs you have stealth on 16s cd (swoop over the smokescale field), on lb your stealth has 12s cd. Every single stealth on mesmer has AT LEAST twice the cooldown, and all of them have 3s duration (except mass invis, but if you're running mass invis you're NOT running moa, so what's the problem?).

Swapping pet is a blast, unleashed f2 is a blast too. Leaping through smokescale field is not the only way to get stealth

[Copyright.9082]

I enjoy getting moa'd. I have mastered the pecking abilities. I'm somewhat of a pro in moa form. You could almost say i'm a moa main. So please don't nerf what i've spent years mastering. 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

14 hours ago, Fenris.8563 said:

mesmers reacting 'cOnFuSeD' on every single point here don't make you right defending this ridiculous ability lmao just saying

 

Please check the reactions on literally all my posts.

Also, if you really think that "if you get morphed, you're dead 99%" I don't know what to tell you except read the skills and press #5 to dodge and run behind cover.

Edited May 22, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

 all of them have 3s duration

Even 2s for the most used stealth skill, Signet of Midnight

[SevlisBavles.3059]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Guild Wars 1 had a very similar skill called "Blackout". Touch your opponent, disable all their skills for x amount of seconds (based on one of your stats), disable all of your skills for 5 seconds.

Moa would be far more balanced, and "fun" to play against, with a similar mechanic. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by SevlisBavles.3059

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

14 hours ago, SevlisBavles.3059 said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Guild Wars 1 had a very similar skill called "Blackout". Touch your opponent, disable all their skills for x amount of seconds (based on one of your stats), disable all of your skills for 5 seconds.

Moa would be far more balanced, and "fun" to play against, with a similar mechanic. 

It wouldn't be more fun considering nobody would ever play it

[Leonidrex.5649]

People are honest to god complaining about moa. I never would have thought I would live to see it.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

People are honest to god complaining about moa. I never would have thought I would live to see it.

Probably means we're getting closer to balance if Moa is what people are trying to drag onto the chopping block now. No larger issues than "sometimes I get turned into a bird and don't know how to evade with it" 

[Leonidrex.5649]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Probably means we're getting closer to balance if Moa is what people are trying to drag onto the chopping block now. No larger issues than "sometimes I get turned into a bird and don't know how to evade with it" 

gw2 pvp balanced, yea right xd

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:27 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Probably means we're getting closer to balance if Moa is what people are trying to drag onto the chopping block now. No larger issues than "sometimes I get turned into a bird and don't know how to evade with it" 

The complaints about this shouldn't be downplayed. This is extremely abusive when 2 or 3 of them are stacked on a team. People who think this is "easy to avoid, easy to use bird evade" clearly have not recently gone into ATs to fight good players who have figured out how to abuse Chrono comps. It's not even that there isn't counterplay, it's that there is anti-counterplay. Keep in mind I'm saying this, a person with nearly 30,000 games played in GW2. I have titles like Champion Brawler. I've gone 11 years in this game and never once complained about Signet Of Humility, but recently, it really is a toxic problem.

You should have seen the AT I was in about 20 minutes ago, wish I would have recorded it for demo tbh.

The longer this goes on and the more people who are figuring out how to abuse the perfect no-escape bird into death combo, the more I'm thinking this is arguably as broken as Catalyst upon initial DT buff before nerfs. I'll honestly be surprised if Chrono doesn't see high representation in this coming MAT.

As far as: "where does the real problem lie?" I dunno. Moa isn't a problem on Mes/Mir/Vir. It's Chrono where it becomes a problem, due to Continuum Split. It's not that Moa changed, it's that parameters around Moa changed with Chrono buffs gradually over time, but it has somehow equated to Moa being the direct source of their ability to instantly delete targets with anti-counterplay. Tbh it's kind of a complex balance issue to address. I mean you don't want to nerf Moa for Mes/Mir/Vir, but how do you nerf Chrono without touching Moa at this point? Remove its distortion? Nerf Magic Bullet like others have said? Couldn't tell ya. All I'm saying is it is too strong right now.

Alternatively, Arenanet could do the one thing that really needs to happen, and just make it so in ATs there can only be one of each class. And I don't mean 1x Ele and 1x Tempest and 1x Catalyst. No, I mean you get 1 Ele, 1 War, 1 Guard, 1 Thief, and 1 Mesmer. This would actually be the STRONGEST method to balance this game that they could do. This way, even if a class is Godly-OP, you can only have 1 of them and there is still always reason to play with 4 other classes. <- This is the best route imo. It just needs to happen. Worry about fine class tuning afterwards. I mean even streams would be more fun to watch when there was more forced class diversity.

The people in here who are trying to defend this, are full of it.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Fenris.8563]

On 5/25/2023 at 9:07 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The complaints about this shouldn't be downplayed. This is extremely abusive when 2 or 3 of them are stacked on a team. People who think this is "easy to avoid, easy to use bird evade" clearly have not recently gone into ATs to fight good players who have figured out how to abuse Chrono comps. It's not even that there isn't counterplay, it's that there is anti-counterplay. Keep in mind I'm saying this, a person with nearly 30,000 games played in GW2. I have titles like Champion Brawler. I've gone 11 years in this game and never once complained about Signet Of Humility, but recently, it really is a toxic problem.

You should have seen the AT I was in about 20 minutes ago, wish I would have recorded it for demo tbh.

The longer this goes on and the more people who are figuring out how to abuse the perfect no-escape bird into death combo, the more I'm thinking this is arguably as broken as Catalyst upon initial DT buff before nerfs. I'll honestly be surprised if Chrono doesn't see high representation in this coming MAT.

As far as: "where does the real problem lie?" I dunno. Moa isn't a problem on Mes/Mir/Vir. It's Chrono where it becomes a problem, due to Continuum Split. It's not that Moa changed, it's that parameters around Moa changed with Chrono buffs gradually over time, but it has somehow equated to Moa being the direct source of their ability to instantly delete targets with anti-counterplay. Tbh it's kind of a complex balance issue to address. I mean you don't want to nerf Moa for Mes/Mir/Vir, but how do you nerf Chrono without touching Moa at this point? Remove its distortion? Nerf Magic Bullet like others have said? Couldn't tell ya. All I'm saying is it is too strong right now.

Alternatively, Arenanet could do the one thing that really needs to happen, and just make it so in ATs there can only be one of each class. And I don't mean 1x Ele and 1x Tempest and 1x Catalyst. No, I mean you get 1 Ele, 1 War, 1 Guard, 1 Thief, and 1 Mesmer. This would actually be the STRONGEST method to balance this game that they could do. This way, even if a class is Godly-OP, you can only have 1 of them and there is still always reason to play with 4 other classes. <- This is the best route imo. It just needs to happen. Worry about fine class tuning afterwards. I mean even streams would be more fun to watch when there was more forced class diversity.

The people in here who are trying to defend this, are full of it.

I love this solution for the most part.  FFXIV does this but labeled (tank dps dps healer).   However, it does make que times ridiculous at times when you can't find a healer.  But I think something like this could be beneficial with the game currently as it is.

However, I personally want this game to change in a big way, to allow theory builds to thrive more.  I enjoy playing a game where anyone can do almost anything, and the builds are near endless.  Or at the very least, truly customizable (while remaining viable - great).    Which it sounds like they intend on doing that, although I have doubts it'll be that drastic.  

If they do something like that though, and balance things well, it'll solve all these problems IMO.  Moa is just one of plenty of issues in this game.

 

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 5/26/2023 at 3:07 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The people in here who are trying to defend this, are full of it.

They are low ranked players. If you burst some noobs on side node who don't stun break anyway what difference does Moa make? If you moa in a TF and nobody focuses the helpless bird just "dodge bro" and "run away" may be viable counter play.

On 5/26/2023 at 3:07 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's not that Moa changed

It actually did change a year ago; CD from 180->90. Moa was always a OP skill in a Vacuum. The opportunity cost kept it in check.  With Mesmer being rather weak the last year it is quite possible that this change flew under the radar or the opportunity cost of moa was still to high. If you are overall weak, but OP on a 90 second CD, you are still overall weak.

Deleting your opponents utility bar -> 2 second stun is always strong. With Chrono being strong, recent pistol buffs and Chrono using moa more often, the Math of the opportunity Cost of this combo just changed by a lot.

12 hours ago, Fenris.8563 said:

but how do you nerf Chrono without touching Moa at this point?

I don't think you can do that in an elegant way. Chrono not resetting Elites seems to be the only way. IMO you should touch moa. Chronos only crime is being strong and changing the CD of Moa. If that is all it takes moa may be the problem. You could revert the buff from last year so CD is so high it not worth taking. You could leave the utility bar in bird form so counter play can happen. You can make the bird CC immune. You can give the bird a stunbreak ability to avoid death combos.

[apharma.3741]

28 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

It actually did change a year ago; CD from 180->90. Moa was always a OP skill in a Vacuum. The opportunity cost kept it in check.  With Mesmer being rather weak the last year it is quite possible that this change flew under the radar or the opportunity cost of moa was still to high. If you are overall weak, but OP on a 90 second CD, you are still overall weak.

Deleting your opponents utility bar -> 2 second stun is always strong. With Chrono being strong, recent pistol buffs and Chrono using moa more often, the Math of the opportunity Cost of this combo just changed by a lot.

This isn't the whole story or entirely correct. Moa used to last 10s, could be cast facing away from your target (common tactic was to blink behind them as you cast to hide the cast) and the signet icon didn't appear over the mesmer. Before Chrono and the nerfs, core mesmer would use it, but after chrono and then the nerf to duration, needing to be facing and then the signet animation it was used only on chrono because only chrono could use continuum split to reduce the cool down of moa to be viable.

In other words it's been on a ~90s-100s cool down with chrono for a long time, the difference is that now chrono can double cast moa and ALWAYS have moa ready for the next continuum split, while before you wouldn't have moa ready for the next continuum split if you double cast it.

43 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

I don't think you can do that in an elegant way. Chrono not resetting Elites seems to be the only way. IMO you should touch moa. Chronos only crime is being strong and changing the CD of Moa. If that is all it takes moa may be the problem. You could revert the buff from last year so CD is so high it not worth taking. You could leave the utility bar in bird form so counter play can happen. You can make the bird CC immune. You can give the bird a stunbreak ability to avoid death combos.

The problem isn't exclusive to moa or elites, though. Double gravity well is every bit as unfun as double moa, the only difference is if you have 2-3 stunbreaks ready or perma stab you're less likely to have a problem. However do we want a game state where you have to run from a chrono fight if you don't have 2 stunbreaks off cool down or perma stab? The latter doesn't sound fun to anyone.
The problem is more pronounced with elites as elites tend to be the most powerful skills balanced by cool down which CS circumvents, and they work well with CS. Other skills can be every bit as annoying to use twice in a row, imagine a support build using illusion of life twice, effectively nullifying any advantage to downing enemies in a team fight? Fortunately most mesmer utilities either don't work very well with CS or they're so weak it really doesn't matter....but the risk is always there with an ill-thought out buff.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

What if we turned opponent into a smokescale?

[semak.7481]

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

They are low ranked players.

Every forum poster is giga chad pro rank1 100 times, 200 times mAT winner, you for sure, knows the better. /s

Recent and mAT before that, went with gwell/tw, kitten low ranked mesmers dont know how to play the mesmer ! /s

2 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Deleting your opponents utility bar -> 2 second stun is always strong. With Chrono being strong, recent pistol buffs and Chrono using moa more often, the Math of the opportunity Cost of this combo just changed by a lot.

Is that NA thing? Havent seen a single one at mAT

2 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

You can make the bird CC immune. You can give the bird a stunbreak ability to avoid death combos.

So, every elite skill should give your opponent a free safety net to avoid being killed? Like, when warrior uses rampage everyone in 1200 range gets both evades back and action button for 5 stab stacks for 15s ?

 

[SlayerXX.7138]

37 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

So, every elite skill should give your opponent a free safety net to avoid being killed? Like, when warrior uses rampage everyone in 1200 range gets both evades back and action button for 5 stab stacks for 15s ?

No. But every CC that also counters Stun break can die in a ditch. It's uncompetitive. 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

No. But every CC that also counters Stun break can die in a ditch. It's uncompetitive. 

No

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:44 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Eh, it is actually getting to be cheese with double Chrono comps machine gunning Moas left & right all match.

 

On 5/14/2023 at 11:54 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's not going down that way lately.

The better players who run double Chrono comps are performing a certain routine that absolutely locks you down once Moa hits and you instant die from the following burst with no way of stun breaking or dodging or using the #5 skill to evade. It's like instant full lockdown CC and you die.

This double Chrono moa comp stuff is actually becoming extremely toxic, extremely fast.

Tbh, in the case of Chrono, Sig Of Humility is on way too low of an ICD. There is a lot that needs to be fixed here. The dynamic being presented here is stupid and has no counterplay.

 

On 5/17/2023 at 7:56 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You don't need any more than 2, that's the thing.

Just 2 of them can machine gun insta death Moa combos like every 20s on a player.

At that point, clearly it is better to add +1 Support and a +1 Side Node, and then +1 w/e else you want to add.

 

On 5/17/2023 at 8:00 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Except in higher tiers this is not what happens.

In higher tiers they stealth gank in at you and have someone land unblockable boon rips on you so you won't have stability, and when you get hit with Moa they instant CC lock you before you can push any buttons at all, and you die.

Ultimately what happens is Moa is allowing coordinated teams to perpetually benefit 5v4 the entire match, where there actually isn't counterplay for their chosen target. These Moa tactics lately are on par with straight making someone DC for the 5v4.

Whatever/However they want to nerf it, this build archetype just needs to go.

 

On 5/26/2023 at 3:07 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The complaints about this shouldn't be downplayed. This is extremely abusive when 2 or 3 of them are stacked on a team. People who think this is "easy to avoid, easy to use bird evade" clearly have not recently gone into ATs to fight good players who have figured out how to abuse Chrono comps. It's not even that there isn't counterplay, it's that there is anti-counterplay. Keep in mind I'm saying this, a person with nearly 30,000 games played in GW2. I have titles like Champion Brawler. I've gone 11 years in this game and never once complained about Signet Of Humility, but recently, it really is a toxic problem.

You should have seen the AT I was in about 20 minutes ago, wish I would have recorded it for demo tbh.

The longer this goes on and the more people who are figuring out how to abuse the perfect no-escape bird into death combo, the more I'm thinking this is arguably as broken as Catalyst upon initial DT buff before nerfs. I'll honestly be surprised if Chrono doesn't see high representation in this coming MAT.

As far as: "where does the real problem lie?" I dunno. Moa isn't a problem on Mes/Mir/Vir. It's Chrono where it becomes a problem, due to Continuum Split. It's not that Moa changed, it's that parameters around Moa changed with Chrono buffs gradually over time, but it has somehow equated to Moa being the direct source of their ability to instantly delete targets with anti-counterplay. Tbh it's kind of a complex balance issue to address. I mean you don't want to nerf Moa for Mes/Mir/Vir, but how do you nerf Chrono without touching Moa at this point? Remove its distortion? Nerf Magic Bullet like others have said? Couldn't tell ya. All I'm saying is it is too strong right now.

Alternatively, Arenanet could do the one thing that really needs to happen, and just make it so in ATs there can only be one of each class. And I don't mean 1x Ele and 1x Tempest and 1x Catalyst. No, I mean you get 1 Ele, 1 War, 1 Guard, 1 Thief, and 1 Mesmer. This would actually be the STRONGEST method to balance this game that they could do. This way, even if a class is Godly-OP, you can only have 1 of them and there is still always reason to play with 4 other classes. <- This is the best route imo. It just needs to happen. Worry about fine class tuning afterwards. I mean even streams would be more fun to watch when there was more forced class diversity.

The people in here who are trying to defend this, are full of it.

Now that the mAT has taken place, let us recap. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1830686375

Let us pay special attention to quotes like "People who think this is "easy to avoid, easy to use bird evade" clearly have not recently gone into ATs to fight good players who have figured out how to abuse Chrono comps" and "The longer this goes on and the more people who are figuring out how to abuse the perfect no-escape bird into death combo, the more I'm thinking this is arguably as broken as Catalyst upon initial DT buff before nerfs. I'll honestly be surprised if Chrono doesn't see high representation in this coming MAT.

Did Trevor's prediction that power chrono with moa (perhaps even two of them) would be well represented and perform well come true? Does his statement that power chrono with moa might be stronger than pre-nerf catalyst seem true, with the recent mAT in mind?

No. Instead we say Chronomancers mostly playing condi with gravity well, and when they did play power, they also played gravity well. Power chrono with moa is not even nearly considered meta, let alone overpowered, in competitive. The winning team on EU did not use chrono at all.

Let us also look at Trevor's suggestion that "Alternatively, Arenanet could do the one thing that really needs to happen, and just make it so in ATs there can only be one of each class."

As we can see, this wasn't relevant in the mAT at all and wouldn't have fixed anything (which makes sense, because double chrono is not actually a real problem).

Here we have a clip from Drazeh's stream 2 days ago: https://clips.twitch.tv/OddSingleCodDxCat--RsdNIFQfNF4kzvi

Q: "Do you think power chrono is good enough for competitive"

A: "I mean, it's good enough to be played. Is it good enough to win? I wouldn't say so, no". "It's just too squishy, it's too easy to shut down, if you focus it, it can't do damage"

Here we have a clip from Naru's stream 2 days ago: https://clips.twitch.tv/CalmAltruisticPicklesNotATK-p52nLKN4TRW197us

"Yeah you never play Moa in competitive, Moa is like a ranked meme for sniping people if you just trying to be annoying"

Bonus clip: https://clips.twitch.tv/AntsyStrongCarrotFutureMan-TgyVoIkoPaZbxTKt

_________________

The worst part is that nobody, including Trevor, will admit that they were/are wrong, or acknowledge the possibility that they themselves might be the problem even after this post.

Edited May 29, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741