What Lies Within Discussion: Do We Feel Appreciated Now? [Merged]

[Ashantara.8731]

2 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

They had no choice. If they lost their Champion and control over that ley nexus, they were doomed anyway. Checkmate. Game Over.

Whoever won the little Aurene magic ball was going to destroy the other, so they fought over it right then and there. Since their power was equal, they destroyed each other simultaneously instead of one overpowering the other.

It was a rushed ending, of course, but at no point was it out of character for Jormag to do what they did.

Okay, you actually gave me something to think about. Perhaps it was indeed just the rushed ending that left me with such disappointment with how the Elder Dragons were reduced to mere plot devices in the finale. I admit, had it been orchestrated at a different pace, in a more dramatic and plausible way, it might have been an epic fight instead of a circus.

[Randulf.7614]

17 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Okay, you actually gave me something to think about. Perhaps it was indeed just the rushed ending that left me with such disappointment with how the Elder Dragons were reduced to mere plot devices in the finale. I admit, had it been orchestrated at a different pace, in a more dramatic and plausible way, it might have been an epic fight instead of a circus.

I just finished replaying IBS and whilst i do understand completely why you feel this way, it does actually hold together in spite of the structure. The issue is partly down to Jormag talking for the most part about an existential threat on the horizon. Whilst Primordus fit that, the implication felt like it could be something new and different.
 

The main issue though is just how rushed it was. Primordus rises and becomes a threat which due to absorbing Kralks crystal resonance ability, means exponential power growth is extremely sudden compared to the pacing of the rest of IBS. It is that sudden change of pacing and being told exclusively through a long, unengaging chain of DRMs which causes things to jar horribly. The dialogue in Champions and between Aurene/Jormag tries to do the heavy lifting and explains things, but it can’t offset the awful structure and change of pace. I’ll give the writers credit for trying to work with that, but it’s a position that shouldn’t have happened. 
 

There are some minor inconsistencies. For example Jormag freezes villagers to quickly gain power to combat Primordus, and says they are only there until the war is over. But also says at a different point it will be in hundreds of years. Again, a result of rushed pacing.

Jormag and the Frost Legion felt like a long term story to explore, but because everything suddenly is so rushed it feels wrong and the battle at the end more a tick box exercise in clearing out two dragons. Rushed pacing aside, it does hold together in terms of explanations for everything.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

As for Jormag, however, I didn't have the impression that they wanted us to just join their cause but to actually do the dirty work for them. Why else would they have chosen a Champion to fight in their stead? At no point did I expect Jormag to show up and dive head-on into their inevitable demise. Yes, we cut off their Champions' bond to both dragons to lure them out, but I was thinking that Jormag was too smart to do what they did, basically killing themselves.

Jormag didn't pick Ryland to fight in his stead. That was never Ryalnd's purpose. Ryland ends up doing that because Braham goes off and forcibly makes himself Primordus' champion, but that was AFTER Ryland had already become Jormag's Champion, and not something Jormag could've foreseen.

Jormag made a Champion after Ryland because it was imitating what Aurene had done, as Aurene having a Champion(The Commander) allowed her to become far more powerful then the other Elder Dragons, and Jormag was looking for ways to get power. Having Ryland as a Champion allowed Jormag to recruit a big army between the end of Jormag Rising and the beginning of Champions, and gave it a public figure which it could use to interact with the other races in a more direct manner. Like how Ryland and Jormag used the Asura's hatred of Primordus to get them to fork over the data.

And as Living World Season 3 clearly stated, Jormag and Primordus are each other's weaknesses. There was no way for the battle to end EXCEPT them directly confronting each other. Jormag was trying to get more power so, when that time came, it could defeat Primordus, while not dying itself. Jormag only loses in Dragonstorm because we, the player, help even the power level between them. Going into Dragonstorm Jormag had more power, and would've survived the direct battle between the two. As Aurene states/as what happens if you fail Dragonstorm.

18 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

There are some minor inconsistencies. For example Jormag freezes villagers to quickly gain power to combat Primordus, and says they are only there until the war is over. But also says at a different point it will be in hundreds of years. Again, a result of rushed pacing.

I don't recall Jormag ever saying they would thaw immediately after the war is over. All Jormag/Ryland  say is

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_(lore)

Quote

Logan Thackeray: Jormag's forces keep trying to herd people, not kill them outright.

<Character name>: Herd them? For what?

Crecia Stoneglow: Freezing. The Svanir shamans work some sort of spell—doesn't take long, but it seems to have a limited reach. [...]

Ryland Steelcatcher: Destroyers can't burn Jormag's Frozen. This is how we destroy Primordus. Get your priorities in order.

Crecia Stoneglow: What's wrong with you? These aren't fighters, they're farmers. You're cutting down innocent people!

Ryland Steelcatcher: They're not dead. One day, long after you've lived and died, they'll thaw. And I'll be there to lead them.

Ryland Steelcatcher: Until then, their sacrifice will help unchain Jormag. Welcome to the new world.

Quote

Aurene: You're dooming those mortals to centuries of—darkness, limbo, who knows what?

Jormag: I confess I do not.

Aurene: That's the point. For all you know, they're in pain. Tortured.

Jormag: Their lives are preserved. When they thaw, they'll be in exactly the same condition they were when frozen.

Aurene: Physically, maybe. But mentally? Emotionally? You don't know, you don't care. You need to care.

Jormag: My dear, I do care. Of course I care. But you've left me no option.

Likewise the Spirits of the Wild, and the commander, make the same statements

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_(lore)

Quote

Wolf: The cries of the Frozen echo in our minds already. Can you stand listening to their agony for seasons? For centuries?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jormag's_World

Quote

<Character name>: It was horrific. Whole villages of innocent people—just frozen, midstep. For hundreds of years to come.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Imba.9451]

18 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

And these reasons are...?

Since you really want to press the issue (and in another thread that is): You simply ignore the arguments brought forward in that reddit threat, and simply don't aknowledge them. Wich I already said. But, as I also said, it is not my job to quote them here, only for you to declare them "not well put".

Calling Bobby "benevolent" and arguing with the communities issues with the release does, indeed, show a bias, simply for the fact that you can not know that Bobby did post this out of "benevolence". This is an emotional assumption you put in there, wich you are free to do of course, but does not entitle you of declaring him "correct" though.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Imba.9451

[mandala.8507]

5 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Since you really want to press the issue: You simply ignore the arguments brought forward in that reddit threat, and simply don't aknowledge them. Wich I already said. But, as I also said, it is not my job to quote them here, only for you to declare them "not well put".

Calling Bobby "benevolent" and arguing with the communities issues with the release does, indeed, show a bias, simply for the fact that you can not know that Bobby did post this out of "benevolence". This is an emotional assumption you put in there, wich you are free to do of course, but does not entitle you of declaring him "correct" though.

But I didn't ignore them. I read the reddit comments and found pretty much all of them to be lackluster, low-level analyses of the dialogue and intended sentiments to be gleaned from the story in this particular moment with Chul-Moo.

If you disagree, that's okay. It is okay for you not to agree with me. I am fine with that.

You are correct that I can't know what Bobby was thinking while responding to these comments, but in my experience, Arenanet developers don't go out of their way to engage players and offer clarifications with malicious intent. And, from reading his responses, it was clear (to me) he was not being malicious.

You can give me the copout line that I'm being "emotional" because I'm not agreeing with you, but it isn't the truth. You are the one making assumptions. I am simply offering my interpretation of the exchanges I read in that thread, which is that Bobby offered valuable clarifications to players as well as demonstrated a willingness to address any gripes they had with specific lines or interactions from that story beat, but no one took him up on revisiting the content to give him specifics and simply continued reiterating their same ambiguous complaints.

If I'm biased for not lowering my analytical standards and not pretending that I don't think the vast majority of these comments lacked the telltale signs of respectable engagement with the source material, then so be it.

[Imba.9451]

19 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

But I didn't ignore them. I read the reddit comments and found pretty much all of them to be lackluster, low-level analyses of the dialogue and intended sentiments to be gleaned from the story in this particular moment with Chul-Moo.

Honestly, I do believe you. I believe that you read them. Based on your behaviour so far, I do assume that you declare everything that does not fall in line with your or Bobbys point of view as "not well constructed". Because to me, there are quite a few comments in that thread, that disagree with Bobby in a respectful manner.

Handwaving those away is, once again, intelectually dishonest.

19 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

If you disagree, that's okay. It is okay for you not to agree with me. I am fine with that.

You clearly are not. You created this thread and continue to confront people for their differing opinions in a condescending and at times downright vicious way.

19 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

You are correct that I can't know what Bobby was thinking while responding to these comments, but in my experience, Arenanet developers don't go out of their way to engage players and offer clarifications with malicious intent. And, from reading his responses, it was clear (to me) he was not being malicious.

May I remind you of Jessica Price?

Also, this whole ordeal is not a binary black and white thing or benevolent or malicious. Because after all, everyone is just human. And everyone takes pride in what they create. Getting attacked (or feeling attacked) over this, can cause the need to defend themselves, to explain themselves, and do take out the credit of any claims against what they have created.

Thats normal. Thats natural. And I do also not believe that Bobby is acting with malicious intend. Considering he does ignore many of the things brought up and goes along with accusations against those, that dislike the release, it certainly does not feel like those comments come from a "benevolent" reason to engage with the community, truly being interested in exchange. Else, this could and should have been written different.

19 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

You can give me the copout line that I'm being "emotional" because I'm not agreeing with you, but it isn't the truth. You are the one making assumptions. I am simply offering my interpretation of the exchanges I read in that thread, which is that Bobby offered valuable clarifications to players as well as demonstrated a willingness to address any gripes they had with specific lines or interactions from that story beat, but no one took him up on revisiting the content to give him specifics and simply continued reiterating their same ambiguous complaints.

Again, Bobby ignored alot of points brought up, and generally only answered to very short posts, instead of the longer ones, that elaborated on the issue.

And making the assumption of benevolence is quite charged with an emotional groundwork. Especially given the context of this thread.

19 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

If I'm biased for not lowering my analytical standards and not pretending that I don't think the vast majority of these comments lacked the telltale signs of respectable engagement with the source material, then so be it.

Thats quite a large shift of the goalpost here, as that is obviously not what I wrote and something you make up entirely, while also showing off that condescending attitude (again) towards everyone who disagrees with you by implying that they have "lower standards" than you. You are biased for disregarding everything that goes against your opinion and for making up the assumption of benevolence about someone that agrees with you. The lack of critical engagement is pretty much the definition of bias in this regard.

[mandala.8507]

5 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

36 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

But I didn't ignore them. I read the reddit comments and found pretty much all of them to be lackluster, low-level analyses of the dialogue and intended sentiments to be gleaned from the story in this particular moment with Chul-Moo.

Honestly, I do believe you. I believe that you read them. Based on your behaviour so far, I do assume that you declare everything that does not fall in line with your or Bobbys point of view as "not well constructed". Because to me, there are quite a few comments in that thread, that disagree with Bobby in a respectful manner.

A bold assumption.

And I never said everyone was being disrespectful (some people were, but welcome to reddit). I said they weren't demonstrating a respectable level of engagement with the source material. I think their contentions are easily refuted by simply rereading the dialogue from the release or by replaying the other parts of the Gw2 story that were referenced in the release.

I'll correct your assumption: I'm not declaring everything that does not fall in line with my point of view as "not well constructed", I'm recognizing comments that are poorly thought out and lacking critical insight and identifying them as such. I don't have to agree with the criticisms in that thread for this to be true, although you seem to believe that to be the case. I just don't have the time or energy to go fight with 100 different redditors about why their criticisms don't have a solid foundation.

12 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

44 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

If you disagree, that's okay. It is okay for you not to agree with me. I am fine with that.

You clearly are not. You created this thread and continue to confront people for their differing opinions in a condescending and at times downright vicious way.

I push back against opinions rooted in misreadings of the source material. That doesn't mean I'm not okay with people disagreeing with me. I don't think it's condescending to ask people to support their beliefs with evidence from the game.

I apologize if I come across as "downright vicious" to you for doing so.

18 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Also, this whole ordeal is not a binary black and white thing or benevolent or malicious. Because after all, everyone is just human. And everyone takes pride in what they create. Getting attacked (or feeling attacked) over this, can cause the need to defend themselves, to explain themselves, and do take out the credit of any claims against what they have created.

Thats normal. Thats natural. And I do also not believe that Bobby is acting with malicious intend. Considering he does ignore many of the things brought up and goes along with accusations against those, that dislike the release, it certainly does not feel like those comments come from a "benevolent" reason to engage with the community, truly being interested in exchange. Else, this could and should have been written different.

Can I expect to read this Bobby Stein fan fiction in novel form anytime soon?

You're literally accusing a senior developer of being blind to people's great opinions, which is...😬

In such a patronizing tone, too.

26 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

57 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

You can give me the copout line that I'm being "emotional" because I'm not agreeing with you, but it isn't the truth. You are the one making assumptions. I am simply offering my interpretation of the exchanges I read in that thread, which is that Bobby offered valuable clarifications to players as well as demonstrated a willingness to address any gripes they had with specific lines or interactions from that story beat, but no one took him up on revisiting the content to give him specifics and simply continued reiterating their same ambiguous complaints.

Again, Bobby ignored alot of points brought up, and generally only answered to very short posts, instead of the longer ones, that elaborated on the issue.

Yeah, people tend to only respond to those who are voicing criticisms they feel they desire to understand better when they want to be in a productive dialogue; as opposed to catching stray insults from people who just want to complain.

I don't feel he's obligated to respond to everyone, and individuals believing their opinions are great doesn't mean they actually are. He's not automatically guilty of ignoring good points because he didn't respond to these individuals who feel that way about their own opinions.

42 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

If I'm biased for not lowering my analytical standards and not pretending that I don't think the vast majority of these comments lacked the telltale signs of respectable engagement with the source material, then so be it.

Thats quite a large shift of the goalpost here, as that is obviously not what I wrote and something you make up entirely, while also showing off that condescending attitude (again) towards everyone who disagrees with you by implying that they have "lower standards" than you. You are biased for disregarding everything that goes against your opinion and for making up the assumption of benevolence about someone that agrees with you. The lack of critical engagement is pretty much the definition of bias in this regard.

I simply lack the desire to spend dozens of hours of my time listing out all the reasons why people don't have a very informed opinion. Again, if that makes you feel like I'm biased, condescending, emotional, intellectually dishonest, or lacking critical engagement; then so be it. I won't try to convince you that you don't feel like those things are true because I don't think the vast majority of opinions in that subreddit thread are well-put or well-founded.

My apologies.