Thoughts, theories across many different topics

[Raffrey.5271]

The point of interest Fang of the Serpent inside the Great Lodge, is a tooth/tusk/whatever broke off from Jormag. But why "serpent"? Serpents are limbless, or at least krait-like, with a humanoid upper body and a lower half that resembles a snake. Assuming the norn's impression is accurate (they named the PoI, after all), was Jormag actually a huge krait? But the Sons of Svanir's Jormag emblem indicates there were wings. Was one of them wrong, or was it a combination of both, which makes it a winged krait? Sounds very weird but also not really that weird, when you compare this to Mordremoth, which was basically a single strip of giant spaghetti. Or Primordus, a gigantic head or something.

Speaking of Primordus (and Jormag)...

In the Dragonstorm, both the antagonistic elder dragons concealed a huge part of their body behind... something. Like, were they "fully" there at all? Was Primordus on that battlefield "fully", with its whole body buried, and only the head extending out of the ground doing the fighting? Was Jormag "fully" there, just parts other than his head and arms hidden from sight, in the blizzard? Or did they open a big portal and stick their heads and arms through the portal, with a large part of their body left elsewhere, like in the Mists? After the explosion, did they just turn into magic flowing everywhere, or that, but with only their heads blown off? If Primordus was there with its whole body and turned into magic after the explosion, wouldn't its disappearance cause massive landscape changes? Was what we saw of Primordus, all it's got? i.e. just an enormous head? I prefer to believe it actually has a huge body, though. I mean, look at the concept art! Virtually a Godzilla much larger than an actual Godzilla.

The Priory has a piece of Zhaitan's tail kept in their storage. Mordremoth didn't disappear when he died. Though not very sure about Kralkatorrik, which we left the place almost immediately after the fight with its Heart, these should mean when elder dragons die, although their magic would be released, that wouldn't necessarily make their body disappear completely. So Primordus and Jormag should still have part of their body intact and unaffected by the explosion, which happened at the point of collision, i.e. their heads. But Soo-Won evaporated into nothingness right before us! Intriguing...

 

... Just let my thoughts fly!

Edited June 8, 2023 by Raffrey.5271

[Kalavier.1097]

On 5/27/2023 at 10:48 AM, Raffrey.5271 said:

The point of interest Fang of the Serpent inside the Great Lodge, is a tooth/tusk/whatever broke off from Jormag. But why "serpent"? Serpents are limbless, or at least krait-like, with a humanoid upper body and a lower half that resembles a snake. Assuming the norn's impression is accurate (they named the PoI, after all), was Jormag actually a huge krait? But the Sons of Svanir's Jormag emblem indicates there were wings. Was one of them wrong, or was it a combination of both, which makes it a winged krait? Sounds very weird but also not really that weird, when you compare this to Mordremoth, which was basically a single strip of giant spaghetti. Or Primordus, a gigantic head or something.

Look at the totems to Jormag, they are all Serpent-like with no wings. The Emblem is just stylized, and can be taken as looking at claws of jormag vs Jormag itself.

On 5/27/2023 at 10:48 AM, Raffrey.5271 said:

Speaking of Primordus (and Jormag)...

In the Dragonstorm, both the antagonistic elder dragons concealed a huge part of their body behind... something. Like, were they "fully" there at all? Was Primordus on that battlefield "fully", with its whole body buried, and only the head extending out of the ground doing the fighting? Was Jormag "fully" there, just parts other than his head and arms hidden from sight, in the blizzard? Or did they open a big portal and stick their heads and arms through the portal, with a large part of their body left elsewhere, like in the Mists? After the explosion, did they just turn into magic flowing everywhere, or that, but with only their heads blown off? If Primordus was there with its whole body and turned into magic after the explosion, wouldn't its disappearance cause massive landscape changes? Was what we saw of Primordus, all it's got? i.e. just an enormous head? I prefer to believe it actually has a huge body, though. I mean, look at the concept art! Virtually a Godzilla much larger than an actual Godzilla.

They were fully present, it's just that only part of them was directly visible to the troops. If you look at the model of Jormag it includes a long body and tail, though the full body wasn't finished besides in concept arts. Though I'll admit it's possible Jormag was using a portal like the icebrood to be partially there?

On 5/27/2023 at 10:48 AM, Raffrey.5271 said:

The Priory has a piece of Zhaitan's tail kept in their storage. Mordremoth didn't disappear when he died. Though not very sure about Kralkatorrik, which we left the place almost immediately after the fight with its Heart, these should mean when elder dragons die, although their magic would be released, that wouldn't necessarily make their body disappear completely. So Primordus and Jormag should still have part of their body intact and unaffected by the explosion, which happened at the point of collision, i.e. their heads. But Soo-Won evaporated into nothingness right before us! Intriguing...

Those dragons weren't also trying to channel all their power into overwhelming the other and being wiped out by an equal but opposite force. Though the battlefield below them is filled with ice, lava, and rock spikes scattered all over. If their bodies survived, it would've fallen over the cliff for Jormag, and sank into the lava for primordus and not perhaps been entirely visible. Though Jormag may have partially been in a portal like we see the icebrood forces using a lot of. 

The other three dragons died but released their magic after death, so I'd theorize it's part of HOW they died vs just dying.

Jormag and Primordus: Dumping everything into a giant blast to try to overpower the other and wiping each other out.

Soo-won, allowing herself to peacefully fade at a low-magic level, fading away.

Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, Mordremoth: physically overpowered and killed, their magic releasing afterwards leaving behind a corpse.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Very simple reason: real world nomenclature.

It's pretty common trope in mythologies, especially Nordic and Christianity, to reference dragons as being serpents. This is typically because both are reptilian and snakes are often viewed as a symbol of evil, while dragons fill the role of evil antagonist in such stories. You can also have winged serpents, such as Quetzalcoatl.

Additionally, Jormag is a reference in name to the Nordic world serpent, Jormungandr.

On 5/27/2023 at 10:48 AM, Raffrey.5271 said:

In the Dragonstorm, both the antagonistic elder dragons concealed a huge part of their body behind... something. Like, were they "fully" there at all? Was Primordus on that battlefield "fully", with its whole body buried, and only the head extending out of the ground doing the fighting? Was Jormag "fully" there, just parts other than his head and arms hidden from sight, in the blizzard?

Yes, they were fully present, but what we see isn't their full body.

It's a technical production limitation because the second half of IBS got gutted in favor of the whole studio working on End of Dragons. So while there were concept artwork done for Primordus' and Jormag's full models, and even a draft of Jormag's full model without details beyond the head and hands, they were never finished. Similar to Kralkatorrik being just a head during Path of Fire, A Star to Guide Us, and All or Nothing - they didn't have the time / budget to make a full model for Kralk until War Eternal, due to the company also working on two other game projects that was siphoning resources.

On 5/27/2023 at 10:48 AM, Raffrey.5271 said:

If Primordus was there with its whole body and turned into magic after the explosion, wouldn't its disappearance cause massive landscape changes?

I mean based on Season 3 lore, that event should have been like multiple nukes going off in one spot and completely decimate the entire landscape for miles to come. But "because plot" it didn't happen.

The entire ending for IBS and how things reacted to Jormag and Primordus is inconsistent with the entire rest of the game. Not only is it weird their corpses vanished, but according to Gorrik, their minions across the board died out. With all but the strongest destroyers becoming snuffed out, and all icebrood "thawing" and losing their ice, resulting in older icebrood just straight up dying since they were just ice and bones left.

Yet this very much did not happen with risen, mordrem, or branded. And the branded still being around was even a subplot of IBS's prologue.

In similar measure, until IBS: Champions, Elder Dragons never once gave a kitten about their champions. It's literally a point of their personality for how they don't care about their minions at all. And a champion's death doesn't affect the Elder Dragons. yet for some reason both Primordus and Jormag cared deeply enough about Braham and Ryland, and put their own magic into reviving them twice in this battle despite it weakening them directly. And throughout all of Champions, despite it being highlighted as if Braham and Ryland were their only champions, we spent every DRM killing a dragon champion of either of the two Elder Dragons.

It's just... very weird writing. Would make a bit more sense if you replace all the references to "dragon champion" with "herald" since heralds (Drakkar, Great Destroyer, Glint, and possibly Commander, Ryland, and psuedo-so Braham too) held a more unique role, but only for when the Elder Dragon is sleeping.

There is no explanation given for why this is so remarkably different a scenario, and I don't expect we will ever get one. Not beyond "because production limitations left issues."

Edited May 29, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

8 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I mean based on Season 3 lore, that event should have been like multiple nukes going off in one spot and completely decimate the entire landscape for miles to come. But "because plot" it didn't happen.

The entire ending for IBS and how things reacted to Jormag and Primordus is inconsistent with the entire rest of the game. Not only is it weird their corpses vanished, but according to Gorrik, their minions across the board died out. With all but the strongest destroyers becoming snuffed out, and all icebrood "thawing" and losing their ice, resulting in older icebrood just straight up dying since they were just ice and bones left.

Yet this very much did not happen with risen, mordrem, or branded. And the branded still being around was even a subplot of IBS's prologue.

In similar measure, until IBS: Champions, Elder Dragons never once gave a kitten about their champions. It's literally a point of their personality for how they don't care about their minions at all. And a champion's death doesn't affect the Elder Dragons. yet for some reason both Primordus and Jormag cared deeply enough about Braham and Ryland, and put their own magic into reviving them twice in this battle despite it weakening them directly. And throughout all of Champions, despite it being highlighted as if Braham and Ryland were their only champions, we spent every DRM killing a dragon champion of either of the two Elder Dragons.

It's just... very weird writing. Would make a bit more sense if you replace all the references to "dragon champion" with "herald" since heralds (Drakkar, Great Destroyer, Glint, and possibly Commander, Ryland, and psuedo-so Braham too) held a more unique role, but only for when the Elder Dragon is sleeping.

There is no explanation given for why this is so remarkably different a scenario, and I don't expect we will ever get one. Not beyond "because production limitations left issues."

Well this is just patently untrue

• Primordus and Jormag annihilated each other in what amounts to basically a matter/antimatter explosion. Unlike the other Elder dragons who just got lasered/stabbed to death. The manner in which Jormag and Primordus died is fundamentally different then the other 4 dragons.
• Primordus' minions were all artificially made with his magic. Unlike other Elder Dragons, Primordus didn't care about corrupting living things. All of his minions were JUST animated rock/fire. Without Primordus around to keep powering them, they have no biology to fall back on to keep living.
• Similarly, most of Jormag's most powerful minions were basically nothing but animated ice blocks, even if they had biology to start with. With Jormag's death theres nothing to keep the ice blocks powered, and thier biology isn't able to do it by itself.
• Icebrood Saga also makes a point that Ryland/Braham aren't normal champions. They're champions like The Commander and Caithe. Both of which have given Aurene a significant advantage over the other Elder Dragons for the power they provide. Unlike other champions like Drakkar, which are just mind controlled thralls with no real free will, Braham, Ryland, and Caithe, are not corrupted, they're connected as Caithe points out back in LWS4 when she gets crystalized. They're treated differently because they are fundamentally different as stated back in LWS4.

There's plenty of explanation for why things are different, and many people other than myself have pointed this out before. You just chose to ignore it seemingly because you want the story to have issues, rather than because it actually has issues.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

On 5/27/2023 at 9:48 AM, Raffrey.5271 said:

The point of interest Fang of the Serpent inside the Great Lodge, is a tooth/tusk/whatever broke off from Jormag. But why "serpent"? Serpents are limbless, or at least krait-like, with a humanoid upper body and a lower half that resembles a snake. Assuming the norn's impression is accurate (they named the PoI, after all), was Jormag actually a huge krait? But the Sons of Svanir's Jormag emblem indicates there were wings. Was one of them wrong, or was it a combination of both, which makes it a winged krait? Sounds very weird but also not really that weird, when you compare this to Mordremoth, which was basically a single strip of giant spaghetti. Or Primordus, a gigantic head or something.

Speaking of Primordus (and Jormag)...

In the Dragonstorm, both the antagonistic elder dragons concealed a huge part of their body behind... something. Like, were they "fully" there at all? Was Primordus on that battlefield "fully", with its whole body buried, and only the head extending out of the ground doing the fighting? Was Jormag "fully" there, just parts other than his head and arms hidden from sight, in the blizzard? Or did they open a big portal and stick their heads and arms through the portal, with a large part of their body left elsewhere, like in the Mists? After the explosion, did they just turn into magic flowing everywhere, or that, but with only their heads blown off? If Primordus was there with its whole body and turned into magic after the explosion, wouldn't its disappearance cause massive landscape changes? Was what we saw of Primordus, all it's got? i.e. just an enormous head? I prefer to believe it actually has a huge body, though. I mean, look at the concept art! Virtually a Godzilla much larger than an actual Godzilla.

The Priory has a piece of Zhaitan's tail kept in their storage. Mordremoth didn't disappear when he died. Though not very sure about Kralkatorrik, which we left the place almost immediately after the fight with its Heart, these should mean when elder dragons die, although their magic would be released, that wouldn't necessarily make their body disappear completely. So Primordus and Jormag should still have part of their body intact and unaffected by the explosion, which happened at the point of collision, i.e. their heads. But Soo-Won evaporated into nothingness right before us! Intriguing...

 

... Just let my thoughts fly!

Calling/associating dragons as "snakes with wings" goes back centuries. Likewise, the Svanir totems of Jormag show Jormag as a snake. Its just visual syalization.

Jormag and Primordus vanished because they annihilated each other in what amounts to a matter/anti-matter explosion. Two completely opposite powers met and cancelled each other out.

[Kalavier.1097]

39 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jormag and Primordus vanished because they annihilated each other in what amounts to a matter/anti-matter explosion. Two completely opposite powers met and cancelled each other out.

And we reduced them to being perfectly equal, vs lopsided strength wise or super powerful.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

50 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And we reduced them to being perfectly equal, vs lopsided strength wise or super powerful.

Yep, them needing to be at equal power was a big point of Champions and Dragonstorm. If one had been more powerful then the other when they clashed the more powerful entity would've survived.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

20 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well this is just patently untrue

• Primordus' minions were all artificially made with his magic. Unlike other Elder Dragons, Primordus didn't care about corrupting living things. All of his minions were JUST animated rock/fire. Without Primordus around to keep powering them, they have no biology to fall back on to keep living.
• Similarly, most of Jormag's most powerful minions were basically nothing but animated ice blocks, even if they had biology to start with. With Jormag's death theres nothing to keep the ice blocks powered, and thier biology isn't able to do it by itself.

Well this is just patently untrue.

• While Primordus minions were mostly artificially made with his magic, the same can be said for mordrem and many branded, especially branded elementals which are present in Grothmar Valley. They are still around without Kralkatorrik to keep powering them, because dragon minions are not requiring constant sources of power.
• Similarly, while most of Jormag's most powerful minions are basically nothing but animated ice blocks now, there is no need for Jormag to "keep the ice blocks powered", just as there was no need for Zhaitan to keep risen powered so they don't decay to the point of immobility like what happens to Awakened. In fact, we see risen animated from corpses well over 1,000 years old (Mazdak), which would have been nothing but bones by that point in time (unless Orrians practiced mummification, which there is no evidence for). Additionally, even branded are mostly crystal, with little biology to fall back on, as their insides are literally crystallized until there is nothing but crystal, bone, and gray, dying skin.

It's hilarious how your claims of why Primordus' and Jormag's minions evaporate upon the Elder Dragons' deaths can be applied perfectly to both Zhaitan's and Kralkatorrik's minions in equal measure, yet they very much didn't.

Basic things you seem to misunderstand:

• The Elder Dragons do not feed power into their minions. Minions feed on magic to empower their dragon. This is a critical plot point in the asura chapter 3 storyline and is seen directly with destroyers and risen.
• All dragon minions, sans Mordrem, lose their biological functions. This is why dragon minions cannot reproduce, and are physically transformed into the element of their dragon. Even if what's corrupted should be just bones (again, Mazdak), we get full fledged mobile bodies. And even if these bodies are rotten, they remain preserved with the same magic that corrupted them to maintain that state, unlike similar non-dragon minion entities (e.g., risen vs Awakened).
• Not all destroyers were constructs (see: Stone Summit and, of course, Braham), and not all other minions were from pre-existing biological beings (see: The Shatterer, Branded Elementals, etc.).
• With all of the Elder Dragon's deaths, the minions lose anything they relied on from the dragon. For risen, mordrem, and branded this was the "hivemind" - the risen do not begin to decay, despite 10 years having passed, and mordrem don't become inanimate like normal plants that only feed off of sunlight and soil nutrients, and branded do not lose their crystal to become just bone and skin. For an unexplained reason - your speculation being "they relied on the Elder Dragon to maintain their form" (something that is unsupported, mind you) - icebrood and destroyers are not like this.

19 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And we reduced them to being perfectly equal, vs lopsided strength wise or super powerful.

This was so that they'd both die. Not so that their bodies would utterly vanish without a trace.

The notion of their bodies vanishing because they "annihilated each other in what amounts to matter/anti-matter" is speculative. A reasonable assumption, I'll admit.

But still speculation. Not confirmed.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Well this is just patently untrue

Well you seem to have massively misunderstood a lot of things.

1. The only branded we see in Grothmar are things that were organic before(like the Devourers) and things that already existed magically before(elements). Modern originate from living things, and then get cloned by Mordrmeoths pods. Neither of which are indicators of what happens when purely elemental things kept alive by the Dragon's magic(like the Destroyers) lose their master.
2. The fact Mazdak did have some skin would indicate that the Orrians practiced mummification, or at least some sort of magical body preserving. If they didn't he would just be bones. Also, undead exist outside of Zhaitan and don't need a constant source of magic to keep them alive due to the nature of undeath in GW. This is a false comparison fallacy.
3. Branded have enough biology to move and function DESPITE the crystals growing out of their skin. Showing that, despite your claims otherwise, they aren't just entirely crystal underneath.

More basic things you seem to misunderstand:

1. Dragons DO feed magic into their minions. This was stated quite a long time ago, the more magic the dragon pours into its minion, the more powerful/intelligent it becomes. Do it enough and that minion can manage lesser minions on its own. This is how many Champions are made. We even heard Taimi call out Ryland gorging on Jormag magic to make himself bigger/more powerful in Dragonstorm.
2. Stone Summit were not Destroyers, they weren't even Primordus' minions. They were Dwarves who tapped into Primordus' magic to try to escape the Great Dwarf ritual, and half succeeded. Dragon minions are under the control of their dragon, nothing shows that the Stone summit were under control of Primordus. Hence why they just stayed up in their fort all the time instead of fighting for their dragon.
3. Braham was likewise not a Destoryer. Just like Ryland wasn't an Icebrood. As mention by Caithe all the way back in Living world Season 4 which you constantly ignore for some reason, what she has with Aurene is connection, not corruption. This is why Aurene was able to brand Caithe despite her being a dragon minion when normally dragon minions can't be corrupted by other dragons. Ryland and Braham are the same sort of entities. They are connected, not corrupted.
4. Again, comparing to Risen, Mordrem, and Branded, is a false comparison fallacy since those are nowhere near the same sort of things as the Destroyers and high level Icebrood were. All of those were living things, or work under an entirely different kind of magic systems(undeath).

Edited May 30, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Randulf.7614]

It’s quite clear you two do not like each other and try very hard to find reasons to disagree. Rather than play the “who is the best lore master” maybe just ignore each other?Otherwise every thread just ends up with every sentence analysed to the micro detail in order to gain oneupmanship.

Or maybe just hug it out or something

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 5/30/2023 at 4:59 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well you seem to have massively misunderstood a lot of things.

Since I 'massively misunderstood' things you have literally zero evidence to support your claims, and state objectively and confirmed false claims, I'll dip out here.

On 5/30/2023 at 5:10 PM, Randulf.7614 said:

It’s quite clear you two do not like each other and try very hard to find reasons to disagree. Rather than play the “who is the best lore master” maybe just ignore each other?Otherwise every thread just ends up with every sentence analysed to the micro detail in order to gain oneupmanship.

Or maybe just hug it out or something

To be perfectly honest, I do have him on ignore. But I still get notifications he quoted me and that combined with seeing multiple "this post by xxx has been hidden" in a row right under mine really irks me because I know that he's actively insulting me and making bs claims with no support. As usual.

I honestly do not care if I'm a "lore master". Despite some people's beliefs, I never make that claim, never did, and quite frankly, tend to dislike when people call me that most of the time.

I just wait for the seemingly never coming day Sajuuk just stops trying to correct every single sentence I type, unprompted and unprovoked. Or for ANet to fix that part of the forums. So I can stop getting notified about it.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Since I 'massively misunderstood' things you have literally zero evidence to support your claims, and state objectively and confirmed false claims, I'll dip out here.

I have plenty of evidence to support my claims, and I've provided it in the past. You just ignore it.

Caithe, and the Champions like her(Ryland/Braham.Kuunavang) not being corrupted, and being different from Branded/Destroyers/Icebrood by being "bonded" rather than corrupted.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_champion#Bonded_champions

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Crystal_Blooms#Dialogue

Quote

Rytlock Brimstone: Wow...

Canach: Oh, good—another dragon that can corrupt sylvari.

<Character name>: Caithe, are you...YOU?

Caithe: Oh, I'm me. We were right—she DOES need both of us. Now I know what my role is. And it's...humbling.

Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—

Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wildfire_(story)#Dialogue

Quote

<Character name>: Braham! Where—did he survive?

Aurene: I believe he was able to bond with Primordus, yes. But I'm cut off from him now.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fallout#Dialogue

Quote

Kuunavang: I felt it when she woke. All those of the sea did—a presence powerful enough to drive back the shadows in the depths.

Kuunavang: But it was not until Zhaitan that I sought her out. An act of desperation to save what was left of a land I loved.

Kuunavang: It takes...effort for one like her to see you. We're but moments in her infinite life. I did not know if she would care.

Kuunavang: But she did. Somehow, she did. I became her champion.

Kuunavang: My bond with her is much like yours with Aurene. Or perhaps more like your friend Caithe's. I feel her, but she doesn't control me.

Kuunavang: She's come to mean a lot to me. It was...hard, when she chose to put herself in Joon's machine.

Kuunavang: But, even now, she's always taking the long view.

Champions like Ryland being given magic from their dragons

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonstorm#Dialogue

Quote

Ryland, Champion of Jormag: Nice of you to clear out the trash for me, Commander.

Taimi: Did you grow? You look like you grew. All that Jormag energy can't be good for you.

Dragons giving normal minions/champions more magic to make them more powerful/willful

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Sucks#Dialogue

Quote

Trahearne: These seem to be more powerful. They also hold a larger quantity of magic. More of Zhaitan's will, perhaps? [...]

Trahearne: Indeed, these creatures are acting with more self-will! Zhaitan's infused them with tremendous energy. See how the weapon affects them!

The only surviving branded we see in Grothmar, post Kralk's death, being either previously organic things like Devurers/grubs, or branded elements which already existed naturally in an uncorrupted state via magic

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Brand_Stomped#Walkthrough

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Broken_Brand_Stomper

Quote

There are two types of attacks on the stomper while you are repairing, but both involve exploding creatures which will stop the repair procedure. In the first type, Branded Devourers shoot exploding grubs towards the stomper.

Quote

during which time many Branded, including Branded Exploders and Branded Grubs, will spawn and attempt to disable them.

Many of Mordremoth's minions originally being living things, and then cloning them via pods.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329

Quote

Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Pod

Quote

Mordrem Pods are large incubation pod creations of the Mordrem that are part of Blighting Trees. Living beings are placed within these pods, allowing the Blighting Trees to create near-endless Mordrem copies of those individuals. Two, especially large ones, are used to imprison Logan Thackeray and Zojja.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blighting_Pod

Quote

Blighting Pods are gooey blisters, in which bodies of the dead are taken to allow Blighting Trees to create numerous copies in the form of Mordrem.

Destroyers being purely elemental creations of Primordus, and not corrupted things. As well as them all reading as Primordus since they are just artificially created/puppeted things.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160304181626/http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_Response_Mission:_Metrica_Province#Dialogue

Quote

Taimi: Incredible. The destroyers are all linked—their energy signatures read as Primordus whenever they attacked.

Taimi: I wonder if their connection to him strengthens when they burn...?

I could go on, but I'm sure it will all be casually ignored because its easier to ignore such things.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kalavier.1097]

TBH it's also important to note that post Kralk's death and Aurene's ascension, she's explicitly described as "Cleansing the brand" and hunting down branded. So those that survived did so because they were underground and Aurene didn't detect them, and tended to be weaker branded compared to champions or powerful types.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

TBH it's also important to note that post Kralk's death and Aurene's ascension, she's explicitly described as "Cleansing the brand" and hunting down branded. So those that survived did so because they were underground and Aurene didn't detect them, and tended to be weaker branded compared to champions or powerful types.

Ditto with the Risen.

Outside of Tequatl in Sparfly Fen, which appears to be where the biggest clump of Zhaitan magic that didn't go to the other Elder Dragons landed, the Unchained Risen we see throughout Siren's Landing, and even Cantha, tend to be of the weaker, generic, mob Risen.

More complex Risen like the mashed together Risen Abominations are basically absent outside of one event, and the most powerful remaining Risen seen in Sirens's Landing was a Unchained Wyvern.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Ditto with the Risen.

Outside of Tequatl in Sparfly Fen, which appears to be where the biggest clump of Zhaitan magic that didn't go to the other Elder Dragons landed, the Unchained Risen we see throughout Siren's Landing, and even Cantha, tend to be of the weaker, generic, mob Risen.

More complex Risen like the mashed together Risen Abominations are basically absent outside of one event, and the most powerful remaining Risen seen in Sirens's Landing was a Unchained Wyvern.

Powerful Risen like Tequatl tended to make themselves enough trouble they were destroyed because they actively went out and continued engaging.

[Raffrey.5271]

On 6/1/2023 at 2:12 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

snap

imo, Elder Dragons can control all unit under the influence of their magic. Be it corruption, connection, or bond. All these are very similar, with connection just one thing away from being corruption: whether the dominant disregarded the consent of the influenced.

Aurene respects consents, that we know of. Soo-Won as well. What I don't get is how Kuunavang retained herself when Soo-Won lose to the Void. Did her past experiences make her unique / resistant to mind attack in some way? Or was it Soo-Won, having predicted the possible outcome, cut off the connection beforehand?

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 5/27/2023 at 11:48 AM, Raffrey.5271 said:

The point of interest Fang of the Serpent inside the Great Lodge, is a tooth/tusk/whatever broke off from Jormag. But why "serpent"? Serpents are limbless, or at least krait-like, with a humanoid upper body and a lower half that resembles a snake.

in some mythologies dragons are seem as "serpents with wings",

ins't a thing too special to overthink about.

Edited June 6, 2023 by ugrakarma.9416

[Raffrey.5271]

A few other things I'd like to add (all below are according to my best knowledge; should be true, could be wrong):

• Elder dragons share their magic to minions, minions gather magic for their dragon, both is true. It's like a feedback loop. No matter how weak, or powerful an elder dragon intend their minions to be, it costs them dragon magic to corrupt stuffs. Of course, these costs may be nominal if they are only making some ordinary destroyer crab you can see everywhere. In return, these minions harvest magic for their dragon, much like how the risens gathered artifacts for Zhaitan's Mouth to consume. 
• I highly doubt if a dragon minion need constant magic supply from their dragon to keep functioning. If they are, elder dragons wouldn't mass produce their minions in a heart beat. It's such an inefficient way to use dragon magic. But I don't have anything to back this up. Just my thoughts.
• But I don't believe the devs gave it much thoughts when they decided what branded to deploy around Grothmar so... we can move on from this.
• "Connection", or "bonded" is essentially corruption in a not so awful way. It's only a matter of how much control an elder dragon would like to exercise upon its minions. Bangar was considered bonded, but Jormag can take over if he wishes. Braham was considered bonded, but think about it, if it wasn't Braham, just someone we don't know about, we likely wouldn't call such individual in such status a "bonded champion". Much like a "dragon champion".

That's it for now. Also, thank you all for pointing out the link between snake and dragon in ancient mythologies. I'm not very familiar with that.

Aaand, yeah. Konig and Sajuuk, please don't interact with each other's posts / comments again. Ever.

[Raffrey.5271]

Since the devs really want to move on from the dragons, I think I'll try to mention pre-EoD stuffs less, except Aurene (since she's still around and kicking) and Soo-Won (things about her still fairly recent). Also, I really wish Jormag and Primordus still has some part of body intact. So that the inquest, especially Kuda, can scavenge, make use of it, and succeed in making some real horror.

Anyway. On to the Void.

The Void is very weird. Soo-Won mentioned it was around from the very beginning when / before the world was born. There was a time when the Commander and Braham was displaced to somewhere in the outer space (seemingly). Fantasy fiction elements like elder dragons or magic systems aside, if Tyria is not some giant slab of land and sea glued to the back of some turtle(?), I'm going to assume its universe works very similar to ours.

I think one of the following could be true:

1. The Void is something like dark matter. Or something cosmic. And Soo-Won created a "Big Bang".
2. The space is very spacey, you know. What Soo-Won said could still be true if there was already a well established universe, and she was floating in the middle of nowhere. And she tumbled across a massive nebula, created a star system from it. The Void is that nebula and there was something malicious in it, which is what we are dealing with right now.

... I think I'm missing something.

Konig and Sajuuk, I still appreciate your input. But please try not to response to each other?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 6/7/2023 at 4:03 PM, Raffrey.5271 said:

• Elder dragons share their magic to minions, minions gather magic for their dragon, both is true. It's like a feedback loop. No matter how weak, or powerful an elder dragon intend their minions to be, it costs them dragon magic to corrupt stuffs. Of course, these costs may be nominal if they are only making some ordinary destroyer crab you can see everywhere. In return, these minions harvest magic for their dragon, much like how the risens gathered artifacts for Zhaitan's Mouth to consume. 

Yes, this is how it's been since Day 1.

Elder Dragons put a one time (as far as all evidence goes - with a few unique scenarios, namely champions needing power boosts) push of magic into creatures or elements to corrupt them. But the minions are perpetually finding magic to feed the dragon. It's been stated to be that way since, well, Eye of the North implied it during Raven's Point dungeon, but Edge of Destiny novel and the core story (namely Field Test and Test Subject) confirmed it.

The only time we ever see the Elder Dragon feeding magic to the minion after the singular point of corruption is Dragonstorm with Braham / Ryland, Koda's Bane during Honor of the Waves story mode, and the Commander during The Only One. There might be a few other handful of cases but I can't think of them atm. Zhaitan didn't even strengthen its Eyes and Mouths and they were vital for its strength and survival - which aligns well with Jeff Grubb's and other devs original statements that the Elder Dragons simply do not care about their minions - that it's like a case of "oh look the black ants and red ants are fighting" to them, to use one of Jeff Grubb's old examples.

On 6/7/2023 at 4:03 PM, Raffrey.5271 said:

• I highly doubt if a dragon minion need constant magic supply from their dragon to keep functioning. If they are, elder dragons wouldn't mass produce their minions in a heart beat. It's such an inefficient way to use dragon magic. But I don't have anything to back this up. Just my thoughts.

It is fundamentally impossible for the dragon minion to need a constant magic supply from their dragon to keep functioning. If this was true, then every single dragon minion would collapse upon the Elder Dragon's death because there'd be no more magic being supplied to them - but as seen with the risen, mordrem, sylvari, and branded... none did. Including dragon minions that were original creations, like Tequatl (unless Zhaitan had some dragon corpses lying around which is possible, but thus far unsupported) or... literally all sylvari and most mordrem, which aren't corrupted animals or pre-existing plants, but grown. And there is no evidence to suggest that destroyers or icebrood were any different in this regard. What caused their thawing/snuffing out was a different matter.

Best guess? A resonance feedback of some sort due to the mutual energy destruction, in a similar fashion to the Unstable Abomination's death method in Season 3. Of course this would imply that had Mordremoth and Zhaitan attacked each other at equal power levels, the same thing would have happened to them and all risen/mordrem as what happened to Jormag and Primordus and all icebrood and destroyers.

The issue is, of course, this is pure theory with flimsy, at best, support. There is no actual in-game dialogue that directly implies this to be the case. It's just the best logical guess to create out of the void of a near total lack of information.

On 6/7/2023 at 4:03 PM, Raffrey.5271 said:

• "Connection", or "bonded" is essentially corruption in a not so awful way. It's only a matter of how much control an elder dragon would like to exercise upon its minions. Bangar was considered bonded, but Jormag can take over if he wishes. Braham was considered bonded, but think about it, if it wasn't Braham, just someone we don't know about, we likely wouldn't call such individual in such status a "bonded champion". Much like a "dragon champion".

Agreed. By all evidence, bonded is just "corruption without the overriding of will". And presumably that's all that it takes for the Dream's defense mechanisms to not kick in and kill the related sylvari (assuming the defense mechanisms didn't vanish with Mordremoth's death - there's no implied reason for it).

Braham, imo, wasn't bonded. He was protected by the Spirits of the Wild which slowed the corruption process in a way that resembled being bonded.  It's less of a poh-tay-toh / poh-tah-toh situation and more of a leopard / cheetah situation. Got some similarities, but not the same thing under a different name (or pronunciation).

5 hours ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

Also, I really wish Jormag and Primordus still has some part of body intact. So that the inquest, especially Kuda, can scavenge, make use of it, and succeed in making some real horror.

Well, there's still Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and Kralkatorrik's corpses. Presumably - we don't actually get to see Kralk's corpse.

Soo-Won's for some reason just evaporates. Missed opportunity. Could have been some real juicy drama if the Inquest got Soo-Won's corpse and used it to create an undead cyborg Soo-Won under their control.

5 hours ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

The Void is very weird. Soo-Won mentioned it was around from the very beginning when / before the world was born. There was a time when the Commander and Braham was displaced to somewhere in the outer space (seemingly). Fantasy fiction elements like elder dragons or magic systems aside, if Tyria is not some giant slab of land and sea glued to the back of some turtle(?), I'm going to assume its universe works very similar to ours.

Ehhhh. No. Or rather, it's not fully defined.

What we do know is that the multiverse is formed from the Mists, and the Mists is this weird amalgamation of the concepts of outer space, the afterlife, and a perpetual big bang of sorts (constant creation via proto-matter). The Mists not only serve as where the afterlives are, but also passageways between worlds, and they can sometimes appear like islands floating in actual white-yellowish mists (e.g., Fractals hub or sPvP hub), or they can appear like islands floating in literal outer space (e.g., that rock Commander and Braham ends up in S4, Mistlock Observatory lounge, or even the Realm of Torment in GW1).

Considering this...

5 hours ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

I think one of the following could be true:

1. The Void is something like dark matter. Or something cosmic. And Soo-Won created a "Big Bang".
2. The space is very spacey, you know. What Soo-Won said could still be true if there was already a well established universe, and she was floating in the middle of nowhere. And she tumbled across a massive nebula, created a star system from it. The Void is that nebula and there was something malicious in it, which is what we are dealing with right now.

... I think I'm missing something.

The Void, to me - and this is half spitballing due to the obscene lack of lore about it - feels like it's basically a black hole of magic. Everything condensed into one singular point that it becomes indistinguishable, but unlike a black hole it isn't really "shaped" like anything and instead has snaking tendrils (which was no doubt done to reference The Movement of the World's lore about the DSD corrupting water into tendrils - which makes no actual sense but okay).

Soo-Won only created the planet Tyria. So I would see it less of "she created a big bang" and more of a Norse mythology styled "she crafted the world out of the remains of the Void". Similar to how Odin crafted Midgard out of the corpse of the great giant Ymir.

Though this does bring into question how the Tyrian solar system works, since it has an established sun and moon, and based on the two orreries, it has sibling planets. But then you also have cases of the Elder Dragons' rises creating stars somehow, stars being prophetic of Tyria's events, and even souls elevated to "live among the stars" and become Celestials.

All things considered, it seems very unlikely that Tyria's solar system functions at all relatively similar to a real solar system. It might at a glance, but upon inspection it really shouldn't given what we already know.

Returning to the Void matter, I think it would be more interesting if they tied it more intrinsically with the Mists, which is constantly creating from proto-matter, and depict the Void as a multiversal "recycling system" of sorts, that takes ancient stuff and deconstructs it so that the Mists can create new things - otherwise the multiverse of GW basically as the opposite issue of entropy, and the constant creation will simply fill up space completely eventually. Under that idea, then Soo-Won basically kittened with the very function of the multiverse by trying to create something out of a system that is designed to destroy. Which would nicely explain Kormir's journal where she claims Tyria is destined to destruction no matter what.

Though it would make it a bit depressing as that implies that Tyria is in a perpetual tug-o-war with something that simply cannot (and for the sake of the multiverse, should not) be defeated.

5 hours ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

Konig and Sajuuk, I still appreciate your input. But please try not to response to each other?

Would love it if he stopped stalking me just to tell me I'm wrong to everyone else.

[Raffrey.5271]

10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

snap (too long :P)

 

I think Braham was certainly corrupted / bonded. To say he wasn't would contradict with Aurene's statements. At least some part of him should've been properly corrupted, or, it was required for him to channel Primordus' magic in such a scale. If this is not the case, he should be weaker than Ryland, since the bond can't be formed properly. We had evidences(?) that ley-lines magic can be used to cleanse dragon corruption, particularly in Siren's Landing, where we used ley-lines magic filled organ to reclaim risen corpses. Also, Braham had great spirits' help. Due to all that, he could be the historic first case of a living thing being corrupted and cured.

And no, I don't think Ryland's corruption was being undone. He should still have at least some level of Jormag's magic lingered within when Jormag died. Though I'm not quite sure if he'd survive from it if he didn't get slain. He likely would, I guess. Although weakened, he was still quite "lively" when we confronted him. But this would make dragon corruption curability before this seem weird. Or was it Jormag's corruption didn't require minions to be dead first?

Dragon corruption wasn't curable. Or rather, we didn't try to cure any before killing them first. There was many example of elder dragons directly corrupt living things and turn them branded / risen etc. But all are dead, except the Commander, Braham, Caithe, and maybe Navan / Kuunavang. And maybe Bangar? Is he still alive? Oh I just wiki'd it, yes he survived. (So Braham wasn't alone in the first cases of corruption survivor?)

I think if an elder dragon corrupted a living thing, so long the corruption didn't damage their body beyond recovery when being cured, it would be curable. If we know how, that is. So if the ices don't thaw fast, we likely won't see any more corruption survivor.

 

Kuda could make a great antagonist. I'd say she could even be the next forever immortal ultimate mega antagonist after Joko! Only a matter if the devs want it.

I mean, GO KUDA! Make Your Father Proud!! (insert encouraging cheers here)

 

For the Void, I think we need to first figure out which exists first: the Void, or the Mists.

If it was the Void, Soo-Won basically created literally everything by herself. If it was the Mists, your theories could be true. And yeah, for the Void being something so new, there isn't much to discuss. Can only wait for the story to unveil more.

 

edit to add:

Another reason the Void could be of universe / something cosmic: remember how we beat the Ravenous Wanderer with positive thoughts? It makes the whole thing reeks of law of attraction sentiment...

Just sayin'.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Raffrey.5271

[Kalavier.1097]

IIRC, they describe Kralkatorrik's body as being dead when Aurene and the Commander fly into his maw and destroy his heart.  I remember something about them bombarding his body/attacking him, and saying that his physical body had died. Implication to me was the islands of Dragonfall are still a thing, with Kralk's body being the central portion holding them together.

[ugrakarma.9416]

19 hours ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

Since the devs really want to move on from the dragons, I think I'll try to mention pre-EoD stuffs less, except Aurene (since she's still around and kicking) and Soo-Won (things about her still fairly recent). Also, I really wish Jormag and Primordus still has some part of body intact. So that the inquest, especially Kuda, can scavenge, make use of it, and succeed in making some real horror.

Anyway. On to the Void.

The Void is very weird. Soo-Won mentioned it was around from the very beginning when / before the world was born. There was a time when the Commander and Braham was displaced to somewhere in the outer space (seemingly). Fantasy fiction elements like elder dragons or magic systems aside, if Tyria is not some giant slab of land and sea glued to the back of some turtle(?), I'm going to assume its universe works very similar to ours.

I think one of the following could be true:

1. The Void is something like dark matter. Or something cosmic. And Soo-Won created a "Big Bang".
2. The space is very spacey, you know. What Soo-Won said could still be true if there was already a well established universe, and she was floating in the middle of nowhere. And she tumbled across a massive nebula, created a star system from it. The Void is that nebula and there was something malicious in it, which is what we are dealing with right now.

... I think I'm missing something.

Konig and Sajuuk, I still appreciate your input. But please try not to response to each other?

the Void is cliché plot, borrowed  from Hinduism/Budism.

U can see same way with Shurato(a hinduism version of Saint Seya) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_Heavenly_Sphere_Shurato ), and Avatar - Legend of Korra( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Korra ).

To sum up, in these mythologies theres a "primordial evil", and a "primordial good", light vs darkness.

In both Avatar, and Shurato, the "primordial evil" are in ancient, uncounteless times dormant state(this remember something?), and slowly come back, ppl don't notice it, just with time, many ppl become "contamined" with the "evil seed", as sign that "primordial evil" is near to make his "come back", if the "primordial evil" come back in full power, the world is doomed and a complete darkness era will begin. 

I didn't particularly like this direction, and i think the introduction of Void was unecessary, the old "tyrian cosmology" was more interesting and had more room for a more complex and less childish plot. You have Tyria and "the all", and dragons being a problem in the "machine", also perhaps some link to mists stuff(gods or whateaver).

I think a way to save this demon plot from a disaster, is link it to the mists and relate it to Menzies, absence of gods, Lyssa or whateaver. Also put Void plot on the freeze forever, its really unecessary introduce new layers of cosmical powers, "primordial evil". The gw2 mists  lore is very rich, everything needed are there.

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by ugrakarma.9416

[Kalavier.1097]

53 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

I think a way to save this demon plot from a disaster, is link it to the mists and relate it to Menzies, absence of gods, Lyssa or whateaver. Also put Void plot on the freeze forever, its really unecessary introduce new layers of cosmical powers, "primordial evil". The gw2 mists  lore is very rich, everything needed are there.

 

What demon plot are you talking of? The arc of the Wanderer, which has already been concluded?

[ugrakarma.9416]

6 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

What demon plot are you talking of? The arc of the Wanderer, which has already been concluded?

i dont really believe that is concluded.