When is necro going to be good?

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

On 6/10/2023 at 6:28 PM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Anyone who still believes this has been gaslit by the devs.

Necro will always lose a battle of attrition. Pretty much any class can outsustain necro with proper play by utilizing superior mobility, raw healing, and active defenses.

Necro doesnt have many ways to resustain its primary health bar on top of having to "sustain" its only active defense. You will run out of life force eventually. Meanwhile that mesmer just has to wait for its 20s invul chain to come off cooldown.

I still find it baffling how people believe this. I won't use the "gaslit" word because honestly, i've seen more players making that assumption by themselves over the decade.

That being said, it was a major meme here in this very forum that "NeCrO AtTrItIoN" was dumb because facetanking a game that hits upwards of 20k spikes with a small TTK like GW2 is a terrible idea, and both Thieves and Guardians did attrition better just by having active defenses. Hell, Core Warriors did it better when they had Mace-Shield back in the day.

Don't even get me started on the fact that we're the only class that have to have a mana resource ( besides thieves but that's a whole another topic ), and that mana resource both starts at low levels, requires charging AND gets drained by getting hit.

Hurr Durr SeCoND HeAlTh BaR

[Obtena.7952]

22 minutes ago, Shadowpeixera.2918 said:

I still find it baffling how people believe this. I won't use the "gaslit" word because honestly, i've seen more players making that assumption by themselves over the decade.

That being said, it was a major meme here in this very forum that "NeCrO AtTrItIoN" was dumb because facetanking a game that hits upwards of 20k spikes with a small TTK like GW2 is a terrible idea, and both Thieves and Guardians did attrition better just by having active defenses. Hell, Core Warriors did it better when they had Mace-Shield back in the day.

Don't even get me started on the fact that we're the only class that have to have a mana resource ( besides thieves but that's a whole another topic ), and that mana resource both starts at low levels, requires charging AND gets drained by getting hit.

Hurr Durr SeCoND HeAlTh BaR

The baffling part is how people continue to play the single class that works like this and complains about it.  This second health bar thing doesn't work for people? Then those people are just making bad choices. The theme is just not going to change. 

Don't like the 2nd health bar theme? Then move on people.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[The Boz.2038]

Remember kids! Never buff stuff! Just stop using it! 

smh, some people...

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The baffling part is how people continue to play the single class that works like this and complains about it.  This second health bar thing doesn't work for people? Then those people are just making bad choices. The theme is just not going to change. 

Don't like the 2nd health bar theme? Then move on people.

I like how under the pretense that you know what you're talking about...you really don't. People like the class for different reasons, they DEAL with the mechanics and changes. Some like the theme/aesthetics , some like the weapons, some like the playstyle. Not everyone has to like everything the class has to like the class itself, and this isn't the first time you argued something vague like this just to make your quite honestly stupid point. You go on the Warrior forums and you'll see how many of them enjoy the theme, the aesthetics and had to deal with several baffling changes over the years, ranging from completely niche/useless weapons, to lack of identity, to weird design directions for their e-specs. None of them want to stop playing Warrior, they want Warrior to get better.

We get it, Anet won't change, yaddayadda, you've been doing this for the past 8+ years now. Enough. Anet has the right to force bad gimmicks down our throats and we have the right to complain about it, which is one of the reasons why this forum exists.

And the problem isn't Lifeforce itself ( albeit it is a really weird design in this game ), but the fact that people still seem to think that Lifeforce is a defense mechanism, not a resource, which is something every Necro should debate against because it's just not true.

You don't really have to speak on matter you don't understand on care about. Put down the keyboard. We got your point years ago.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Shadowpeixera.2918 said:

 People like the class for different reasons, they DEAL with the mechanics and changes. 

Sure ... but we are talking specifically about the people that DON'T deal with second health bar here because they complain about it when it's not going away and they don't choose other things. Necro is always going to have a 2nd health bar function so as absurd as you think my response of "make better choices for yourself" ... it matches the absurdity of "Necro has a second health bar" complaint. The people you are talking about who ACTAULLY 'deal' with necro ... that's not about being gaslit ... that's about people playing things they like playing because they made good choices for themselves. 

The funny part to me is that you somehow compare the fundamental mechanic of Necro being changeable like warrior banners. That's not a valid comparison at all. Again, the answer to getting Anet to pay attention to a class and buff it isn't forum complaint counts ... it's in-game demographic data. If people are making choice that suit them the best, Anet will see what classes aren't being played and buff them.

The irony is that the people who play necro and don't like it ... are skewing the demographic game data in a direction that indicates it DOESN'T need a buff. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Jedrik.3109]

On 6/10/2023 at 11:50 AM, Shadowpeixera.2918 said:

Do we still pretend this is true, 10 years later?

With the exception of 2 seasons I can remember, when has necro not been meta or extremely serviceable in pvp and wvw? If pve my argument becomes stronger.

 

On 6/10/2023 at 3:28 PM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Anyone who still believes this has been gaslit by the devs.

Necro will always lose a battle of attrition. Pretty much any class can outsustain necro with proper play by utilizing superior mobility, raw healing, and active defenses.

Necro doesnt have many ways to resustain its primary health bar on top of having to "sustain" its only active defense. You will run out of life force eventually. Meanwhile that mesmer just has to wait for its 20s invul chain to come off cooldown.

I have never and never will "listen to the devs" on anything..

And if all the things you claim are true, then why has necro in some version seen play in high levels in every game mode and only not been meta a handful of seasons?

[Dadnir.5038]

14 minutes ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

With the exception of 2 seasons I can remember, when has necro not been meta or extremely serviceable in pvp and wvw?

Pre HoT. Necromancer had maybe a cumulated 3-5 weeks of glory in sPvP and that's about all.

But other wise you're accurate, necromancer seldom struggled to be "good" in competitive modes after HoT release.

In WvW, necromancer have almost always been meta as in this gamemode he barely got any true competition for the boon hate niche which is important there (and, objectively, even after this patch the necromancer will still keep it's crown of boon hate king in WvW).

Over the years, most complains related to the necromancer being "bad" in WvW have been about roaming and that mostly due to a matter of limited instant mobility (And Harbinger more or less solve these complains).

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 6/7/2023 at 7:00 AM, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

I can't do it, sorry. If I do, everyone is going to run it, and then ArenaNet will nerf it to the ground. I already see way too many Reapers popping out after a group wipe once or twice while fighting me.

Probably inevitable to be honest, so long as some facet of your build under-performs in PvE.  Then they'll rework it as a "buff" and gut all of the actual good mechanics behind it to give you alacrity or some kitten.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

On 6/12/2023 at 2:58 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

The irony is that the people who play necro and don't like it ... are skewing the demographic game data in a direction that indicates it DOESN'T need a buff. 

What in the name of Grenth are you talking about? There's a limit to how much your vague statements make sense, and they're breaking the barrier. Think before you speak, or just leave the debate. It's ok not to type.

8+ years of this, Jesus Christ.

On 6/12/2023 at 3:20 PM, Jedrik.3109 said:

With the exception of 2 seasons I can remember, when has necro not been meta or extremely serviceable in pvp and wvw? If pve my argument becomes stronger.

The reason why Necro has been strong is not because it's an "attrition class" ( it isn't, no matter how much people want it to be ), it's because they're the only class that counter a core system ( Boon/Condi ).

If Spellbreaker hadn't been nerfed several times in it's boon removal capacity, it would also be way more prevalent. In GW2, boons and active defenses are kings. Boons make your class extremely powerful, which in turn makes classes that counter them also powerful ( Necros ). But having active defenses is what makes a class competent into attrition, and that's not Necro. That's Guardians, Thieves and some Warrior builds. Thieves that shadowstep around doing spikes of damage denting your HP are doing way more attrition than a Necro will ever do by facetanking damage with their mana resource.

I've been a major hater of the boon-condi system for years now. It's literally Anet designing themselves into a corner. It's a highly dysfunctional system that brought us the "amazing" concept of Quickness/Alacrity 100% uptime, and now the entire game revolves around it.

My point isn't that Necro isn't good ( albeit i would argue it started being good because the game meta evolved into high boon upkeep, not because Necro itself is strong ), it is. But it's not an attrition class. Facetanking damage in GW2 gets you nowhere.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Shadowpeixera.2918 said:

What in the name of Grenth are you talking about? 

It's simple. I can't actually state it more simply that what you quoted. If people that don't like the class continue to play it, that skews Anet's demographics data.  Anet cares about how much people play a class/spec/whatever. I'm sure they measure that because they told us they do. I'm also sure Anet will change a class if it's not played enough because they told us that's why they have made changes to classes.

Therefore, a completely REASONABLE response to "Anet needs to fix the class" is "don't play it if it doesn't work for you". 

So this isn't a matter of me thinking before I speak or being vague. That's more you not understanding what I'm saying about how things work. 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Swan.9815]

21 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Therefore, a completely REASONABLE response to "Anet needs to fix the class" is "don't play it if it doesn't work for you". 

I enjoy playing necro, I don't enjoy playing other classes. You are assuming I want to play other classes or are telling me to stop playing the game entirely because I think necro could be better, that is UNREASONABLE. The way you want to play the game is not universal. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Swan.9815 said:

I enjoy playing necro, I don't enjoy playing other classes. You are assuming I want to play other classes or are telling me to stop playing the game entirely because I think necro could be better, that is UNREASONABLE. The way you want to play the game is not universal. 

I'm not assuming anything about you. I'm not telling you or anyone else to play other classes if you enjoy necro ... so what are you going on about here? 

Here is the reality ... if someone has to ask when Necro is going to be good and we are 10 years in, it's probably NEVER going to be good for them. It's pretty clear what the choices are for them, and those choices do not involve reliance on faith and hope.  

Edited June 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

On 6/12/2023 at 7:58 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Necro is always going to have a 2nd health bar function so as absurd as you think my response of "make better choices for yourself" ...

you're wrong again. the majority of necro elite specs does not have access to a second health bar.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

The majority of necro elite specs does not have access to a second health bar.

I'm not wrong ... what I'm saying is within the context of the discussion that apparently, you haven't been following. Of course not all the specs use the LF as a second health bar and I'm more than aware of that. The tasty part you missed is that my point isn't just limited to people who have a problem with LF being a 2nd health bar but I'm certain your motives to make this post have nothing to do with being on topic or part of the actual discussion. 

The idea you pull this statement out of context to make some pedantic argument is absurd but I'm OK with that because it's my pleasure to correct and clarify the discussion for you and  reiterate my point at the same time.  

If necro doesn't work for people, whatever the reason, including 2nd health bar, they aren't making good choices for themselves. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[goldengut.9134]

only 2 of the 4 specs have a second health bar and thats core necro and reaper.  scourge and harbringer do not have a second health bar they are basically temporary mana bars. me personally I've always liked the class and i will always play it. I'm not happy about the upcoming changes to the class because i feel like it takes away what a necro is. to me its the same as taking away thieves stealth or backstab ability. i mean coruption is what we do. i WvW alot and one think that i feel should be removed from the game is barrier or at least from WvW. but i would like to know is we literally have a skill called boon corruption will they change that as well? 

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

I was gonna engage your post in more detail, but as I know by now that is quite a waste of time.

The fact remains, you we're simply wrong. Let's see (again) what you wrote before:

On 6/12/2023 at 7:58 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

 Necro is always going to have a 2nd health bar function

Pretty clear cut case of you being wrong, since 2 of necro elite specs do not even have a second health bar. That fact isn't changed by your attempt to move the goalpost by retroactively invoking some alleged context.

Glad I could clear that up for you. But if necessary, I will repeat it a third time.

[Obtena.7952]

28 minutes ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

Pretty clear cut case of you being wrong, since 2 of necro elite specs do not even have a second health bar. 

Within the context of the discussion being had here, it isn't wrong because that discussion was limited to a statement someone made specific to 2nd health bar and that's what my statement was referencing. Your lack of consideration of that reference doesn't make me wrong. 

The fact remains that the point I made still stands, regardless of any incorrectness of a statement I made when taken out of context of the discussion. When is necro going to be 'good'? For some people, it will never be good. They need to make better choices for themselves. If necro isn't good because '2nd health bar', then the people who think that need to assess how they conclude they want to play necro specs that use LF as a 2nd health bar. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Swan.9815]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not assuming anything about you. I'm not telling you or anyone else to play other classes if you enjoy necro ... so what are you going on about here? 

I would like Anet to fix the class, you think it's reasonable to say don't play it then, which either means don't play the game or play a different class. You claim you are not telling me to play other classes, so you are telling me, reasonably somehow, to stop playing the game then? 

[Obtena.7952]

46 minutes ago, Swan.9815 said:

I would like Anet to fix the class,

Me too ... but I'm not under any delusions that '2nd health bar' is on the table as one of those things just because it doesn't work for some people. 

46 minutes ago, Swan.9815 said:

you think it's reasonable to say don't play it then, which either means don't play the game or play a different class. 

Because it is reasonable. Somehow you convinced yourself that making better choices is unreasonable for the people that have problems with getting 2nd health bar to work who continue to play necro with 2nd health bar. How do you come to that conclusion? Do not sit there and tell me people making appropriate choices isn't a reasonable response in an MMO where the devs provide lots of choices for varying gameplay for exactly this reason. 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Swan.9815]

41 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, yeah. What's so unreasonable about making a choice from the remaining options if someone decides to not play necro because of 2nd health bar? I don't get your point here ... like somehow people making good choices for themselves to find something that works for them ... is unreasonable in a game where the sole purpose of players having choice is to be able to choose? Like ... OK. 

Wow, what a pivot. There is nothing unreasonable about making your own choices, but that's not what we were talking about. We are talking about how you think that telling people who would like Necro fixed to just stop playing Necro is not a reasonable statement.

You think the reasonable response to:

On 6/14/2023 at 10:18 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

"Anet needs to fix the class"

is:

 

On 6/14/2023 at 10:18 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

"don't play it if it doesn't work for you"

What if I believe that Anet needs to fix the class AND the class does work for me? Both things can be true. That is why I am saying that your statement is not the pinnacle of reason you think it is.

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, Swan.9815 said:

Wow, what a pivot. There is nothing unreasonable about making your own choices, but that's not what we were talking about. We are talking about how you think that telling people who would like Necro fixed to just stop playing Necro is not a reasonable statement.

 

From where I sit, that's the same thing because there isn't some restriction on when people can exercise their ability make those choices. That's exactly what I'm talking about. People find out they don't like something. It's not unreasonable to choose a new option at that point (which appears to be what's intended by all the options we have in the game).

I mean, you can pretend we are talking about whatever you want ... I'm being clear about what I'm talking about. In case you don't understand, here you go:

The options for 'this thing doesn't work the way I want or doesn't work for me so Anet needs to fix it' is to choose another thing. There isn't anything unreasonable about that because people not liking something isn't a trigger for Anet to cater game design to those people. That includes anyone that can't get 2nd health bar necro to work for them. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Swan.9815]

 

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I mean, you can pretend we are talking about whatever you want ... I'm being pretty clear.

Everything I've said has been about the statement:

On 6/14/2023 at 10:18 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Therefore, a completely REASONABLE response to "Anet needs to fix the class" is "don't play it if it doesn't work for you". 

You are the one who keeps trying to change what you and I are talking about away from that statement.

 

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Swan.9815 said:

 

Everything I've said has been about the statement:

You are the one who keeps trying to change what you and I are talking about away from that statement.

 

OK believe what you like. I'm being very consistent here. There are lots of reasons to exercise choices we have in the game. Things not working for people or don't work the way they like are not suddenly excluded from those reasons to exercise making choices. Everything I've said is about that statement too. Just because someone thinks something needs to be fixed doesn't change the reality that their options are all about making choices from the options available to them. There is no conflicts in what I'm saying here. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Swan.9815]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm being very consistent here.

You started at telling other people if they think necro needs to be fixed they should just stop playing necro.

After getting called out on the absurdity of that you pivot to players have choices in the game.

You bossing others around and players having choice are not the same thing.

[Obtena.7952]

43 minutes ago, Swan.9815 said:

You started at telling other people if they think necro needs to be fixed they should just stop playing necro.

After getting called out on the absurdity of that you pivot to players have choices in the game.

It's simple. If you are a person who is playing something that you think Anet needs to fix because it doesn't work for you or doesn't work the way you think it should, then your options are 1) keep playing it 2) play something else or 3) don't play. There is no 'pivoting' going on here because telling someone to play something else because 2nd health bar isn't going away is inline with those three fundamental choices.  I excluded the first one specifically in this case because if someone decides to continue playing 2nd health bar necro even if it doesn't work for them and they think it needs to be fix, then it's not actually the big problem they claim that Anet needs to fix in the first place. 

If you think there is a option 4) complain until Anet changes it to work the way you think it should or so it works for you ... that's not realistic. 

But for fun, here is a scenario:

Player 1: OMG 2nd health bar necro is the worst and Anet needs to fix it

Player 2: What do you play?

Player 1: I play second healthbar necro, Why you ask?

Player 2: 🤨

Edited June 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952